Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Christine Ding — Wed, 23 Feb 2011 18:44:19 GMT

I was part of the pilot group of people working towards the Cert AVP with Vet Learning and Middlesex University. I completed the certificate, with distinction, in 2009. Middlesex, although not a "veterinary" university runs many courses for professionals engaged in work-based learning.

My reasons for starting the certifiacte were many and various. Having been in practice for over 30 years I was feeling jaded, as though it was a downhill run to retirement and oblivion. When I graduated certificates had not been invented but by the time they became established I had a family to organise and a practice to run. Our practice did not have the throughput of cases to allow me sufficient scope to undetake a more specialised certificate but internships at universities or larger practices were not practical. I am sure that this would be the case for many people in practice. However, I was keen for academic challenge. The Cert AVP is admirable in that it is ideally suited to people in practice. It is flexible, both in subject manner and approach. It can be general or specialised according to the needs of the candidate.

Initially the whole idea of "reflection" on my actions was alien. The language of the booklets that accompanied the course was incomprehensible, using modern jargon that I would previously dismissed as "woolly" nonsense. Learning groups were held initially and provided much needed group support but I found the best way to get started was to submit a "stab" at an essay and then to use the comments and feedack from my supervisor to help me work out how a topic should be aproached. My supervisor was excellent. As I got more used to the concept of "reflection" I was able to understand better how to approach each module. Middlesex provided 2 sessions to introduce us to the C modules but otherwise I worked away at it with the help from my supervisor, e mail contact with other candidates and occasional learning group meetings. There were periods of time when I didn't do any work for months and others when I working on it almost continuously. Of the 12-15 of us that started 1 person completed the certificate within weeks. I and one other progressed through the modules over two years before gaining our certificates. The remainder dropped out for various reasons, mostly family related. Although the cost was significant I believe it compared satisfatorily with the costs of other CPD such as BSAVA congress and 1-2 day courses, particularly considering the extensivre feedback from my supervisor.

I have heard criticism that the certificate is not "academic" enough. The skills I learnt were, to a large extent, those required by any vet working in any sphere. I had been "reflecting" for years, without actually realising. Anyone who has had one of their first bitch spays bleed will have reflected on the reason for this and, hopefully, adjusted their approach. The certificate formalises this process and in the general sections helps to develop personal and practice-wide methods of achieving continual development. In the Small Animal module I wrote about my own cases and the way I had dealt with them . I then included background reading on other treatments but was able to explain why these were not used. We do not live in an ideal world. Many methods discussed by lecturers at BSAVA congress etc are just not suitable in practice, either for reasons of cost or practicality. Some owners will give their cat 8 different tablets daily and bring it in for weekly blood samples but for many cases the treament plan that is followed is arrived at jointly with the owner. Comparing what I had done with "best practice" encouraged me to keep reading and learning but I also had to acknowledge how I then adapted my knowledge and used it in practice. The Clinical Audit and Consultation Skills modules developed this even more. Rather than learning how to deal with specific cases I actually learnt how I should keep on learning and using my knowledge. In my opinion this is a more useful skill. Many people already develop these skills after a few years in practice but not everyone does. The certificate formalises and recognises them.

I think this type of qualification is ideally suited to someone who has been working for 5-10 years, so that they have the practical background on which to base their work. It will then develop the skills and techniques that they can adapt and build upon for the rest of their working life. I found it very worth while. Those of you who are working on it - keep going - you will get there in the end.

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 16:17:01 GMT

[quote user="Jill Maddison"]this is a fight to take to the[/quote]

I am not fighting but when I see this self-serving nonsense being recycled I do get a little tetchy.

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Jill Maddison — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 14:31:53 GMT

Malcolm - at the risk of attracting even more crossness from you and I do hope I won't get called a civil servant again (pushy, loud mouthed, annoying, bolshie, misguided, ivory tower occupant ..... OK....... but civil servant! - oh the shame ] but I guess I have to take the rolls with the punches if I do stick my head above the parapet. And as an Aussie battleaxe I don't back away from a frank and open discussion.

they are even more time consuming (again confirmed by our assistants' experience)

Yep - agree - they are more time consuming as Modules A and B have been added to the C modules which pretty much represent what the old certificates were. Can’t and won’t deny it. This also contributes to the extra assessment cost. Question is – is it worth it for the individual and the profession to have practitioners develop greater understanding and skills in areas of veterinary practice not related to their specific discipline without detracting from the standard to be achieved in the actual discipline? I guess that’s the core of the argument for and against.

and that they are very bureaucratic and academic.

Depends on your definition of academic. If you mean that the candidates for Module A are being ask to write about (or discuss - depends on where they are being assessed) issues that aren't directly related to their preferred discipline (surgery, medicine, ECC etc) and to reflect on issues of importance to veterinary practice or their role as a veterinarian in the profession and society - then yes they are and it can be an uncomfortable experience. But does that make it academic or bureaucratic? The topics relate to ethics, animal welfare, business and personnel management, clinical record keeping, veterinary legislation etc. Module B candidates are being ask to write about the major areas of practice (medical problem solving, anaesthesia principles, surgical principles, diagnostic imaging in their practice, therapeutics) not just their preferred discipline area. Does that make it academic or bureaucratic? I am not sure either of those words would be descriptors I would choose. If they are described as irrelevant I would question that judgement about what makes a successful veterinarian and veterinary practice but each to his own. As certificate (old or new) candidates are not studying to become discipline specialists and will not achieve a specialist qualification then it is the ethos of the CertAVP that an "advanced" practitioner will be well versed in all areas of practice relevant to them as a general, not specialist practitioner.

The whole point of the change was to improve accessibility and take-up by practitioners yet there seems to be rather widespread discontent,

There are over 800 people currently enrolled on the CertAVP and they have enrolled over the past 3 years at a rate of about 250 a year. Enrolments for the old certificate were 229 in 2005, 244 in 2006 and 413 in 2007 (presumably a big jump as this was the last year enrolments on the old cert were accepted.). So – take up would seem to be pretty much the same between the old and new system.

not least at the fact that the cert is now eye-wateringly expensive.

Depends on your definition of eye watering. Spread over 3-5 years (the expected average time to achieve a CertAVP) the assessment costs for 6 modules (at the RVC and Edinburgh) are between £500-£833 a year. i.e. about the average or less than the CPD allowance in many practices. Clearly candidates may want to also attend CPD to support their study but it is perfectly possible to achieve a CertAVP (as it was for an old certificate) without attending any specific taught courses. The RVC does not usually run any specific CertAVP courses but does run (as do other providers) CPD that is beneficial to candidates in their preparation. We (RVC) offer RVC-enrolled CertAVP candidates substantial discounts on CPD that considerably offsets the cost of assessment should they wish to take advantage of this. This applies to both online and onsite courses so is not geographically restricted. Costs at other institutions include specific taught courses which candidates may or may not wish to take. The costs of learning support (online, library access) are included in some enrolment fees and not in others. So it can be very difficult to fully compare actual costs though I entirely accept that it is about twice as expensive to be assessed in the CertAVP as in the old certificate (but with the caveat of the comments below).

believe that it is equally silly to suggest that an academic or even a university clinician is an appropriate person to be judging on questions of general practice. I note that names and CVs are still not forthcoming.

When the questions relating to general practice are about ethics, animal welfare, business, legislation etc. why is it suddenly that only general practitioners are the most suitable people to be assessing this? Why is it not reasonable to ask people who have a specific interest and knowledge of these areas to be assisting practitioners in developing higher knowledge and understanding of such issues? We currently have 22 staff members assessing Module A essays and 8 assessing B modules. I can certainly supply you with the list of names should you wish to contact me directly (jmaddison@rvc.ac.uk) and you will be able to check their CVs on our website. Our external examiner is a very experienced general practitioner who keeps a very, very close eye on the assessment process and whether assessors are expecting too much or too little of our candidates.

The old cert was effectively self-funding and represented excellent value for money.

I'm sorry but this is simply not true. From my discussions with the RVCS it is clear that the fees charged were not sufficient to provide a robust quality assurance process that is standard practice for any assessment at universities and I would hope we would want for a professional qualification. Various costs were subsidised by universities e.g. providing rooms for assessment and providing staff for assessment during normal working hours (who were also being paid examiner fees by the RCVS) and examiner fees were modest - too modest for many specialists whose time is increasingly valuable. My understanding is that had enrolment continued post 2007, the enrolment fee would have risen proportionately during 2008-2011 (probably £550 by 2011). The exam fees are likely to have doubled were the exams to continue past 2012, as the level of honoraria paid to certificate examiners has been quite an issue. RCVS tell me that they would have needed to increase the exam fees significantly to cover administration costs and examiners’ honoraria, plus likely increased university charges for providing facilities for the examinations (given current climate), and related increase in VAT.

In the old certificate there was a very high failure rate with candidates giving up or withdrawing with nothing to show for their efforts. Many paid enrolment fees of several hundred pounds but then never bothered entering the exam for assessment. Many paid around £700 for exam entry, but failed with nothing to show. The failure rate for some disciplines was extraordinarily high and the 5 year limit was a real barrier for anyone taking a career break for any reason or taking longer than they planned to get the work done. At least with the modular system over 10 years, you stand a better chance of achieving something for your money even if it turns out not to be the full certificate for some reason. Every piece of work submitted for assessment (at the RVC at least) can be resubmitted for re-assessment should it fail. A completion certificate just is issued for every successfully completed module. This was not the case in the old system – if you failed your case book you were out – end of story. But it is obviously way too early to be able to compare completion and pass rates in the new CertAVP with the old certificate. There may be no difference but I hope this isn’t the case.

A political decision was made to replace the old cert and not to introduce the new alongside. Another political decision was made that the new certs would be run exclusiviely by the universities. The same decision makers dictated the time frame.

Was it entirely political or could there have been some real concern about the educational aspects and outcomes of the old system and a real concern for the future of the profession? I doubt it was entirely driven by political motives (that would be an awfully depressing thought!) but I wasn't involved in the original decision and as I said - this is a fight to take to the RCVS not the Universities.

The Cert AVP has the potential to very good but it needs to be very much more open to criticism and draw on a very much wider range of experience and expertise than is currently the case. ..... At present we are hearing far too much "spin" about how very very good the A and B modules are ........

I entirely agree - hence my attempt to be as open and honest as I can in this forum and in print. As the director of the largest CertAVP assessment centre for the past 3 years I think I have a pretty good idea of the issues facing candidates – both good and bad. Do I think every candidate is transformed by doing Module A and finds it beneficial? No. Do I think there are many candidates who do find Module A of some benefit - from a little to a lot? Yes. Are there some candidates who find Module A of enormous benefit? Yes. Are they the majority? Probably not. Do I think the vast majority of candidates benefit and recognise that they benefit from Module B-SAP? Yes. Do I think that the balance between the work required for Module A and the rest of the certificate is quite right? No (personal opinon). Do I think Module A should be abolished - absolutely not. And I am coming from a place where I was implacably opposed to its very existence when I first became involved with the CertAVP.

I have every hope that as more people complete the CertAVP they will be in a position to be mentors and examiners where appropriate. I hope that the RCVS will be open to reviewing problems and concerns and making changes should they be needed (but everything has to be given time to settle in and the real impact assessed). Active and constructive dialogue in any forum is always to be welcomed and I hope our exchange has been useful for the silent forum readers out there.

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 09:47:14 GMT

[quote user="Jill Maddison"]Malcolm - don't shoot the messenger.[/quote]

The eternal chant of the civil servant without whom no policy could ever be enacted. It was you who chose to put your head above the parapet.

[quote user="Jill Maddison"]suddenly have no currency in your eyes?[/quote]

I neither said nor implied that. I still do not know who these people are so I am in no position to comment on their suitability for their role. I examined several cert and diploma examinations but that does not automatically make Cert AVP material (despite the fact that unlike your academics, I have extensive experience of working in and running a general practice). However, the fact remains the main political arguments that were ranged against the old certs was that they were too expensive; they were too time consuming to tackle from practice and that they were too "academic". My point is that all I hear about the new certs is that they are even more costly (I know that for a fact as we are funding some of our assistants certs); they are even more time consuming (again confirmed by our assistants' experience) and that they are very bureaucratic and academic.

[quote user="Jill Maddison"]The CertAVP won't work for everyone but neither did the old certificate.[/quote]

The whole point of the change was to improve accessibility and take-up by practitioners yet there seems to be rather widespread discontent, not least at the fact that the cert is now eye-wateringly expensive.

[quote user="Jill Maddison"] How many general practitioners were examiners in the old system?[/quote]

Silly question. It would be entirely innappropriate for a general practitioner to be examining a candidate in ophthalmology or orthopaedics. I believe that it is equally silly to suggest that an academic or even a university clinician is an appropriate person to be judging on questions of general practice. I note that names and CVs are still not forthcoming.

[quote user="Jill Maddison"]it is not nearly as bad as you think[/quote]

You have little notion of what I think!

[quote user="Jill Maddison"]Quite frankly in the current financial climate with the staff and resource cuts we are experiencing plus the fact that the CertAVP at best breaks even [/quote]

The old cert was effectively self-funding and represented excellent value for money. Those involved with the old certs were also working with a belief that it was " a valuable professional development activity" and doing so for considerably less than £45=00 per essay. If the universities have got their sums wrong then that is their fault and an error for which I have little sympathy. A political decision was made to replace the old cert and not to introduce the new alongside. Another political decision was made that the new certs would be run exclusiviely by the universities. The same decision makers dictated the time frame. The whole thing has been, and to some extent continues to be, a shambles.

[quote user="Jill Maddison"]Give it a chance.[/quote]

I am giving it a chance - I am continuing to support my assistants financially and in other ways with their studies. I am fully engaged with the concept of certs and have been for many many years. The Cert AVP has the potential to very good but it needs to be very much more open to criticism and draw on a very much wider range of experience and expertise than is currently the case.

The focus should be on the practitioners who want a well thought out Cert qualification. At present we are hearing far too much "spin" about how very very good the A and B modules are, and too much bleating about how difficult it is to run a training business on only £45=00 an essay.

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Jill Maddison — Mon, 21 Feb 2011 18:50:20 GMT

Malcolm - don't shoot the messenger. Your beef is with the RCVS not the Universities. We are just trying to make the system work. However, I firmly maintain that academics are just as able to assess the topics in all modules as private practitioners. Many of the examiners for the old certificate in the areas we are accredited to assess were clinical academics - how come they suddenly have no currency in your eyes? How many general practitioners were examiners in the old system? I think you will agree that a large number were specialists either in private or academic practice. The syllabus for every CertAVP C module was developed by the RCVS subject boards - exacty the same people who were involved in the old certificate. The syllabi for Modules A and B were not and they in fact are far more relevant to the whoe spectrum of general practice than the C modules and were developed with general practitioner input. There are general practitioners on the CertAVP subcommittee who keep a very beady eye on issues and speak up loud and clear when they feel the CertAVP is not meeting the needs of general practice or might be difficult to achieve from general practice. I myself work in general practice and always have done so despite being an academic. Most of our examiners had experience with the old system. The failure of the old system to achieve robust and consistent assessment that was educationally sound and fair across all certificates as well as the huge difficulty the RCVS had in recruiting willing examiners who would work for relatively little payment is one reason - but by not the only one - that it was not a sustainable system.

The CertAVP won't work for everyone but neither did the old certificate. And I can assure you that there are a growing group of practitioners out there who readily admit that whatever their initial reluctance was about engaging in the new certificate, they and their practices have benefited enormously from completing Module B and some even admit this in relation to the dreaded Module A. And I am not sure who it is self serviing - certainly not us at the RVC! Quite frankly in the current financial climate with the staff and resource cuts we are experiencing plus the fact that the CertAVP at best breaks even when all costs are taken into account means that we are certainly not in it for anything other than a belief that it is a valuable professional development activity that benefits the veterinary profession. As I said - it ain't perfect and it will take some bedding down but it is not nearly as bad as you think. Give it a chance.

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Malcolm Ness — Mon, 21 Feb 2011 18:02:54 GMT

[quote user="Jill Maddison"]all senior academics at the RVC[/quote]

One of the major criticisms of the old certs was that they were becoming to far removed from practice, too "academic".

[quote user="Jill Maddison"]All for £45/essay [/quote]

The old cert exams were marked for a very small fraction of this cost.

The new certs have yet to prove themselves. Given the massive escalation in costs to candidates and the reported increase in time commitment which, if this and other similar discussions are to be believed, is already putting many prospective candidates off: they might struggle to succeed.

There was an unholy and entirely unecessary rush to do away with the old certs and install the new. The ensuing chaos is disgraceful. Weasel words along the lines of "the system is what it is and we must work with it as best we can" are patronising nonsense.

I have asked before and I will ask again. Who are these "senior academics" and what experience and expertise do they have that marks them out for this task. Specifically, what do they actually know about general practice?

It is truly regrettable that a generation of aspiring certificate candidates is being so badly let down by a dysfunctional and self-serving system.

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Jill Maddison — Mon, 21 Feb 2011 16:28:40 GMT

Hi - have taken a while to respond to this but have been reminded by the latest posting. There are many issues with the CertAVP and I hope that some of you have taken time to read my article in the Vet Record recently where I have tried to be as honest as I can (and still remain collegiate and not get sued ). I can't defend all of it, freely admit it is not perfect and acknowledge there have been teething problems - some of which contributors to this forum have experienced for which I have previously and continue to apologise for. But I am still firmly of the belief it is an advancement on the old certificate system and of benefit to the profession for a variety of very important reasons and am incredibly encouraged by the positive response of many of our candidates - particularly in relation to B-SAP - but also the A module. The RVC firmly supports the ethos of the CertAVP that for the veterinary profession to stay current and deal with the complexities and challenges of the 21st century, professional development has to be more than just focusing on enhancing discipline specific skills.

However, notwithstanding the above qualifications, I do have to take issue with the statement that Module A and B are cash cows for the Universities. I continue to be puzzled why vets are always complaining that the public don't understand that vet fees just reflect true costs yet cannot apply this thinking to activities they themselves have to pay for. The Module A assessment fee at the RVC is £450. For this fee 10 essays are marked by 10 different examiners - all senior academics at the RVC. They may be double marked if there are any issues or re-marked if the candidate fails their first submission. The assessors take between 30 and 60 mins, sometimes longer (for very poor essays) to mark each essay and provide feedback. In addition, the running of the programmes requires a not inconsiderable administrative burden to ensure thorough and robust processing of the essays as well appropriate quality assurance. The essays have to be processed when they arrived, checked (they are often not correctly titled, are over the word limit etc), saved in the correct place, documented on relevant spreadsheets, checked for plagiarism, sent to the assessors, collected back from the assessors (sometimes not an easy task when very busy academics are involved!), marks recorded and collated, discussions with the chief examiner where needed, candidates contacted, examiners board meeting to be held, and much more. The module leader spends many hours setting the essay topics each year and finding and briefing suitable examiners. And of course as well as the staff costs involved there are the usual overheads to be covered - electricity, phone, IT support, room costs etc. All for £45/essay – not a great deal more than the price of a 10 minute clinical consultation at most practices.

Given the level of academic and administrative resource required I hope you agree this is a pretty reasonable fee and in fact can't possibly cover the costs - which it doesn't. The Universities do get some government funding for the CertAVP (as it is a proper higher education qualification) and it is only this funding which allows us to break even in terms of the our Cert AVP activities - I can assure you there are no cash cows mooing on our campus. The risk of higher education funding cuts are real - you don't even want to think about what this will do to CertAVP costs should they hit the funding that currently supports the CertAVP - I am just suppressing the thought for now. And remember - the Universities did not design the syllabus of any module - we just have to assess what the RCVS has told us to assess. Personally this is not how I would have designed the process but the system is what it is and we must work with it as best we can. We at the RVC passionately believe in the benefits to the individual and the profession of lifelong learning. In the interests of enhancing our profession through accessible opportunities for focused and structured professional development, we are doing our very best to make the CertAVP system work for as many candidates as possible.

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

sarah mason — Sat, 19 Feb 2011 21:40:28 GMT

[quote user="salome2001"]

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]

Cost is dramatically higher than the old style certificate, standards are lower and cllinical relevance is debatable. Not too impressed with the modular cert and wishing I'd done the old style when I still could.

[/quote]

Absolutely agree. I looked into doing a Cert AVP when the RCVS finally deigned to agree that a feline only qualification was acceptable, but am completely put off by the cash cows that the A and B modules are for universities and the fact that only half the certificate is clinical knowledge. Neither do I want a collection of letters that correlate to paying a CPD company a lot of money for a course and doing an "exam" at the end. So I'm back looking at a Membership from the Australian College. It might not be RCVS recognised, but at least I'll actually know something relevant.

[/quote] I disagree, I am submitting C modules this year alongside a colleague who is doing the old style medicine cert. My supervisor is an experienced old style supervisor and has told me he thinks the course work is easily equivelent. Where the old cert requires 8x1500 word case reports, the new one requires 9 and in addition to that 3 reflective essays. I consider my reports to be of an equal standard to those of my colleague. I have found working towards the AVP-SAM very clinically relevant and while the B module did prepare me for this. A is also relevant to professional skills

I agree-the cost is much higher.

Can you tell I am in the process of finalising the course work-too much time being distracted by forums

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

sarah mason — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 22:28:17 GMT

I did module A with the RVC without support and it was fine. Marking was done on time. I also did the 2 B modules. The one with case reports again was fine, although I think it would be nicer to provide at least 1 example to get people started (without having to pay for support). The B module with the exam was a massive joke and embarrassing-the questions were repeated over again and some of them did not actually have a correct answer (as it was an open book exam it was particularly easy to see this). Also lots of food production questions on the SAP module-did not expect that.

I am now doing the C modules in SAM. So far going ok, the B module prepared me for the case reports etc but again an example would have been good. The online support is not worth paying for. Jill Maddison is good but one of my main criticisms is how late they tell you the exam date-my rota is done 4 months in advance and have to travel to London for this. It shouldnt be that hnard to fix a date.

A few friends have done module A with Liverpool and are happy with it, I preferred not having weekly tasks-with RVC you can do it in your own time.

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Nick Graham — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 18:38:33 GMT

Someone emailed me a few of the documents the SA module B people get at london- you guys actually get some support! Will try to "reflectivize/ justifcationize" a case report, send it off and see what happens. Anybody on here done module B (BEP3 equine) at all? If so any pointers?

Many thanks, Nick

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Nick Graham — Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:59:26 GMT

Hi Rach[quote user="Rachael Winder"]

Hi,

I've joined this thread quite late and in the middle of my CertAVP experience. I completed modules A, B0 and B1 with RVC. I think I found the Blackboard support useful iniitally, primarily as a way for all those who were the original guinea pigs for the A module to chat about how we hadn't a clue how to approach the seemingly irrelevant A essays! By the time I got to B modules, I had virtually stopped using the discussion boards, as I felt I didn't really need them anymore. Certainly I would agree with a previous post, that having the involvement of Jill Maddison in the area of work makes a huge difference- her constructive criticism of my B module essays was hugely helpful. However in other subject areas, the help was pretty much non-existent. Having Athens access was again much appreciated.

I am enrolled for the 3 SAM C modules with RVC but have not opted to pay for the additional learning support. Although I have done several eCPD courses with RVC and have never failed to be impressed with them, the learning support for the CertAVP didn't on the whole seem worth the extra money. I am actually quite content thus far with working through the syllabus on my own- though only time will tell whether this is a wise course of action or not! However I would love the idea of a list of people willing to act as mentors, and will follow this thread with interest...

Rachael.

[/quote]ael

As someone who's very recently started Module B(3) with the RVC (having struggled through A with them) I was interested in your comments. I'm interested in the fact that you said that you'd stopped using the discussion boards by the time you got to B- maybe there's something on them for the SA module B but there is not a single post, not even any one introducing themselves, for equine (!!). Well, I'm just about to put a "is anybody out there" post on it. All we have got is a "model" answer which gets a mark of 58% but they state it doen't really fulfil the needs of a module B case (not enough reflection/justification).. which I agree with having read the module document. What the point of putting up a model answer that is not the sort of thing they want to have handed in?? Given multiple people failing module A essays for the simple reason of "being insufficiently reflective" I think that handing in an essay along the lines of the model answer might well result in a fail. Is there a (reflective/justification- filled) module B model answer for SA Module B on blackboard? If so could someone email it to me!

Also interested to hear that constructive criticism of module B essays was helpful- but isn't it a bit late by then? There is no provision for plans according to the syllabus, just submit a finished essay. No news as to whether they can be resubmitted but assume they must be. Takes 10 weeks to get marked so have to submit one as a tester and waste even more time or risk sending them all at once and having to resubmit them (injured and off work for a bit).

I do agree that athens access is invaluable both for work and certAVP and would too love to see a list of mentors! There is a fair bit of mentoring going on with the yahoo group but only for module A so far.

Thanks, Nick

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Rachael Winder — Tue, 19 Oct 2010 22:12:50 GMT

Hi,

Rachael.

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

salome2001 — Wed, 22 Sep 2010 14:49:00 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]

[/quote]

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Romain Pizzi — Fri, 17 Sep 2010 23:29:15 GMT

Malcolm,

I too do wonder what the profession will make of the new CertAVP qualification once the dust has settled on it after the initial few years . While the old certificates and RCVS diplomas were difficult and took considerable work, they did make it possible for a motivated individual to climb to specialist status from practice. While I did benifit from a residency, many others managed to further their knowledge, and careers through sheer determination and hard work, mainly from practice (and spending regular time with specialists). Now, unless one decides relatively quickly after qualifying (and without huge student debts) exactly what one wants from their veterinary career, and persues a residency early on, it is almost impossible to become a recognised specialist - it is very difficult for someone in their late 30s to decide with a familly to support, to go back to university and do a residency. I feel this is a great pity, with more and more younger diplomates having never done a days first opinion practice work in their lives - how can they relate to their first opinion colleagues, that they depend on for their business? Many of the best referral practitioners I know have spent many years in first opinion practice before specialising and hence bring much practical common sense and understanding to their discipline. The profession does seem to poorer for loosing this.

It almost seems the "market" senses the possible weakness of the new CertAVP, with a host of other competing post-graduate qualifications springing up (latest appears to be BSAVA...) - indeed, what is the benifit of the RCVS qualification at all, when there is no perceived route of possible progression. Perhaps some vets feel this qualification may almost just be profiteering on the part of the universities. Of course only time will tell if veterinary practices do come to value those with the CertAVP, and this manifests in higher wages, better conditions, and increased job satisfaction, or if once the initial sense of achievement wears off, those who have undertaken all this work, are left with little more than 7 extra letters after their name.....

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Emma Howarth — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:20:50 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

I am intrigued by this thread.

As a long term advocate of the old certificates and one of the "dinosaurs" who was ousted by the new regime, I acted as adviser (is that the same as "mentor"??) which, like all other advisers, I did for free. The old certs were self programming - to paraphrase a previous contributor, it was assumed that the candidates wouldn't need their hands held/bums wiped - and the course of study was as cheap or as costly as you wanted to make it. Now we seem to have a Certificate Industry organised around the fiscal needs of the "Providers" with the needs/wants/aspirations of potential candidates becoming side-lined.

Who is it in the universities that is deciding what should be in the syllabus and marking these non-clinical modules? (I would like to see names and CVs) How, and against what criteria, are they judging the performance of the candidates? It concerns me that a university employee (the term "Academic" is frequently abused in this context) so far down the pecking order that they are instructed to "look after" the Cert AVP modules probably has very little insight/understanding/experience/expertise of general veterinary practice.

The last time I was involved with surgery cert exams we had more than two dozen candidates make it through to the clinical/practical part of the exam yet I now do not know of a single candidate doing surgery as part of the cert AVP - are there any of you out there? Has surgery just got unpopular or are there other explanations??

If Cert AVP is to fulfill its promise (??hype) then I would have expected to see rather more candidates involved than seems to be the case, I would not have expected to be reading the kind of comments to be found in this thread and I would not have expected to have heard the discussion between two of my assistants comparing notes as they wrote the overwhelmingly silly (compulsory) essay required by their (obligatory and fee paying) involvement with RVC modules.

[/quote]

Malcolm,

I am concerned that you feel "ousted". If the new system is to work it relies on people such as yourself acting as mentors (or advisors). A major reason for failure/drop out with the old style certificates was candidates "going it alone" and it's likely to be exactly the same with the Cert AVP.

As regards to staff involved, the B Module which I have just completed at the RVC was overseen by Dr Jill Maddison. This involvement would appear to be real as opposed to nominal : she would often reply personally to any e-mail queries I made. A look at her CV would suggest that she is well qualified for the job. I cannot comment on the syllabus for surgery, but the syllabus for medicine is an exact copy of that for the Cert SAM. The only difference is that there are now in total 9 detailed case reports instead of 8 and 3 reflective essays as well as the traditional case log and exams.

There are likely to be fewer candidates for surgery in the next year or two as people work through the A and B Modules. I don't think surgery is any less popular a subject.

I would be interested to know how people such as yourself feel that the system needs to be amended, in order that you would be satisfied. If the New style certificates are not valued by clinicians then they are not worth the paper they are written on and candidates such as myself are being failed. I would suggest perhaps a board of clinicians for each subject acting as "external examiners" for the RCVS and verifying the Universities are working to the standards you require. Something we should suggest to the RCVS, perhaps?

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Marie Kubiak — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 13:50:04 GMT

I did my A and B modules with the RVC who were not helpful in the least. Module A essays were so difficult to interpret in the way they wanted without paying for the extra assistance. The module B was a joke - I never received marks after my case logs were finally assessed (several months late when the only examiner had apparently gone AWOL!!!), one essay for module B was never marked. Any communication was met with the verbal equivalent of a shrug of the shoulders.

I switched to Edinburgh for the C modules and they were so helpful and pleasant I was shocked! I cannot fault them.

I am now still waiting for the RCVS to get organised to do a synoptic paper. They say maybe next year... Or maybe not.

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Camilla Edwards — Thu, 09 Sep 2010 08:24:06 GMT

I have just been looking at Middlesex actually, but they seem very expensive! And obviously not a veterinary university, so not sure about it. It sounds like maybe, the best option for me is to stick with the RVC - the grass is always greener though!

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Charlotte Marshall — Wed, 08 Sep 2010 22:33:49 GMT

I did my A and B modules with Middlesex. I did find that after the initial surge the feedback on the message boards was not as good as the tutors did not comment on it. However you could post your essays for the coordinator to comment on at any stage. That was useful from the reflective point of view but she was not a vet. However when I was having difficulty they did arrange for me to speak to one of the vets involved quite easily.

I have just enrolled for my first C module (feline medicine) with Edinburgh now they are up and running again so I shall have to see what the support is like! I am a bit worried about trying to find a mentor though.

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 08:43:00 GMT

I am intrigued by this thread.

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Rob Reid — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 21:40:58 GMT

[quote user="Emma Howarth"]I would agree that a good mentor is the way ahead. Anyone willing to help me? PLEEEEASE!!![/quote]

I'll second that for SA medicine - though it does look like a SamSOC membership could be a good investment!! (though likely not starting C modules for a wee while yet)

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Emma Howarth — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 21:24:23 GMT

Hi All,

I've done the A and B-SAP Modules with the RVC. I would agree with Rob that they aren't particularly expensive CPD, especially if you think about the initial set-up costs which must be involved and the fact that they have dedicated administrative staff. I would definately agree that the Blackboard support could be much better, especially in terms of given better guidance of how to focus an answer, as the word counts for these essays are very tight: around 1000-1500 words (speaking to most friends doing Masters in Medicine related subjects they seem to get significantly more). The support does seem to be developing, though- there is much more on there now than there was when I started at the beginning of last year, so hopefully they'll get there in time. I don't think giving guidance on how to structure an essay would amount to significant bottom-wiping.

As for the C Modules, there is virtually no involvement in the discussion board (maybe the new Yahoo group will be better?). There are some cases to work through and review your knowledge. Would really like to see some guidance how to shoe-horn a well worked up medical case into 1500 words max. For anyone else doing the Cert AVP SAM, there are some notes available on the SamSOC Group page on how to write a casebook for the Cert SAM. I guess the CertAVP requirements will be along the same lines, presumably. You need to be a SamSOC member to access them, but it only costs £25, I think, so good value for money.

I would agree that a good mentor is the way ahead. Anyone willing to help me? PLEEEEASE!!!

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Roberta Prina — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 20:16:26 GMT

[quote user="Kate Dawes"]

A mentor would be useful, but as above I'm not sure how to go about finding one.

[/quote]

I went at a CPD on emergency medicine (the field of my certificate) at the RVC. After the course I wrote to one of the lecturers asking if she knew someone in her field who could be interested in becoming a mentor. She sent me the email addresses of three of her colleagues. I wrote to them and one of the three agreed to be my mentor

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Kate Dawes — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 09:42:17 GMT

I don't think any of us expected our hands held/bottoms wiped! The module A (at RVC anyway) is not a taught course, and was well aware of that when I started. I am willing and happy to put in a lot of hard work on my own (and have done already, it just doesn't seem to be getting me very far sometimes!). It is just frustrating as Camilla said to have chosen to pay extra for support that hasn't really materialised. The idea of 'reflective essays' is something that is a bit alien to us all, and unlike the previous certificates there are no 'past papers' or previous candidates submissions available to look at to see what the assessors are looking for. A mentor would be useful, but as above I'm not sure how to go about finding one.

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Rob Reid — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 09:35:46 GMT

Ok here's where I get the brickbats. I am actually quite happy with the RVC assessment!!

I agree the Blackboard is pretty useless - mainly because so few people use it. I agree with Michael though that I don't really think you need that much tutor input and perhaps we shouldn't be expecting too much. A lot of what the A module is trying to achieve is to get you to think and reason for yourself given all the arguments presented, while learning from this experience, hence all the emphasis on reflection.

The online support provided through tutor assessment of essay plans is enough to address any concerns in my opinion. And I have certainly benefited from having ATHENS access - not just for this module alone but for other clinical matters as well.

Maybe I am not so cynical about the cost issue as my practice has kindly funded it all for me but I wouldn't say it is overly expensive, especially when you consider the cost of some 1-day CPD courses through other providers.

It is interesting to hear other peoples thoughts though, especially as I have just signed up to the B modules and also from people who have started the C modules.

Re: Which university is the best for CertAVP?

Camilla Edwards — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 07:49:08 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I won't take it personally.[/quote]

Thank you! :-)

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I don't mean to be rude, but we are grown up, professional people. How much support should we need or expect? The old certificate system candidates were left to get on with it themselves, with a previous cert holder to read through cases. I don't think we should expect our hands held and bottoms wipes. If that is required to get through the certificates then maybe the candidate isn't ready? If they aren't a challenge and don't require the candidate to have developed since graduation then what's the point in having them????

I don't mean to be harsh.It does worry me if every vet in 10 years has a cert, they are totally devalued.

[/quote]

I do agree with you on one hand, but a lot of us at the RVC paid to get support which hasn't really proved at all useful. Also is it not tricky to find a mentor as not many people have actually completed the new Certificate? I was wondering if any vets on here would be willing to mentor people doing the Certificate similar to the new graduate mentoring system on Vet surgeon?

Camilla