Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Lucie Allcutt — Fri, 16 Jul 2010 01:10:16 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

A true American Pitbull Terrier is obviously much more massive and longer legged that either a dodgy SBT cross or an American Bulldog

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Maybe that's where I've gone wrong - I've yet to see any real English Staffies in the flesh - I've been going off of pictures where I can't quite tell how big they are.

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Lucie Allcutt — Fri, 16 Jul 2010 01:02:56 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Lucie Allcutt"]Maybe I am being very thick - but is there *really* a way to tell the difference? [/quote]

Easy. Try to restrain both breeds. With one you will get a wriggly dog and possibly a bite. With the other you will be lucky to come away with all your limbs.

The true pit-bull is inherently aggressive and are not appropriate pets for anyone.

[/quote]

I will also have to agree to disagree! Florida is *bursting at the seams* with Pit Bulls and in fact many of my former classmates have Pit Bulls or Pit mixes as beloved pets and I - having actually had the chance to restrain *many* - have found them to be no different from any other large, powerful dog (saying they are inherently aggressive actually made me grimace as it strikes me as totally off the mark - the aggressive Pit Bulls I've seen have been *trained* to be that way, IME they are not naturally aggressive dogs). Actually, they can be quite wriggly and sweet and I think they are much nicer than many large powerful dog breeds I've encountered (fearful GSDs come to mind...) but that can obviously be a matter of opinion!! Much of the mythology surrounding pits is perpetuated by the scum-of-the-earth that run dog fighting rings and the media.

Also thanks to the unsavory nature of some of the population in the county that the University of Florida is located in, I have actually seen dogs that were involved in dog fights (we are also taught to recognize the characteristic wounds and scars obtained in "battle" and in training) and while many of those dogs have to be euthanized quite a few are rehabilitated and rehomed successfully.

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

sophia guymer — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:21:58 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]

We are NOT obliged to inform the police legally, if we were to consider informing the police in this scenario we would first have to contact the RCVS professional conduct team re breaching client confidentiality as he voluntarily gave us this information

[/quote]

We had the same situation with a foreign client (italian I think) one day, bringing in his 'pit bull puppy'. We went through the above procedure and did phone the police as were worried that if the puppy turned out to be a pitbull it was obviously locally bred and this would possibly point towards dog fighting being alive locally (quite possible in this area). The police had NO IDEA what to do and didn't think it was anything to do with them!!!

Thankfully it was just a communication problem, just as the other vet on this thread mentioned, he thought all staffies were pit bulls. It is now a lovely staffie!

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:45:33 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]

My point simply was that as a vet I think I'm less likely to get bitten by a pitbull than a GSD because they are so direct about it when they intend to bite you! It is that sudden snap that you get, without warning, from GSD's and collies that used to catch me out, seldom happens these days thankfully.

[/quote]

The problem with pitbulls is the power of their jaws and that they sustain their attack, GSDs and snappy collies tend to just... well, snap and your injuries won't be so severe. The 60kg Rotty that bit me once hurt though!! If you want something really evil: I was vet to some RAF police dogs once upon a time and they are EVIL, they are trained to kill and will given the opportunity yet with their handlers they are like lambs.

[/quote]

Well I'm very glad I've not been on the recieving end of such an attack.

Moving a little off topic - when I was newly qualified I was bent over palpating a bullmastiff's abdomen, a bitch I had seen a number of times before without any problems at all when she suddently spun around and went at me. The first snap missed but knocked me over onto my bottom and the second time she got me around the throat. I threw her off and she then bit me on the hand, all the while with the owner standing there frozen in shock. It was clearly a warning rather than a serious attack as if she had been serious I would quite simply have been dead - but the speed and unpredictability of it was absolutely terrifying.

I "took a moment" outside the room to recover myself and the boss came by and laughed himself silly initially as I literally looked like I'd seen a ghost, until he understood how close it had actually been!

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:17:21 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]

[/quote]

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Bob Russell — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:13:21 GMT

It is not our place to decide if it is a pit bull or not but if the owners says that is what it is then it is illegal to own and they need to be informed of that fact. True pit bulls should, in theory no longer exist so you are looking at a potential pit bull type.

It is the easiest thing to breed a pit bull type dog and we see numerous staffie crosses that might fit this description. If they behave well and have good owners there is clearly little problem. Bad tempers and bad owners are a dangerous combination.

It sounds as if this is a client you want to lose at all costs.

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:11:33 GMT

I have added now to my previous post (sorry!) - and we agree on frequency of bites, but it is the severity that worries me....

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:09:02 GMT

Happy to agreably disagree!

Pitbulls are big and powerul animals and I don't regret not having them around anymore. My point simply was that as a vet I think I'm less likely to get bitten by a pitbull than a GSD because they are so direct about it when they intend to bite you! It is that sudden snap that you get, without warning, from GSD's and collies that used to catch me out, seldom happens these days thankfully.

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:08:24 GMT

Living in an area where every other dog seems to be a Staffie and having a nurse/client who bred, judged and showed them I have seen enough to tell a pure bred SBT from look-alike cross-breed and something of the 'pitbull type'. Also I was heavily involved in the work required for dogs to be registered originally for the DDA - I tattooed, neutered, chipped and registered around 100 pitbulls as I was one of the few to have a tattoo gun. A true American Pitbull Terrier is obviously much more massive and longer legged that either a dodgy SBT cross or an American Bulldog and I would have no problems identifying anything adult considered 'a pitbull type' but it is going to be tricky with a small puppy. Of all the dogs I dealt with only one was truly aggressive and he belonged to a Mr T lookalike with a pimped up BMW so his occupation seemed obvious! All the others were just as friendly as your average SBT - it is the owners not the dogs that are the problem. That all said if someone was enough of a d1ckhead to bring one in I would say that he had no right to client confidentiality and I would not hesitate to report it the Police (the client is hardly going to be bright enough to report me to the RCVS) as my social conscience far outweighs any selfish feelings of 'its not my problem', we need the owners off the streets not the dogs.

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:04:43 GMT

We'll agree to disagree then.

I realise there are exceptions to every rule - but GSDs, on the whole, give a powerful bite but will then let go. Pitbulls don't let go. Hence why they kill children, whereas there are undoubtedly more bites from GSDs every year (and probably even more from terriers) but they don't go on to kill their victim.

Pitbulls were bred as a weapon. 99 out of a hundred may be absolutely fine - but it is the other one I wouldn't want to meet.

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:57:35 GMT

With respect Gillain I don't agree. I have dealt with a number of pitbulls in the past (in South Africa) and I have found them to be no better and no worse than any other breed. Indeed those that are aggressive (and most of them weren't aggressive) tend to be more like Rottweilers rather than GSD's ie they are directly and obviously dominant-aggressive and you get lots of warning and can act appropriately. Legalities of the matter aside I would rather see pitbulls than GSDs!

Edited to expand a little - I don't think pitbulls are appropriate to have, unsupervised, around children. I don't think they are appropriate pets for ALL people, and in a certain sense those people who tend to want to own pitbulls should be automatically excluded from owning them!

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:52:23 GMT

[quote user="Lucie Allcutt"]Maybe I am being very thick - but is there *really* a way to tell the difference? [/quote]

Easy. Try to restrain both breeds. With one you will get a wriggly dog and possibly a bite. With the other you will be lucky to come away with all your limbs.

The true pit-bull is inherently aggressive and are not appropriate pets for anyone.

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:27:23 GMT

[quote user="Lucie Allcutt"]

I am totally puzzled by this - we have a few areas in the United States that employ breed specific legislation (my hometown county of Miami-Dade, for one, unfortunately) and a Staffordshire Terrier *is* classed as a Pitbull-type dog. In fact, most people don't even distinguish between the terms American Staffordshire Terrier and Pitbull. How are the English Staffordshires any different? To my eyes, they look the same as the pits in the US...and I was always under the impression that being a "Pitbull-type" was purely based on the physical appearance of the dog.

Maybe I am being very thick - but is there *really* a way to tell the difference?

[/quote]

Lucie in this country a Staffordshire terrier is legally not a pitbull or pitbull type but you do get a number of crosses who do look quite a lot like a pitbull - most Staffordshire terriers we see are not at all like pitbulls though.

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Simon Neuhoff — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:25:43 GMT

Like most vets I have seen a number of dogs that I have been a bit suspicious of but as others have said, it takes a brave man to put their head on a block and call it a pitbull or even "pitbull type" given how variable the breed is. This situation is different though - the client TOLD us its a pitbull.

I would very much like to just ignore that, take the coward's way out but to my mind if you knowingly turn a blind eye when a crime is being committed you are guilty of aiding and abetting that crime. So I spoke to the VDS and the upshot was as follows:

We ARE obliged to inform the owner that he is in breach of the law (under the 1997 amendment of the DDA it is an offense even to own a pitbull, even if it is neutered/muzzled/id chipped - according the the information the owner gave the dog is none of these!) and liable to prosecution.

We are not obliged to take him on as a new client, though we would of course be required to administer emergency treatment as we would to any other animal.

As it turned out when I tried to call him on the mobile number he gave us last night it is no longer his phone! He has not shown up today either. So for now I am going to wait and see if and when he does turn up again.

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Shona McLachlan — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 21:56:21 GMT

There is no real way of determining a Pit Bull - they just use some very vague breed standards that could just about describe most cross breeds that come through the door. The DDA is one of the most flawed pieces of legislation out there that we have to contend with on a day to day basis.

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Lucie Allcutt — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 21:46:15 GMT

Maybe I am being very thick - but is there *really* a way to tell the difference?

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:35:27 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]It IS our job to be good citizens[/quote]

It's everybody's job I would hope, not just ours. But one man' s good citizen is another man's busybody.

Before we get all worked up, let me emphasise I'm referring to the original poster's question - I'm with Michael who has put it in a nutshell.

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Kate Richardson — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:32:27 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]Am I obliged to report him if the dog is not neutered/muzzled etc?[/quote]

We are not the police or trading standards. It is not our job to enforce the DDA.

Just get on with the vetting as appropriate.

[/quote]

No but owning a dog listed on the DDA list is a criminal offence and as such shouldn't one be obliged to report it?

I was in this situation once, client happened to mention he had recently acquired a Japanese Tosa puppy- as hadn't seen pup couldn't defnitively confirm was true, but rang Defra and RCVS for advice and the shortened version is they practically told me to ignore it. So not saying don't report it, but as to whether anythng will be done- your guess is as good as mine.

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:29:53 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]How would you feel if you turned a blind eye and it maimed/killed someone?[/quote]

Completely absolved of all blame. I didn't buy it, I didn't breed it, I didn't fail to control it. If someone steals my car and uses it to ram raid a shop and run over a few old ladies I don't feel guilty because it was my car.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]which includes reporting an illegal animal to the poilce[/quote]

You are breaking confidentiality and no-one actually knows what a pit bull is or isn't and I couldn't stand up in a court of law attesting to a dog being a pitbull or not.

100% not my problem

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:25:59 GMT

I couldn't disagree more Michael. It IS our job to be good citizens - which includes reporting an illegal animal to the poilce. Pitbulls should have died out years ago, so IF it is a pitbull, it is illegal.

How would you feel if you turned a blind eye and it maimed/killed someone?

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:23:12 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]Am I obliged to report him if the dog is not neutered/muzzled etc?[/quote]

We are not the police or trading standards. It is not our job to enforce the DDA.

Just get on with the vetting as appropriate.

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Simon Neuhoff — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:11:48 GMT

Thanks for the reply Martin. I have had a few dogs that looked suspicious but the owners always call them Staffordshire crosses or "American Staffordshires" - this is the first one I've had who was stupid/arrogant/ignorant enough to call it a pitbull!

I haven't seen the dog or spoken to the owner, it was one of those conversations you hear in the background whilst consulting.

Re: Dangerous Dogs -quick advice please

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 18:31:15 GMT

They need to be tattooed, chipped, neutered, registered and muzzled at all time in public and they theoretically shouldn't exist as none could have been bred or imported and all those pre-existing the DDA should be dead.

I had this quite recently with a puppy. I told the client that they had better change the breed of the dog on the registration form or I would have no option but to report it to the police as they were not complying with the DDA. I didn't look like a pit bull type anyway more of a leggy staffy they wanted to impress their mates with but were too thick to know about the law. Needless to say they didn't come back! Seriously I believe there is an obligation to report this if you think it really is of the pit bull type.