Docking advice

Re: Docking advice

Colin Cameron — Tue, 24 Aug 2010 10:07:59 GMT

A client was recently asked if they wanted the pup docked working length or pet length! Pet length?

Re: Docking advice

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 08 Jul 2010 12:30:21 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Why couldn't Royal College have had the courage to stick to their guns ? Having once made docking unethical-even though it was then legal for all breeds, and all purposes, why didn't they enforce this rule-instead of backtracking, and now allowing it whenever it's legal?[/quote]

This may sound a bit nit-picking, but no human agency can make something unethical, they can only declare it unethical.

And RCVS council did not declare or deem it unethical for any breed or any purpose. Very sensibly, they left it open for genuine prophylactic purposes.

Now that the matter is dealt with by a law (whatever you or I think of that law) it is not appropriate for RCVS to make different laws of its own.

Re: Docking advice

Bob Russell — Thu, 08 Jul 2010 12:25:53 GMT

They are bl**dy expensive Boxers!!!

Owners will get tetchy if you do not know about them!!!!! I think they sell for about twice that of a 'normal' Boxer.

Re: Docking advice

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 08 Jul 2010 12:19:05 GMT

[quote user="Colin Cameron"]one sees as one of the alloweable excuses to permit docking of a litter is that the breeder is known to have bred working dogs in the past, no matter how long ago. [/quote]

Not the case in Wales.

Re: Docking advice

Rob Davis — Thu, 08 Jul 2010 11:30:23 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Just be aware that there are Boxers with naturally docked tails - An owner came in with one and I very nearly got myself into an embarrassing conversation as i did not believe him!!!!

Their tails are 'twisty' in appearance rather than the true docked appearance.

[/quote]

Saw one of these yesterday, thought it was a poorly docked tail, was corrected by the owner!

Re: Docking advice

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 08 Jul 2010 11:16:14 GMT

Why couldn't Royal College have had the courage to stick to their guns ? Having once made docking unethical-even though it was then legal for all breeds, and all purposes, why didn't they enforce this rule-instead of backtracking, and now allowing it whenever it's legal?

Wynne

Re: Docking advice

Catherine Williams — Thu, 08 Jul 2010 10:42:26 GMT

Ok, that's a new one on me - will check it out before I put my foot in it.

Re: Docking advice

Bob Russell — Thu, 08 Jul 2010 10:35:05 GMT

Just be aware that there are Boxers with naturally docked tails - An owner came in with one and I very nearly got myself into an embarrassing conversation as i did not believe him!!!!

Their tails are 'twisty' in appearance rather than the true docked appearance.

Use wiki to find natural bobtail if interested!

Re: Docking advice

Catherine Williams — Thu, 08 Jul 2010 10:22:06 GMT

So does anyone do anything if they see a pup docked illegally.

I've had docked JRT pup - but untraceable as sold through a welsh horse market.

I did puppy party last night and had a boxer pup with no tail - no way that is legal - didn't corner the owner about it in front of all the other owners so don't know the story yet.

Does everyone pursue these, comment to the owner or just let it slide?

Re: Docking advice

Colin Cameron — Thu, 08 Jul 2010 09:42:11 GMT

I agree especially when one sees as one of the alloweable excuses to permit docking of a litter is that the breeder is known to have bred working dogs in the past, no matter how long ago. This gives really tight control over docking, doesn't it ? Like Canute and the sea!!!!

Re: Docking advice

Bob Russell — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 16:56:02 GMT

This type of half-hearted, ill considered legislation is designed to allow every abuse under the sun as long as vets are willing to do 'their masters bidding'!

Re: Docking advice

Colin Cameron — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 16:18:43 GMT

We had a client in a little while ago who was asked by the breeder if they wanted the puppy docked "working length" or "pet length" !!! How does this square with the legislation?

Re: Docking advice

Bob Russell — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 14:10:42 GMT

This silly bit of paper sums up the whole rubbishy (is there such a word?) legislation. I have had a few in as one of the local vets has suddenly decided he is OK with docking so docking people will obviously flood in to see him!!

I suspect this is more money driven rather than a change of heart but who is to say?

The 'certificates' I have seen are tatty photo copied (on an angle) and not fit for anything. I have signed one at microchipping (we use the biothermo chips) - this dog is never going to work and it has only had about 1/8th of its tail docked, at the breeders request apparently!

A surgical procedure with absolutely no purpose with this litter. Nobody can make me believe that removing the last 1/8th of any dogs tail will be of therapeutic value so this should have stopped any vet performing the procedure. IMHO not particularly ethical!

Re: Docking advice

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 14:00:22 GMT

[quote user="Catherine Williams"]

but it's more complicated as the 3rd statement from the breeder that the dog will be a working dog has not been signed and the vet who docked + certified the first part has signed to say they have seen the evidence and that the 3rd statement has been completed and signed...which it hasn't.... so the certificate may not be legal anyway.

Can of worms!

[/quote]

Yes but that's not really your problem, although you would have to inform the owner of the position. If you are really really bothered you could inform the owner in writing and keep a copy for yourself.

Re: Docking advice

Catherine Williams — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 14:00:05 GMT

I'm in England but I think from what you're saying the rules are similar.

It's very difficult to be confident that you're dealing with the same dog when the certificate you're signing has no identifying info on it, not even a note of breed, sex, colour or similar.

If the owner is happy to certify that it's the same dog and I'm allowed to sign in those circumstances then I'd consider signing it but with the problems with the validity of the rest of it I'm now wary of signing it in case that is condoning/supporting the prior incorrect certification.

I do feel sorry for the new owner who I don't think particularly cared whether pup was docked or not and potentially now has a headache to resolve

Re: Docking advice

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:52:49 GMT

I only know the law in Wales, so if you are in England (are you?) and the details are different, please excuse me.

The paper you are supposed to sign when you chip the dog requires you to certify that you are satisfied that the dog you are chipping is the dog referred to in the paper filled in when the docking was done. Are you satisfied? If not, don't sign. You might be able to feel satisfied after calling the original vet....... I don't know, you'd have to decide for yourself whether you'd been given sufficient evidence.

[quote user="Catherine Williams"]The owner/breeder statement section to be signed before docking was filled in but not signed.[/quote]

That is a big worry of course.

[quote user="Catherine Williams"]Can she go back to the vet who docked are insist they sign although it'll be a nuisance for her as the pup came from approx 100miles away[/quote]

She could do. That vet would have to do the chipping as well, of course.

[quote user="Catherine Williams"]Also any good reason why this pup was not chipped + certified at 1st vaccination when according to the vaccination card this pup was vaccinated by the vet who docked it? [/quote]

Forgotten? Breeder trying to save cost of chipping? Maybe the vaccination was actually done by the breeder?

It's obvious the system was designed on the assumption that the veterinary surgeon, or at least the practice, who did the docking would also do the microchipping. If people would stick to the system everything would be fine.But then whatever system for anything that's set up, there will be breeders who want to do something else. The result is trouble and difficulty for the unfortunate new owner.

Re: Docking advice

Edward Jones — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:52:13 GMT

[quote user="Catherine Williams"]The owner/breeder statement section to be signed before docking was filled in but not signed.[/quote]

Sorry, I missed this bit - section 2 is only dependant on section 1 having been filled out, so *if* you could reassure yourself of the dog's identity (perhaps by speaking to the docking vet), I think you could go ahead with the chipping.

However, section 4 requires section 3 to have been filled out, so the dog would still not be legally docked - so probably best not to get involved! The owner needs to take it up with the seller and sort out section 3.

Re: Docking advice

Catherine Williams — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:28:39 GMT

Just called professional conduct at RCVS for advice - sounds like I can possibly sign it if the owner is happy to sign the declaration that it's the same dog and I'm happy to believe her, although that is apparently a personal judgement - he's going to just double check that.

Can of worms!

Waiting for more info from professional conduct

Re: Docking advice

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:20:08 GMT

DON'T SIGN

You can only certify what you know of your own knowledge. The first veterinary surgeon probably didn't chip because he/she felt the pup was too young-but it should then have stayed with the breeder until old enough !!!!!!!!!!!!

You didn't cause the problem, so don't put your MRCVS at risk by getting involved in trying to sort it out

Wynne

Re: Docking advice

Edward Jones — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:18:00 GMT

Not really, as far as I can see. It was probably forgotten, or perhaps the seller was trying to penny-pinch. Silly to rely on a new owner to get the microchip done though, at the moment the seller is open to an easy prosecution if the chipping isn't done by 6 months of age.

[quote user="Catherine Williams"]Am I right to be concerned about signing this?[/quote]

Probably. At the moment you've only got the word of the owner that this pup is what they say it is, and the owner could have printed out the certificate themselves after-all

Perhaps speaking to the vet who did the docking would help? If they can confirm that a litter of pups fitting the description was docked on that date, then I would have thought you'd have shown due diligence.