HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

Re: HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

Edward Jones — Fri, 06 Aug 2010 13:46:27 GMT

Once set-up the yahoo group can work 100% by email. But I agree, yahoo is rubbish in general.

Re: HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

Bob Russell — Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:01:00 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/mrcvs/

It's a yahoo group.

I don't really mind the details being posted (JGW's post just grated a bit this morning) - I have to accept there'll be competition and try to make sure that VetSurgeon.org is better than anything else out there!

[/quote]

Wow what a faff to get on this particular site - gave up in the end

Re: HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

Anthony Todd — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 19:06:49 GMT

Don't worry Arlo that site is a bloody nightmare to use; my email address is bouncing and it's the site email address. I've tried to sort it but gave up.

Why don't these techy types use the KISS principle.

Keep up the fine work and site.

Re: HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

Bob Russell — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 16:02:37 GMT

I wonder how much it cost HMRC to get this money!

The last time we had our VAT inspected it was to make sure we were accounting for rebates correctly. Better get ready for another inspection!

Have you checked your practice insurance? - we have cover for extra costs associated with such inspections and I think our policy is fairly standard (through BVA Lloyd & White). You may get some or all of the professional fees back.

Sorry to rub salt into wounds if it is not covered!!

Re: HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

J G Wray — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 11:36:21 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]The HMRC people are on commission, so we should expect a certain level of forthrightness from them. Their gang is also considerably larger than ours. We will not be indulging in righteous indignation about the unfairness of it all, when we have done what we thought was the correct thing. Instead we will be calculating what this is costing, on three fronts. Firstly, our liability toward HMRC. Secondly, what our advisors are costing. Thirdly, the wear and tear and time cost on ourselves.[/quote]

We have just received what can be best termed as an "all clear" from HMRC

They concluded that with the exception of the accomodation and associated benefits issues our systems were "robust and operating well (statement made without prejudice and based on records examined)" - hmmmm

They also drew our attention to two services
1.Payroll Cleansing http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/leaflets/ca89.pdf
2.E-filing - compulsory online posting of PAYE end of year returns from 2011

This has cost us
1. Our time (~40hours) over more than a year - £???, but we have good systems and records
2. £3,310 - to HMRC which included some interest payments but not penalties
3. £1,000 in professional fees - assistance from accountants

So there's your benchmark

Ever'elpfulWray

Re: HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 07 May 2010 08:17:53 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Arlo - you'd keep more traffic if the link opened in a new tab![/quote]

Sorry - forgot. Normally it's your links I spend my life setting to open in a new window, though

Re: HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

J G Wray — Fri, 07 May 2010 07:30:16 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]I should hope HMRC are investigating whether individuals or businesses are avoiding tax and that they won't change tax rules to fit with a business's contracts of employment. Does anyone wonder why tax accountants exist or why Tax Investigation Insurance exists?[/quote]

Aha! righteous indignation; always a difficult one to answer, because everything looks so black and white.

So, here goes - Mr Loxley, you are absolutely right. But,.....

what has happened to us so far relates to PAYE. Most practices, like us, do their own PAYE - Sage Payroll. So, accountants don't necessarily get involved until there is a PAYE investigation and that's what happened with us. Up to that point we had been following what was agreed with previous PAYE investigations and our understanding of custom and practice in the industry.

That interpretation has changed, hence our problem. I'm not sure how we were supposed to know about this change, but ignorance is no defence and all that.

Having brought our accountants in for advice, they estimated our liability at around £600, but it will actually be several thousand, with HMRC reserving the right to think about fines if we do not pay something on account. There will be a discussion at a future date with our accountants about what value they added when they became involved.

The HMRC people are on commission, so we should expect a certain level of forthrightness from them. Their gang is also considerably larger than ours. We will not be indulging in righteous indignation about the unfairness of it all, when we have done what we thought was the correct thing. Instead we will be calculating what this is costing, on three fronts. Firstly, our liability toward HMRC. Secondly, what our advisors are costing. Thirdly, the wear and tear and time cost on ourselves.

The PAYE investigation is part of a newish initiative where the HMRC hunt in groups, PAYE, tax and VAT together. That is the bit we, as a profession, haven't experienced before. We thought that previous PAYE advice was set in stone, but then we all know what thought did.

As an amusing side note, our accountant told his team that we are his "cleanest clients". We haven't had the tax bloke's assessment yet, but that is something that our accountants are involved in. Given our accountants accuracy wrt our PAYE liability, we're not holding our breath.

We also have recipes.

Regs

JGW

Re: HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

Rob Loxley — Fri, 07 May 2010 02:56:52 GMT

I should hope HMRC are investigating whether individuals or businesses are avoiding tax and that they won't change tax rules to fit with a business's contracts of employment. Does anyone wonder why tax accountants exist or why Tax Investigation Insurance exists?

I understand Veterinary Surgeries are major targets for PAYE investigations given how many provide vehicles/accommodation/bills as part of their employee package. In fact we had one a couple of years ago, resulted in lots of discussion about how much food one member of staff was buying for their dog from the practice (it wasn't enough per the feeding guide on the bag, so they must be pilfering more off the shelves and not declaring it)!

Re: HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 07 May 2010 00:32:39 GMT

Arlo - you'd keep more traffic if the link opened in a new tab!

Re: HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 06 May 2010 21:57:27 GMT

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/mrcvs/

It's a yahoo group.

Re: HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

Ian Mostyn — Thu, 06 May 2010 21:44:43 GMT

I don't want to upset Arlo by advertising a different forum. Perhaps we could get some details on here?

Ian

Re: HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

Vikki Halliday LLB — Thu, 06 May 2010 21:30:51 GMT

[quote user="Ian Mostyn"]Someone has told me privately but I haven't yet looked at it[/quote]

Really? Is it invitation only?

Re: HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

Ian Mostyn — Thu, 06 May 2010 21:22:52 GMT

Not trying to drive away business but I genuinely had no idea where this list was. Someone has told me privately but I haven't yet looked at it

Ian

Re: HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 06 May 2010 16:35:00 GMT

[quote user="Ian Mostyn"]What is the MRCVS list? Maybe I am just being a bit stupid but can you put a link please.[/quote]

Generally considered quite bad form to post links to other discussion lists in a forum like this - effectively taking members away from a community that I've worked very, very, very hard to build! [:'(]

Re: HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

Ian Mostyn — Thu, 06 May 2010 16:23:02 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"] then take yourselves off to the MRCVS list where you can learn about how my practice will be paying thousands to HMRC following a PAYE investigation.[/quote]

What is the MRCVS list? Maybe I am just being a bit stupid but can you put a link please.

Ian

Re: HMRC enjoy some Schadenfreude

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 06 May 2010 15:42:12 GMT

Alternatively, why not just tell us about it here?!