Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Bob Russell — Sat, 28 Aug 2010 10:28:58 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Probably clinical matters should be strictly vet only but other posts can be open to everyone. Love to have the VMD responding to our posts.....

[/quote]

They wouldn't dare!!!!

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:33:32 GMT

I'm going to start a new thread for the subject of a vet only forum ...

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Anthony Todd — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:20:25 GMT

Probably clinical matters should be strictly vet only but other posts can be open to everyone. Love to have the VMD responding to our posts.....

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Bob Russell — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:05:37 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I don't rule out a vet only area - but concerned that it will be divisive and kill off the 'open air' section. Thoughts??[/quote]

I think the forum should be all Vet only. It was with that understanding that I joined under my own name. I am a member of a number of other forums but always under a pseudonym.

This really deserves a thread of it's own?

[/quote]

I stand by all my posts as being suitable for public viewing however a lot of comments can be misunderstood or misrepresented. Perhaps it is time for this to be discussed in more depth. If vet nurses cannot access the website why should non-vets have free reign?

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:34:38 GMT

I'm happy for relevant journalists to have access, same with people in the veterinary industry etc. As long as we are all working within or on the outskirts of the veterinary profession. As long as the Daily Mail and Joe Public don't suddenly start appearing...

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:11:03 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I don't rule out a vet only area - but concerned that it will be divisive and kill off the 'open air' section. Thoughts??[/quote]

I think the forum should be all Vet only. It was with that understanding that I joined under my own name. I am a member of a number of other forums but always under a pseudonym.

This really deserves a thread of it's own?

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Anthony Todd — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:02:19 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]where euthanasia was the only option[/quote]

The full paragraph is even more ridiculous, in that he goes on to say "in cases of hardship......the use of a less expensive "human" formulation would, I am sure, be clinically [my italics] justified and unlikely to result in prosecution."

This makes a nonsense of his previous pious paragraph about all licensed medicines going through "rigorous safety, quality and efficacy " testing etc.which is why they must only be used etc. etc.

So if these "human" formulations are clinically justified in some condition where money is a problem surely they are just as "clinically" justified for all.

I suppose we will have to get the owner to sign something agreeing that, although the phenobarb, which their child is successfully taking is safe for it, the phenobarb the dog is now to be given may now be very unsafe, may kill it instantly, but is only being used because the only alternative is to kill the dog with a licenced barbiturate. In fact I had an alsation taking the owner's phenobarb purely because of cost [before the cascade, I add.]

Laughable, or as Ned Sherrin would quote "incredible beyond belief".

Obviously, hopefully and, in fact, surely, there is no risk as there is no difference.

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:56:16 GMT

[quote user="Jane Dunnett"]Just to note: comments I made on another thread were quoted in a VT article without my permission. In fact I had declined to give a quote when approached directly by the journalist in question so was slightly surprised to see my comments in print. However I do realise anything you say in a web forum is in the public domain so wasn't overly offended. It has though stopped me getting involved in any discussions recently. Would be really nice to have a section of the forum which is completely out of bounds to anyone other than actual veterinary surgeons.

[/quote]

I wasn't aware of the fact that you had been quoted without your permission. I'll take that up with VT next week, as it is a breach of copyright.

I don't rule out a vet only area - but concerned that it will be divisive and kill off the 'open air' section. Thoughts??

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:35:50 GMT

[quote user="Jane Dunnett"] Would be really nice to have a section of the forum which is completely out of bounds to anyone other than actual veterinary surgeons.[/quote]

Indeed it would.

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Bob Russell — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:09:02 GMT

Phil Sketchleys response was largely irrelevant to the petition as he was supporting the cascade (not a surprise considering the financial implications for the companies he represents).

The petition is not anti-cascade in principle but is fighting to allow a degree of freedom to prescribe as felt appropriate within a professional framework.

I was most surprised to see he was suggesting that vets would probably not be prosecuted where euthanasia was the only option unless less expensive human medication were to be prescribed! Since when has this been up to NOAH to decide (especially when IMHO rather stupid comments such as 'the animal should be re-homed with someone that can afford expensive medication' are being made by senior figures in the VMD).

I hate to say it but maybe it is time for vets to make such a decision and face the wrath of the VMD. Should a suitable case come my way I for one will be happy to act in a way that leaves me with a clear conscience. It would be interesting to see how the legal system would actually tackle such a potential prosecution.

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

jd2008 — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 17:33:58 GMT

Just to note: comments I made on another thread were quoted in a VT article without my permission. In fact I had declined to give a quote when approached directly by the journalist in question so was slightly surprised to see my comments in print. However I do realise anything you say in a web forum is in the public domain so wasn't overly offended. It has though stopped me getting involved in any discussions recently. Would be really nice to have a section of the forum which is completely out of bounds to anyone other than actual veterinary surgeons.

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Phil Elkins — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:03:41 GMT

Firstly, the implication of quoting without permission was not meant to be an accusation, i have dealt with Vet Times and Joel specifically in similar circumstances, and found them to be very professional in all matters. Secondly, the key point that was hidden behind my off the cuff remarks is that this site acts as a great forum for vets to voice their opinion honestly, and as such this acts as a great resource for journalism. Respect must go to VT for noticing this and I would say, IMHO, that this has lead to a bit more vet opinion led reporting which is good for the profession.

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Anthony Todd — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:37:39 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] I hope that the Phil Sketchleys of the world will just come and respond direct on VetSurgeon. Some already do.[/quote]

This is a problem that real journalists should tackle.

In the Vet. Times article Phil Sketchley says inter al " ....even if the active ingredient ..... is the same, often the formulation is different....."..

I think real journalists and publications must ensure that challenges are answered. A recent letter from the VMD in the Vet Times making these sort of sweeping statements which was challenged by me was not given "space" for publication.

Real journalists should insist that "space" is found.

I would ask Phil Sketchley to tell us exactly what differences there are between the common human generics and apparently the same drug in the same dose in the same tablet but with a veterinary licence.

And I don't want a chewable formulation quoted as evidence, just your common or garden pred., phenobarb., spirolactone etc.

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Mark Holmes — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:08:53 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Most vets in general practice are busy throughout the day, tired in the evening and unlikely to find the time or energy to get particularly active in veterinary politics. Many of those that do must have a lot of time on their hands - I certainly don't.

It does not mean I don't have very strong views on veterinary life - it is quite obvious to those that have waded through my many posts that I do!! Using a forum such as this gives me and many others a chance to discuss what we consider important in short bursts through our working day.

I would not have considered starting a petition (would not have had a clue how to do it without Arlo's help). I have written to the VMD to express my concerns regarding cascade and other matters and to their credit I have received a lengthy reply justifying their actions (in their view). I do not agree that the present system is suitable for the many difficult situations we find ourselves in each day as clinicians.

I consider it is absolutely right that journalists have observed the debates on vetsurgeon and taken up the discussion. I consider the articles in the Vet Times have been reasonably balanced, opinions taken from vets with assorted views, NOAH and the VMD.

Surely this is what good journalism is about. I do not expect it to change the world but from little acorns as they say!

Arlo, you should be proud of anything vetsurgeon achieves whether it is helping individual vets get a voice heard, have a good rant or discuss clinical cases. Posts here have assisted me with cases and boosted my self-confidence when running out of ideas. As a single handed practitioner it is very easy to become isolated from others in the profession.

[/quote]

I would agree, as someone who similarly works alone, this forum is a bit like having "instant colleagues" with all the differing opinions that brings.

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Bob Russell — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:28:12 GMT

Surely this is what good journalism is about. I do not expect it to change the world but from little acorns as they say!

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:43:24 GMT

[quote user="Phil Elkins"]You must be doing something right Arlo.[/quote]

I guess I must be (probably noone is more surprised about that than me!)

Tell you what, I'm enormously excited and more than a little bit proud of the fact that VetSurgeon has gone from being an irrelevance to something that seems quite regularly in the thick of the action these days.

Re: Does anyone do any real journalism these days

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:34:55 GMT

Hmm

I don't think it's fair to suggest anyone is stealing quotes. When quotes are used from VetSurgeon, it is with the author's and my permission. I think it would be more accurate to say that journalists use VetSurgeon (and VetNurse, for that matter) as a research tool. I don't think there's anything wrong in that.

But it is a very interesting point you raise about the impact of the Internet on journalism.

In the past, a journalist might get the sniff of a story, and then have to research it by picking up the telephone or doorstepping people. Few readers would know about the story in advance.

Nowadays, the story is playing out in real time online, and Bob's petition is a very good example of that (along with Panorama). Other veterinary journals may research and write the story, but by the time it has gone to print, the members of this site already know all about it.

Actually, that's not quite true. Where journalism does, as the Americans would say, add value, is in contacting the powers that be and asking them for their reaction. That's not something I generally have the time to do (my time is spent trying to make sure VetSurgeon remains the best platform to keep you all in touch with each other).

But for how much longer will that remain the case? In due course, I hope that the Phil Sketchleys of the world will just come and respond direct on VetSurgeon. Some already do.

Does that mean journalism is dead? I don't think so. I think there remains a place for feature journalism, whether delivered in a print magazine or an iPad. But I also think a lot of journals will need to think very hard about their content, and make sure it is different to the sort of content you will already have read (or indeed, generated) yourselves online.