Rodentologists

Re: Rodentologists

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 06 Jun 2010 19:30:51 GMT

Trading Standards have responsibility for all sorts of funny things....... sheep scab for instance.

Nonetheless this is a disappointing response from Belgravia House. We all know that RCVS have no jurisdiction over non-veterinary-surgeons; that's not what we are asking. The RCVS machine could easily report this to Trading Standards themselves, and they could easily write a sharpish letter to dear Vedra, politely pointing out the law. Why do they not?

Re: Rodentologists

Bob Russell — Sat, 05 Jun 2010 12:00:00 GMT

Reply from the Royal College

Dear Mr Russell,

Re. www.scarletguineas.co.uk

Thank you for your email of 3 June 2010.

As those running this site are not veterinary surgeons, they do not come under the jurisdiction of the RCVS.

The College has received several concerns about the services offered on this lady’s website, and we understand that the information has been brought to the attention of Trading Standards, who are the competent authority to deal with such matters. You may wish to contact Trading Standards directly to discuss any investigation that they may conduct.

I have copied the College’s Senior Case Manager, Mr Michael Hepper, in on this email as he is the appropriate point of contact at the College should Trading Standards wish to discuss the matter further with us. Mr Hepper’s contact details are: 020 7202 0755 or m.hepper@rcvs.org.uk.

If you do decide to contact Trading Standards I would be obliged if you could confirm the name and contact details of the person you speak to.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

Yours sincerely,

This is not a bad reply but I cannot see how enforcing the Veterinary Surgeons Act can be a matter for trading standards. I will forward this to DEFRA to see what action we get there.

No wonder there are so many so called 'para-professionals' working outside any regulations.

Re: Rodentologists

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 05 Jun 2010 11:47:48 GMT

I'd worry about doing dental procedures concious as I would have thought that the pressure on the incisor roots from using the gag concious must be causing some trauma to their roots???

Re: Rodentologists

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 05 Jun 2010 00:41:14 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]Depends on the bunny! I see a couple of bunnies that are amenable to having their lower medial spurs filed with the diamond rasp, they let me do it,. it takes seconds, and gives excellent results with not one tenth of the hassle of a GA procedure.[/quote]

Assuming of course that you know that a)" lower medial spurs" are a problem in that rabbit, and that b) "lower medial spurs" are the only problem in that rabbit.

Re: Rodentologists

Stephen Courtney — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:37:39 GMT

[quote user="Adi Nell"]

Hmm. Interesting. Do you always give a ga to do dentistry on rabbits? (And yes, I know they're not rodents!)

I've seen some very experienced "rabbit clinicians" simply wrap the bunny in a towel, use the windy-open gag and cheek dilators to get a good view and then deal with the spurs on the molars without GA.

Comments?

Cheers,

Adi

[/quote]

Depends on the bunny! I see a couple of bunnies that are amenable to having their lower medial spurs filed with the diamond rasp, they let me do it,. it takes seconds, and gives excellent results with not one tenth of the hassle of a GA procedure.

Then again, there are many bunnies I see that I wouldn't dream of even trying...spring-loaded adrenalin filled Killer Rabbits, probably from Antioch....

Re: Rodentologists

Bob Russell — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 13:52:47 GMT

I have formulated an email to send to the RCVS - I do not think this type of situation should be tolerated by the profession. Our 'lords and masters' have a responsibility to protect the profession as well as punish us if we stray from the straight and narrow. I would suggest others approach them as well. DEFRA etc should take more notice if the Royal College approach them.

Dear Sirs

Ref: http://www.scarletguineas.co.uk/whatisarodentologist.htm

My opinion is that the people behind this website are offering services that not only breach the Veterinary Surgeons Act but are probably acting in breach of the Veterinary Medicines Act and the Animal Welfare Act.

I understand that this has been brought to your attention already and would appreciate an update on the action taken so far by the RCVS.

I am sure that suitable pressure on DEFRA and possibly the VMD by you will lead to suitable steps being taken to stop these 'rodentologists'.

I would appreciate an update!

Many thanks

Re: Rodentologists

Bob Russell — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 13:35:02 GMT

What precisely was the response to this website from the RCVS? They ARE responsible for ensuring that the VSA is properly conformed to by vets and should be able to refer breaches to the relevent authorities which would seem to be DEFRA/VMD/Police. This website is clearly indicating that they are offering illegal veterinary services.

Trading standards are unlikely to intervene unless they are misrepresenting themselves. If they do what they say on the website it is not likely to breach trading standards legislation.

If the RCVS is not taking action we need to collectively complain to them until they do.

Re: Rodentologists

alan hough — Wed, 12 May 2010 16:58:16 GMT

What really gets me Evelyn is that to most horse owners they take "NFU approved" to mean he has been approved by some one -which to me is misleading advertisement of services.

There is also the annoying fact that again most individuals arent aware that even if he has insurance ( which I would question ) that insurance is invalidated as soon as he performs catergory 2 or 3 procedures, as you can not insure an illegal act (would be a bit bit like a burgular wanting personal injury insurance ) Most owners are also unaware that their insurance cover is also invalidated for allowing an unqualified invidual perform illegal procedures on their animal.

I do agree too the RCVS should do more to help vets and the general public tackle this issue. Like I suggested in my other post a jointly run national awareness campaign might go along way as I have personally found the best way to ensure individuals like this do less damage is through increased owner education.

Alan.

Re: Rodentologists

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 12 May 2010 16:37:09 GMT

PS. That one about "NFU Approved", when in fact the bloke just has some insurance with NFU, pops up quite regularly. It is of course a falsehood.

Re: Rodentologists

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 12 May 2010 16:33:19 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

They are just down the road from us - but I hadn't heard of her. I will be contacting the RCVS and if necessary the police. Thanks Evelyn.

[/quote]

RCVS can do nothing. They only have jurisdiction over Vets. Possibly trading standards for animal welfare issues? They could support a prosecution. Maybe the police. How about [dare I say this] the RSPCA? Hope they have their premiss registered with the VMD and have a SQP..........

Be interested if you get anywhere.

[/quote]

It's not true to say RCVS can do nothing, they only have jurisdiction over vets; although one often hears that said, even sometimes by people at Belgravia House. RCVS could initiate a prosecution under the Trade Descriptions Act, or the Veterinary Surgeons Act, or possibly the Animal Welfare Act. They don't, because they do not have the funds or the resources to do it, and this is quite understandable. What they can do and should do and sometimes do do, is to; write to the offender with polite stern warnings; advise and assist a complaining veterinary surgeon (for instance, whether to complain to police or Trading Standards, how to word a complaint, which department or officer to deal with and so on); formally lay information as to the VSA, the definition of veterinary surgery, and so on and so on; and just generally help and encourage.

One of the great threats to our profession is these self-appointed persons who fancy being amateur vets and carving off odd bits of veterinary surgery to be their own profession. If an EDT fancies doing veterinary surgery, he or she can enter veterinary school and qualify as a veterinary surgeon - it can be done and it has been done - and the same applies to Vedra and her chums.

Re: Rodentologists

alan hough — Wed, 12 May 2010 15:01:02 GMT

This is the same issue as I highlighted in the Cowboy horse "Dentists" post. I tried RCVS, DEFRA, BEVA who all passed the buck to Trading and Standards. After I tried to explain to T & S why I left what he was doing was breaching the VSA and putting animal welfare at risk and misleading the public, they had a chat with the guy involved but other than that did nothing. His website didnt change except for putting "if loose" after wolf tooth extraction -he continues to advertise that he will do Category 2 and 3 dental procedures even though he is neither a member of BAEDT or WWAEDT.

I contacted NFU as he had claimed on his website he was approved and insured by NFU??? ( I was surprised to see an equine insurance company approving an EDT) They neither confirmed nor denied he had a policy with them, but confirmed they could not and would not "approve" anyone including and EDT. I asked if they were insuring him whilst he carried out illegal procedures as he advertised he would and they said they would look into it-he now doesn't have NFU mentioned on his website but still claims to be fully insured.

This is his current list of services offered;

Incisor bite & molar balance assessed before & after treatment including “jaw slide”

Full palpation (feel) examination from the outside (over skin)

Symmetry of the head, jaw and facial muscle development

Approximate ageing

Droppings examined for evidence of chewing efficiency

Enamel points & edges rasped smooth

Float molar teeth

Rasp down hooks & ramps

Balance Mouth

Adjust the angle of a shear mouth

Removal of tarter

Prevention/treatment of periodontal disease

Smooth & buff canines (if long/sharp)

Rasp down accentuated transverse ridging (ATR)

Correct wavy/step mouth

Owner education

Extractions

Slab facture removal

Make custom bit seats (if deemed necessary)

Removal of deciduous molar caps

Removal of wolf teeth (if loose)

Removal of incisor fragments

Float incisor teeth (if necessary)

Removal of deciduous incisors (milk teeth)

Cut & realign incisors (if unavoidable & deemed necessary)

I wish you all the best trying to have some action taken against these people but I have found most authorities dont want to get involved and/or dont know enough about the regulations/laws/VSA to deal with these people properly.

Sorry if slightly off topic Arlo but feel they are all relating to the same issue

Alan

Re: Rodentologists

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 12 May 2010 12:45:16 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

They are just down the road from us - but I hadn't heard of her. I will be contacting the RCVS and if necessary the police. Thanks Evelyn.

[/quote]

Be interested if you get anywhere.

Re: Rodentologists

Rob Reid — Wed, 12 May 2010 12:33:49 GMT

[quote user="Adi Nell"]

Hmm. Interesting. Do you always give a ga to do dentistry on rabbits? (And yes, I know they're not rodents!)

Comments?

Cheers,

Adi

[/quote]

I know of people who do the same for Guinea Pigs, probably the same technique as these 'rodentologists' (or whatever they are called) are using.

I personally won't touch them without a GA - even in unwell patients. I don't see how you can do a proper job for starters and I would also argue that the stress of restraining them alone is probably worse than under a controlled GA, not to mention the pain aspect.

Re: Rodentologists

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 12 May 2010 11:20:23 GMT

[quote user="Adi Nell"]

Hmm. Interesting. Do you always give a ga to do dentistry on rabbits? (And yes, I know they're not rodents!)

Comments?

Cheers,

Adi

[/quote]

Appalled.

Re: Rodentologists

Adi Nell — Wed, 12 May 2010 10:44:16 GMT

Hmm. Interesting. Do you always give a ga to do dentistry on rabbits? (And yes, I know they're not rodents!)

Comments?

Cheers,

Adi

Re: Rodentologists

Rob Davis — Wed, 12 May 2010 08:44:24 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]

It's not just Marylyn who is offering "Corrective dentistry – without anaesthesia". It seems that Vedra is doing it too http://www.britishassociationofrodentologists.co.uk/CCT.html

[/quote]

I've had run-ins with Vedra in the past, she is known to the RCVS, and has been practicing "rodentology" for years, but as far as I know, no action has ever been taken against her...

Re: Rodentologists

Niall Taylor — Wed, 12 May 2010 07:27:23 GMT

"What can a Rodentologist do?

•A full-body health check
•Worming
•Skin care – including fungal infections
•Parasite prevention and treatment
•First aid
•Intensive care nursing (circumstances permitting)
•Give injections
•Recognise and treat most medical conditions
•Some minor surgery
•Corrective dentistry – without anaesthesia
•X-rays – without anaesthesia (facilities permitting)"

Sounds like a pretty clear breach of the VSA to me.

Niall

Re: Rodentologists

Louise6732 — Tue, 11 May 2010 23:45:00 GMT

''The British Association of Rodentologists is the only recognised association dedicated to the promotion of healthcare for rodents. Formed in 1994, the BAR has offered specialist training to many people interested in the health and welfare of rodents, especially Guinea Pigs.''

With whom is the association recognised, I wonder? Perhaps the Daily Mail should be informed of this website

Re: Rodentologists

Laurence Webb — Tue, 11 May 2010 22:36:40 GMT

It's not just Marylyn who is offering "Corrective dentistry – without anaesthesia". It seems that Vedra is doing it too http://www.britishassociationofrodentologists.co.uk/CCT.html

Re: Rodentologists

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 11 May 2010 20:44:43 GMT

They are just down the road from us - but I hadn't heard of her. I will be contacting the RCVS and if necessary the police. Thanks Evelyn.

Re: Rodentologists

Rob Loxley — Fri, 07 May 2010 02:27:17 GMT

Luckily the British Association of Rodentologists website tells its members looking to purchase a stethoscope that it is "used to listen to lungs, heart beat, upper respiratory issues"