A * Private school girls

Re: A * Private school girls

Louise Buckley — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:37:45 GMT

Did anybody watch the programme on TV recently (BBC 2 I think - may still be on iplayer) about 7 year boys being sent of to boarding school? These were all the children of weathy parents and the program really laid wide open the differential advantages open to the these children in comparison with state school children. These kids were being trained at the age of 9yrs in how to best portray themselves in the entrance interview for Harrow/Eaton, etc, being taught how to handshake, etc. These kids were far more self-assured and confident and eloquent than any kid of 9 years that I know. These kids are basically set up to make the most of any talent/skill they have - mediocre or not. Can the same really always be said for kids educated in the public sector? It is definitely not a level playing field and where you finally finish up in life is bound to be affected by this - I think we are kidding ourselves to pretend any different.

Re: A * Private school girls

Louise Buckley — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:28:22 GMT

It's a nice tale and very encouraging but the motto at the end isn't really summing up the whole of the story. Where you finished up isn't entirely up to you. Where might the headmaster's father ended up had he not been born to the miner? And, how quickly might he have ended up there?

Re: A * Private school girls

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:38:51 GMT

I went to a grammar school-state school, so I didn't cost my parents. We were however encouraged, the assumption was that if we were in the A stream, we had the ability to go to Uni-and those days, there were means -tested student grants, so finance was not a barrier

Our headmaster was a Cambridge English grad, who had gone through Uni in pre-grant days. He was totally open about his family history His grandfather gad been an ordinary miner. His father had started as a miner, had attended night school, and risen to be a colliery manager-earning enough to send both his sons on from grammar school to Uni. One ended up a headmaster, the other studied medicine,and was Dean of the med school at Edinburgh

In other words, where you finished was up to you

Wynne

Re: A * Private school girls

Andrew Kent — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:32:08 GMT

As a fairly recent graduate I have no doubt that vet schools are very female dominated and that there is a disproportionate number of private school students.

As somebody who went to both state and private schools I can honestly say that I would not be where I am today if I had not gone to private school and this was largely due to the career aspirations encouraged by my private school. At state school I didn't concentrate, and the class sizes were so large this went unnoticed. I don't think I would have been successful at school if this had continued. At private school it was geared towards everybody striving to get into university (rather than state school where you may be the exception) and it was simply a matter of which degree to apply for.

So why are so few boys applying? If I look at the people that I was at school with and were studying suitable subjects the majority of them went onto study business/economics/law degrees and there is certainly some temptation in that when I see the flash cars they drive now. I think there are also fewer boys studying science subjects at school now as they pick economics etc earlier down the years. Some years ago there was a policy called GIST (girls into science and technology) which changed the syllabus of science gcse's/a-levels to make them more appealing to girls. Perhaps it is now time to start a BIST policy?!?

Ultimately I am very thankful that I received a private school education because I am certain I would not be writing this now without it. But there are many school students (both male and female) out there with the academic and personal ability to become vets and they are being failed early on by not being given the information or drive to strive to achieve this. With current entrance requirements one has to decide by age 14ish that they want to apply to vet school in order to start the work experience etc. Unless career guidance and motivation is provided well before this then it can become a bit of an uphill struggle.

Andy

Re: A * Private school girls

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 12:12:20 GMT

Hmm - wondering whether this one is finally for the 'controversial' section!

I empathise somewhat with the original post, being a private school clone myself. I left school braying louder than a herd of donkeys, hanging out in one of 3 Chelsea pubs with the rest of the herd, driving the ubiquitous Peugeot 205 GTI, and unable to see beyond one of 3 possible career choices: the army, estate agency or being a stockbroker.

If I criticise my enormously expensive school for anything, it was for not opening my eyes to the fact that my expensive education (and I don't just mean the academic aspect of it) would give me a distinct competitive advantage outside the Square Mile, the Royal Hussars, or Foxtons.

But at that age, I'm not sure I would have listened to the advice anyway. I think one's decisions as a young man or woman are far more affected by peers and parents than a careers advisor.

So maybe there is some truth in Sandy's original post about vet schools filling with privately educated female clones. I don't know. I'd heard they were all heading off for a career in PR or 'medja'. Either way, isn't the question of how many people, of what sex are heading for a particular career more to do with the vaguaries of fashion than anything else. And what can be done about that, other than bemoan the fact (if you think it need bemoaning)?

Actually, I think the biggest risk in this discussion is of making sweeping generalisations, as I just have. Not every public school boy went off to the army or estate agency (though I don't suppose many can lay claim to a career in fleas, as I had). I'm quite sure that not every public school girl is heading off to vet school, or that those who do will necessarily be bad at the job.

Must say, I didn't think it was particularly representative to single out Vee Sethu to illustrate the point, or the later suggestion that 'Asian girls intend never to work'. But I guess all our opinions are formed by our experience, and you don't have to agree with Sandy's. Doff my hat to MeerM for so eloquently putting her counter-experience.

Gillian, in the nature/nuture debate, I firmly believe that we are not all blessed with the same cognitive, academic and social abilities. On the contrary, I think we are all wired (chemically or cellularly, if that is a word) differently, with different natural abilities (or lack of). I believe that nuture (or ambition, for example) can overcome a lack of ability. I absolutely hate numbers. Loathe them. Innumerate. Now thaht I have children, 'Numberjacks' brings me out in a cold sweat. Still, my ambition to become a commercial pilot helped me to pass one of the most numerically challenging qualifications there is.

Perhaps we should return to the main thrust of the original post, which is whether the system is failing boys, and what can be done about it, than race or class, which is surely rather incidental.

Re: A * Private school girls

Sandy Edwards — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 23:22:27 GMT

[quote user="Martin Jones"]

[quote user="Sandy Edwards"]

it wasnt a retort...it was a fact ...and you ?

[/quote]

No, it was an embarrassing set of ramblings and non-sequiturs, which didn't make any sense. As to prejudiced, clearly you have a stick up your bum about aspirational, successful, 'A* Private school girls'. I'd take another 11 days, if I were you.

[/quote] how rude. How very rude psml !

Re: A * Private school girls

Gerry Henry — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:37:18 GMT

Stick to your guns Sandy.

Re: A * Private school girls

MeeraM — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 23:51:46 GMT

What has being Muslim got to do with all of this?

I don't often feel the need to hit the prejudiced/racial button, but the fact that you condemn Public School girls via one Indian person (when your argument is inherently flawed by the fact that ethnic minorities are so poorly represented in our profession) and then also bring your daughter's ex-boyfriend into this who happens to be Muslim........? Actually, I found you vaguely amusing to begin with and now I just feel saddened and a little sick that an educated profession such as one holding a Veterinary Medicine degree could turn out to be SO bigoted in their views.

Gosh. I am genuinely surprised and a little disgusted/hurt. Almost wish I'd chosen medicine now (if I didn't have such a passion for all things equine)

Re: A * Private school girls

Martin Jones — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 23:10:55 GMT

[quote user="Sandy Edwards"]

it wasnt a retort...it was a fact ...and you ?

[/quote]

Re: A * Private school girls

Sandy Edwards — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:51:17 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Sandy Edwards"]I dont think talking to my comp educated daughter , who managed to get into dental school, second hand conversation , her last, muslim boyfriend has had to do a pharmacy degree to get into dental school.....me predudiced ha ha ........[/quote]

You had 11 days and that was the best retort you could come up with?

[/quote]

it wasnt a retort...it was a fact ...and you ?

Re: A * Private school girls

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:46:06 GMT

You had 11 days and that was the best retort you could come up with?

Re: A * Private school girls

Sandy Edwards — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:38:33 GMT

[quote user="Martin Jones"]

[quote user="Sandy Edwards"]

Sadly , and this is true , a lot of the ethnically Asian girls intend never to work.

[/quote]

Oh, Sandy. How could you say this? Where is the truth? Where exactly is your evidence? Second hand conversation filtered through an apparently prejudiced mind? I'm embarrassed for you.

[/quote]

I dont think talking to my comp educated daughter , who managed to get into dental school, second hand conversation , her last, muslim boyfriend has had to do a pharmacy degree to get into dental school.....me predudiced ha ha ........

Re: A * Private school girls

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 11 Sep 2010 08:39:55 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]Ah, ignorance, not simply a different perspective. [/quote]

–noun

the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

No - I meant ignorant.

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]I don't think I said anywhere in my post that I wanted to encourage 'white working class people' into the profession, perhaps you imagined that bit, or perhaps you just made it up. What I said was that post grad students were noticably better than the first timers. [/quote]

That is the subject of the thread. As you are in agreement with Sandy, I assumed you felt the same.My apologies If I misunderstood. But my question remains - how would they afford it?

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]I see you have over six hundred posts to your credit, busy lady. [/quote]

erm. OK. I'm a quick typist. Not sure what that statement was for. Please explain.

Re: A * Private school girls

Fiona French — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 21:39:05 GMT

[quote user="Martin Jones"]

'Get real'? Are you SURE about that one? Are there any streets where you live? With people under 65? Round here they say things like, "I is taking all your money now, innit, or I is cutting you", but that's the brutal reality of life in rural Cornwall.

[/quote]

Beautifully put Martin, genius!

Re: A * Private school girls

Gerry Henry — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:56:27 GMT

Ah, ignorance, not simply a different perspective.

I don't think I said anywhere in my post that I wanted to encourage 'white working class people' into the profession, perhaps you imagined that bit, or perhaps you just made it up. What I said was that post grad students were noticably better than the first timers.

I see you have over six hundred posts to your credit, busy lady.

Re: A * Private school girls

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:17:42 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]Based in Edinburgh I see dozens of vet students wanting to see practice, the overwhelming difference isn't between gender but between first timers and those who have already done a degree, the latter being HEAD AND SHOULDERS above the former. Nobody should even get an interview for vet school without a first degree in a related science.[/quote]

I find most of your post shows your ignorance. But this beats the rest. How would you suggest that the people you say you want to encourage into our profession, white working class people, would pay for this?

Re: A * Private school girls

Gerry Henry — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:36:02 GMT

Touche!

Re: A * Private school girls

Martin Jones — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:27:22 GMT

Bumhead.

Re: A * Private school girls

Gerry Henry — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 14:54:40 GMT

Bore.

Re: A * Private school girls

Martin Jones — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 13:44:29 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

God what a lot of bruised tulips we have in the profession these days. To the 'Deeply offended' in our ranks I would say toughen up, or if you prefer the argot of the streets, 'Get real'.

[/quote]

Now let's get one thing crystal clear, 'Gerry': comparing me to a bruised tulip is offensive and lazy categorizing. Everybody knows that tulips are work-shy gigolos who only work two weeks a year and spend all of their time promising everything but failing to deliver. Send 'em back to Holland, I say. I'm more of a dahlia, or possibly a gladiolus: full of myself, but undeniably pretty.

Actually, what Sandy says offends me because of the way he introduces the notion of truth from second hand comments that have then been given a going-over by his inherent attitude. I think MeeraM has nailed him beautifully and eloquently on the point of racism and is more qualified than most to do so. Imagine if people started to believe in treatment modalities based on such reasoning, rather than on repeatable, honest evidence. Oh, wait a mo......

Seriously, though, I do love the denigration of a couple who got three of their kids into med school. Most of us would consider that a raging success and endorsement of our parenting methods, but that must only apply to 'proper' British people. My parents both came to England from the Welsh ghettos in the 60s and no doubt pushed me through Vet School to stop the neighbours from graffiti-ing the front door. It didn't work, though - people just thought we were getting uppity and above ourselves.

Bless you, daffodil

Martin

Re: A * Private school girls

Gerry Henry — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 11:08:43 GMT

God what a lot of bruised tulips we have in the profession these days. To the 'Deeply offended' in our ranks I would say toughen up, or if you prefer the argot of the streets, 'Get real'.

I found Sandy's post refreshingly honest. I have a family of asian clients, three smart kids, 2 female, 1 male, all doing medicine for the wrong reasons, i.e. status. Is this confined to Asian families, no, but it is a feature of insecure, 1st generation immigrants (I'm thinking of my own parents here).

Privately educated clones, they're everywhere, look at the banking sector, but the independent schools also produce excellent innovators, it depends on the school. I've privately educated both of mine because the alternative was awful, and no I'm not wealthy, its been a real struggle.

Based in Edinburgh I see dozens of vet students wanting to see practice, the overwhelming difference isn't between gender but between first timers and those who have already done a degree, the latter being HEAD AND SHOULDERS above the former. Nobody should even get an interview for vet school without a first degree in a related science.

BTW the system is grossly unfair to boys (I have girls), if it went the other way we wouldn't hear the end of it.

Just my two cents.

Re: A * Private school girls

jd2008 — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:43:39 GMT

I have no first hand knowledge of the private school system having no children and having attended a good old 'comp' myself. However I have worked with many, many vets from many differing backgrounds and can say that those of Asian and Oriental backgrounds have had probably the best work ethic of them all - often far outstripping their western male and female counterparts.

Re: A * Private school girls

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:27:16 GMT

I agree with Malcolm, as I'm the product of the old grammar school system. My parents couldn't have afforded a private education. Now it's much more a post-code lottery. The good comps are as good as the old grammars, but the bad ones are like the old sec mods, and a bright child from a poor area may not have the necessary teaching, or encouragement to do well

I also agree with MeeraM . Poor salaries, due to undercharging does put off both Asian, and white male potential applicants

Wynne

Re: A * Private school girls

Martin Jones — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 09:49:06 GMT

[quote user="Sandy Edwards"]

Sadly , and this is true , a lot of the ethnically Asian girls intend never to work.

[/quote]

Oh, Sandy. How could you say this? Where is the truth? Where exactly is your evidence? Second hand conversation filtered through an apparently prejudiced mind? I'm embarrassed for you.

Re: A * Private school girls

MeeraM — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 09:21:04 GMT

[quote user="Sandy Edwards"]Actually my White daughter is a minority in a dental school, Asians won't do poor paying jobs like veterinary as a rule . [/quote]

I agree with this; the veterinary profession does not appeal to most people of Asian or Oriental descent as there are better paid careers out there. Also, a veterinary degree in India and China is considered very much second-best to Medicine. However, the wages offered for veterinary graduates are also a reason for why European males choose not to enter our profession, so therefore the wage mentality is not race linked.

[quote user="Sandy Edwards"]Sadly , and this is true , a lot of the ethnically Asian girls intend never to work. By the way all of them went to girl private schools.[/quote]

I strongly disagree with this statement and feel obliged to speak against it.

I have a fair number of Indian female friends and family members. We are all currently employed, and we all intended to work when we left education. We are involved in a wide variety of professions ranging from mediocre wages to exceptionally well-paid. Our chosen careers include; Medicine, Science/Research, Law, Veterinary, Engineering, Teaching, Midwifery, Finance, Literature, Music and Media. Certainly, not all of us went to single-sex private schools. We all have one thing in common though; we all work extremely hard to prove ourselves in our chosen areas, sometimes battling against racial and/or sexual prejudice and occasionally having to defend ourselves against unfounded assumptions such as that held by yourself.

How many Asian female friends do you have, who would be willing to support your statement and provide evidence that your view is indeed the case?

*steps off soapbox*