Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 04 Aug 2010 18:12:22 GMT

[quote user="jewel1973"]Why is that? i wonder??[/quote]

Nothing insidious. It is simply because I am building a community for veterinary surgeons here, not veterinary nurses. That's not to say that nurses aren't welcome. But if nurses outnumbered vets on this site, or shouted louder than vets in the forums, it would be quickly become a community for nurses, not vets!! You have vetnurse.co.uk.

Restricting access to the forums is the best way for me to try and get the balance right.

No conspiracy!

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

jewel1973 — Wed, 04 Aug 2010 18:00:04 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

(Michael- nurses don't have access to the 'big thread'. )

[/quote]

Why is that? i wonder??

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Rhiannon Stundon RVN MBVNA BA(Hons) — Sat, 31 Jul 2010 10:52:24 GMT

Bob Russell wrote:

"Arlo is not here to edit posts - only the original poster should be able to do that. A moderator is entitled to remove posts that appear to break the forum rules.

As the original poster you can always repost without the 'offending' parts.

Sorry Arlo I know you can look after yourself really"

I can't edit my post because it has been deleted.

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

svn — Fri, 30 Jul 2010 23:52:45 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="svn"]Because I have had incidences in the past (not on this forum I hasten to add), when I posted under my real name, and I am now somewhat wary![/quote]

This is the only forum where I use my real name. I do think on here it's quite important not to hide behind a cloak of anonymity.

IMHO

[/quote]

Fair enough, and if any regular users are curious enough to send me a PM requesting my real name, then I shall reply.

But once bitten, twice shy.

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 30 Jul 2010 22:39:00 GMT

[quote user="svn"]Because I have had incidences in the past (not on this forum I hasten to add), when I posted under my real name, and I am now somewhat wary![/quote]

This is the only forum where I use my real name. I do think on here it's quite important not to hide behind a cloak of anonymity.

IMHO

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

svn — Fri, 30 Jul 2010 22:25:34 GMT

[quote user="katja wagner"]

svn,why do you post anonym?

katja

[/quote]

Because I have had incidences in the past (not on this forum I hasten to add), when I posted under my real name, and I am now somewhat wary!

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 30 Jul 2010 16:58:52 GMT

Laughed out loud. Occasionally, I do just edit out the offending part of a post, it was just late last night, I was tired, and I couldn't muster enough active brain cells to decide exactly which bit to delete. But you are right, Bob, anyone is welcome to repost something.

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Bob Russell — Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:55:56 GMT

[quote user="Rhiannon Stundon RVN MBVNA BA(Hons)"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]In fact, I'm surprised Arlo hasn't deleted your post[/quote]

I have

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I'm hated! I'm hated! [/quote]

Oh God, we'll need an in-house VetSurgeon Victim Support Counsellor at this rate.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]a single malt awaits.[/quote]

Now there's a good idea.

[/quote]

Arlo I agree with svn, the work you do here is great, however I am very shocked that you deleted my post. Could you not have edited it instead? It had a lot of valid points and only one concerning sentence which I apologised for causing offence, furthermore I was quoting Evelyn who has then said the same thing about himself twice and subsequently! There are a great deal of posts on here which have caused me EXTREME offence! Will you delete those too? (I hope not - that would be ridiculous of course).

[/quote]

Arlo is not here to edit posts - only the original poster should be able to do that. A moderator is entitled to remove posts that appear to break the forum rules.

As the original poster you can always repost without the 'offending' parts.

Sorry Arlo I know you can look after yourself really

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Rhiannon Stundon RVN MBVNA BA(Hons) — Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:49:27 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]In fact, I'm surprised Arlo hasn't deleted your post[/quote]

I have

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I'm hated! I'm hated! [/quote]

Oh God, we'll need an in-house VetSurgeon Victim Support Counsellor at this rate.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]a single malt awaits.[/quote]

Now there's a good idea.

[/quote]

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

katja wagner — Fri, 30 Jul 2010 07:44:13 GMT

svn,why do you post anonym?

katja

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

svn — Thu, 29 Jul 2010 23:11:25 GMT

Just read that back - apologies for the sarcastic tone!

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

svn — Thu, 29 Jul 2010 23:09:59 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]In fact, I'm surprised Arlo hasn't deleted your post[/quote]

I have

[/quote]

I'm surprised you have Arlo

There can be some heated VN vs VS debate on here, and I welcome that - Debate is good!

The post you deleted (If I can remember), was a VN new to the forum, posting a heated reply - which she subsequently explained and apologised for

Now surely that doesnt happen in other forums - do all the posts with a passionate show of different opinion from the regulars get deleted in other forums? Certainly not on vet nurse.

Its good to thrash things out, anaonymously if the poster feels neccessary.

Got to add, Arlo, I love the work you have done on these forums - I was just very surprised you had deleted, and had to ask why?

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 29 Jul 2010 22:43:51 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]In fact, I'm surprised Arlo hasn't deleted your post[/quote]

I have

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I'm hated! I'm hated! [/quote]

Oh God, we'll need an in-house VetSurgeon Victim Support Counsellor at this rate.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]a single malt awaits.[/quote]

Now there's a good idea.

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 29 Jul 2010 22:32:57 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] I don't always agree with Evelyn-we differ on VNs. I am in favour of trained nurses, he is not,[/quote]

Eh? I'm all in favour of trained nurses. I'm not in favour of mini-vet nurses and I'm not in favour of the demeaning of nurses without paper qualifications.

I'm not in favour of nurses doing other tasks and the nursing not being done.

I'm surprised that qualified VNs actually seem to like being used as cheap substitutes for veterinary surgeons.

I've been through all this before and I can't be bothered any more.

I'm hated! I'm hated!

Now if you'll excuse me, a single malt awaits.

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Rhiannon Stundon RVN MBVNA BA(Hons) — Thu, 29 Jul 2010 21:21:29 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Rhiannon. I don't always agree with Evelyn-we differ on VNs. I am in favour of trained nurses, he is not, but you are not doing your profession a favour by saying "no wonder he is hated " In fact, I'm surprised Arlo hasn't deleted your post

Wynne

[/quote]

I'm sorry to Evelyn and to you for offending you with my comment Wynne. I was quoting Evelyn when I used the term "hated", it's what he said about himself I wouldn't have used the term otherwise, however my reaction to his comments was too strong. I was really taken aback by these forums, I had no idea these sort of negative opinions existed about VNs and I became rather emotional. Please accept my apology.

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Minnie — Thu, 29 Jul 2010 21:20:20 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Minnie I am in favour of proper recognition of veterinary nursing as a profession-but you can't "cherry pick " which bits of professional recognition/responsibility you go for-it's an all or nothing thing

[/quote]

I dont understand this comment - I agree with regulation, regulation for everybody that calls themselves a veterinary nurse (or Veterinary Nurse even if anybody wants to split hairs) BUT - and heres the rub how can this happen when a majority of nursing staff have had no formal training and therefore have no qualification and following on from that are not regulated?. How is it fair to regulate a minority of nursing staff and let everybody else do as they will? How is it right that a RVN can be struck off and be placed on the list ( which incidentally we were informed years ago had been closed to new entrants)and still be allowed to practice? There are too many varying standards, so yes I agree with your comment its an all or nothing thing - either everybody is trained and regulated or nobody is.

I will say that being a decent nurse isnt just about the schedule 3 , its as much about actually caring what happens to the patient you are nursing. Spending time making sure it is as clean and comfortable as it can be and that can be as basic as sticking it on a lead and taking it out for a pee or making sure it isnt laid on a sodden bed , keeping an eye on what it is eating or not , making sure it isnt too hot or cold, actually recognising subtle signs that say it is in pain. Yes Schedule 3 is mentioned many times but thats not all that this is about - because if everybody was playing by the rules schedule 3 would be carried out by qualified nurses, but we arent playing by the rules are we? In fact some people dont even know what the rules are unless God forbid we encroach on the rules that protect the rights of the veterinary surgeon and then there is no time wasted in making sure we know that.

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Mark Holmes — Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:15:23 GMT

It might be the law but logically why? A new grad VS can give incremental propofol but not a nurse with several years experience monitoring anaesthesia. I would agree that the anaesthetic regime should be a decision of the vet, but nurses can give IV injections safely manage anaesthetics and count sufficiently well to work out the correct dose of drugf to administer, or at least the risk is no different. I know of a DVA who has overdosed propofol in a moment of absent mindedness so don't think it cannot happen to us. I wouldn't agree with an animal being induced without a vet available for energencies but why the drama.

Equally why should iv cannulation, injection and blood sampling be limited to VNs, there is no such regulation in the NHS, you can be trained as a phlebotomist in a morning. The risks to the patient are minimal providing there is Vet or VN to oversee that they are adequately trained and before the VNs get overly worked up about you will see from previous posts that I support the VN profession entirely, I just think your value lies beyond dripping and bleeding.

To abide by the law does not mean you cannot question it. As far as I could see on panorama the untrained nurse did a perfectly good job of taking a blood sample. Quick efficient, minimum fuss, job done.

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Catherine Williams — Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:51:29 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

It seems as though I am the only one who can see that if the title Veterinary Nurse was protected, and reserved for nurses who had not only demonstrated initial competance by qualifying, but also were subject to on-going discipline and the possibility of striking off, (registered ) and listed procedures limited to these registered nurses, then Panorama's lawyers would not have allowed them to say that veterinary nurses aren't regulated

BTW The answer to who is allowed to give incremental IV anaesthesics is already crystal clear-veterinary surgeons, and only veterinary surgeons

[/quote]

Agree totally on both counts.

Protect the title of veterinary nurse and give it the meaning and respect it deserves but with the responsibilities for your actions that should go with taking pride in your job and confidence in the work you do.

and incremental iv anaesthetic, definitely the domain of the vet... sorry but that's the only way I feel comfortable with it. Only ever had a nurse give iv propofol once and that was when I was restraining an extremely aggressive (already heavily sedated but not asleep) GSD and she had to act as my hands...but it was with ml by ml directions! and that will be the only circumstances for me.

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:07:39 GMT

BTW The answer to who is allowed to give incremental IV anaesthesics is already crystal clear-veterinary surgeons, and only veterinary surgeons

Wynne

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:02:01 GMT

Wynne

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 29 Jul 2010 13:31:44 GMT

Veterinary surgeons have also worked very hard for their qualifications, but our degrees do not allow us to practice, they allow us to be registered, but if we fail to pay our membership fees, or misbehave then we lose the MRCVS, and so the right to practice

Allowing listed VNs to perform the same procedures creates an Orwellian "some more equal than others " situation, where VNs are more equal in being allowed to continue to perform listed procedures, regardless of subsequent conduct, while veterinary surgeons are not

My own RVN qualified in 1998, so could have chosen to remain listed, but has chosen to be Registered

Wynne

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Rhiannon Stundon RVN MBVNA BA(Hons) — Tue, 27 Jul 2010 23:11:34 GMT

Okay I've just read the other post with Michael's choice VN comments...goodness me, I hope we've managed to persuade you Michael that in a modern, progressive small animal practice there is a place for a veterinary nurse profession? Perhaps it has no place in your practice but with increasing public awareness in the veterinary profession as a whole, we will doubtless see owners choosing practices on account of their qualified veterinary nursing staff as well as the veterinary surgeons there.

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Bob Russell — Tue, 27 Jul 2010 13:47:39 GMT

[quote user="Claire York RVN MBVNA"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Vet Nurse Auxiliary - NVQ qualified 'nurse'?

Vet Nurse - graduate degree holder?

[/quote]

Why do you feel NVQ Qualified Vet Nurses are so inferior to degree VNs?

[/quote]

NVQ qualified nurses are not inferior to degree VN's.

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Holls — Mon, 26 Jul 2010 23:40:48 GMT

[quote user="Holls"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]If there truly is a ceaseless tide of cheesed-off, understimulated nurses, the blame might lie with those who raised their expectations too high in the first place. [/quote]

Well I have to say there may be some truth in that- to some extent I was told that once I got the hallowed badge and certificate doors would be open to me etc etc.

[/quote]

And I forgot to mention that it was a vet that mentioned the hallowed badge would open doors to me, but thats by the by.

Re: Panorama... a vets view to a nurse...............

Shona McLachlan — Mon, 26 Jul 2010 23:37:09 GMT

Ooooooo do not tell my other half he will have to do a degree course to be a "proper Veterinary Nurse" - that NVQ qualification took 5 long years to earn. He believes in proper nursing - sitting with that hospitalised animal hand feeding it until it is eats enough, taking time to assess the animals pre and post op to ensure their pain managment is adequate, making sure that it is clean and happy and treating them like what they are - some-ones dearly loved pet. As it he has more bonded clients than some of the vets! He did most of his training at one practice and within 18 months of qualifying he is now acting head nurse shared duties with another RVN to cover maternity leave. He still believes nursing is above all a CARING profession - what is the point of having a degree to let you do all these exciting extra things when the basics of animal care get left by the way side.

Vets, RVN's, VN's, reception staff and auxillary staff are all part of a team. We all work together to help both pet and client. I cannot live with out my RVN - she makes up for all social inadequacies as a vet- hysterical clients and small children still un-nerve me! I send her a variety of clinic cases and encourage her to find her own as a good practice nurse will bond more clients to the practice than any number of miracle working vets. My branch never works to its full potential if she is on holiday.

In short nurses - be they RVN's, VN's green book portfolio or degree are essential to good veterinary practice.