current wages

Re: current wages

Wren — Fri, 07 May 2010 09:45:54 GMT

I'm new to this debate and, fee structuring etc. aside, the thing that annoys me most is not my relatively low wages, it's the client perception of what I earn. They see you pull into the yard in a 'posh' car and assume that you, or the practice, is rolling in it. For the record I drive 36,000+ work miles a year, need a 4WD, change vehicles every 3 years or so when the mileage vs. engine/parts replacing becomes unsustainable and for me my car is as vital a bit of kit as an ultrasound scanner or an anaesthetic machine. It is not a status symbol or evidence that the practice has too much money. When I get in it at 3am and -10C I need to know that it will start and get me to my destination!

I think that the widely reported £100k GP salary does us a disservice as that gives clients a ballpark figure which they assume we earn as well. As a 10 year qualified vet I can assure you I earn nowhere near the SPVS median £50900 let alone the GP's £100000.

It usually stops farmers short in this sort of conversation when I mention that my mother, a university librarian, earns more than me and works 9-5, 5 days a week with statutory coffe and lunch breaks. For two hoots, and if I didn't (mostly!) love this job, I'd join her in the library. She doesn't get many clients ringing up to complain when she's slogged her guts out for them......

Re: current wages

Kate Richardson — Fri, 07 May 2010 00:19:43 GMT

I don't think a 'union' would necessarily be the right organisation to determine pricing policies, I think a 'union' should be developed to be a spokesperson for the profession that will actually stand up for us, and with the aim of re-educating the public about the profession and to change many of the misconceptions that some people have, in particular that we are only in it make money, and to educate people about the realistic costs and responsibilities of owning a pet.

Regarding pricing policies, the previous entries regarding cut price clinics surely provide some evidence that they don't have decent working conditions nor proper facilities and the workloads are far from acceptable. I can't comment about the salaries. (I'm not suggesting that university standards should be the minimum standards by the way! ) But as someone earlier said, cut price clinics devalue what we do- we are in a hugely responsible position, and in this sad day and age, can be subject to huge pressures, including threats of being sued and struck off! (Not speaking from personal experience thankfully). I think we owe it to ourselves to value ourselves more.

And to compare us to doctors- a diabetic friend recently had some hypoglycaemic episodes at night unbeknownst to them which was causing some confused episodes- one doctor said he was just tired and prescribed some sleeping tablets (imagine what could have happened if he taken them given that his blood glucose dropped to 1.7 whilst he was asleep.....) whilst another doctor told the paramedics attending my friend that she 'couldn't devote any more time to this case....' Shocking...

Re: current wages

Julian Earl — Thu, 06 May 2010 22:19:23 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

Which is why we need much more transparency with regards to fee structures and minimum standards set so that the public can see what they are getting for that price and can make an informed decision about what sort of veterinary practice they are taking their animals too. And they need to be aware that they should then be loyal to that practice and not just use them for the routine stuff but then go to the 'better' practice up the road when they have an emergency in the middle of the night that requires more facilities than their vaccinating/cheap dental clinic can provide as their overheads must surely be significantly lower to be able to survive at these prices. Many practices probably struggle to make any significant profit on such routine surgeries which are likely priced significantly higher than this! But these practices will likely have better facilities, better nursing staff, more vets who are up to date with latest possibly life saving procedures and therapies, a wider range of medications sitting there on the shelf ready to be used that one time a year that it may be necessary, etc etc

Bring on the union...

[/quote]

How do you imagine that a Union would directly affect the pricing policy of a practice? As long as there are decent working conditions, a reasonable salary for everyone, and proper facilities, how does it matter whether it is achieved via £300 speys/£400 pyos or £150 speys/£600 pyos (as examples)? As long as the workload is acceptable in both cases, it makes no difference surely?

Re: current wages

Rob Smith — Thu, 06 May 2010 19:28:04 GMT

[quote user="Rob Reid"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]But it isn't about doing ourselves justice - or deciding what we think we are worth - where on earth would the money come from for every vet to earn that? I'd love to pay my assistants 100K - but they wouldn't have a practice to work in for very long......[/quote]

Absolutely correct.

So the question is can GPs justify this wage (some of which of course will come out of the taxpayers pockets) ?!

[/quote]

Some of which? Where does the rest come from?

And the answer is no - they certainly don't deserve it!!

Re: current wages

Clive Ansell — Thu, 06 May 2010 15:19:21 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]One low cost clinic I worked allocated 15 minutes per cat dental. [/quote]

.......why so long????!!!!

[/quote]

who knows, they seem to p***t about and take forever to do anything, I'm sure they could have it wrapped up in 5 minutes if they got their fingers out!

Re: current wages

Rob Reid — Thu, 06 May 2010 14:11:04 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"] I once rang up a total 66 consultations in 7 hours, just over 6 minutes each - they are not really consultations, as there is insufficient time for a complete examination and discussion of findings and options - it is more like battle field medicine, "yes, your dog has a bad ear, have some Canaural, goodbye" - next please. [/quote]

I remember Seeing Practice at a similar establishment. They ran an afternoon surgery from 2 - 6.30 with 5 minutes per appointment. You got a 10 minute break at 4.15.

There was no room for any type of conversation with the client, brief exam - couple of jabs (usually amox LA/dex) and off you go. In saying that, it was a fairly rough area and I would have been dubious as to whether any of the clientele would been able to hold a conversation for more than a couple of minutes anyway...

Re: current wages

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 06 May 2010 13:04:28 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]One low cost clinic I worked allocated 15 minutes per cat dental. [/quote]

.......why so long????!!!!

Re: current wages

Clive Ansell — Thu, 06 May 2010 11:11:01 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

What the **** is a Vaccination Clinic doing dentistry for anyway?

Oh, sorry, that rather invites the answer, "Oooh, about thirty-eight quid plus VAT", doesn't it

[/quote]

Its dentistry Evelyn, but not as we know it. It probably is not dentistry as most of us would use the definition.

It is more like, rag out (sorry, I mean carefully and surgically extract) any loose or suspect teeth and a nurse quickly descaling the remaining ones. One low cost clinic I worked allocated 15 minutes per cat dental.

Re: current wages

Clive Ansell — Thu, 06 May 2010 10:56:57 GMT

[quote user="Rob Reid"]

I assume that there is therefore a high turnover of staff in these places. I could see myself becoming very frustrated at the sub-optimal standard of care and stressed out at the high pressure/high throughput working conditions.

[/quote]

Yes, and I certainly did. Not my cup of tea I have to say.

I have had a small number of locum stints in low cost clinics and limited service providers, I hate them. Horrendous work loads, incredibly stressful, and as you say extremely frustrating because it is almost impossible to work to an acceptable standard. I once rang up a total 66 consultations in 7 hours, just over 6 minutes each - they are not really consultations, as there is insufficient time for a complete examination and discussion of findings and options - it is more like battle field medicine, "yes, your dog has a bad ear, have some Canaural, goodbye" - next please.

My ex boss who sold his practice and locumed for a while, and who is one of the most relaxed, nice natured and laid back people I know, had to take time off for stressed related illness after just a few months in one of those back street sweatshop hell holes.

Re: current wages

Rob Reid — Thu, 06 May 2010 09:27:30 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

The only way they can possibly make a living at those prices is;

high volume, they just push loads through presumably with the result that standards and level of care are reduced.
production line style surgery. whilst operating the next will be ga'd and prepared. The vet then just moves from one op straight to the next (sometimes rescrubing in between, but not always)
In the low cost clinics I have worked (not worked in this one) nurses do most of the dental work whilst vets are doing speys etc (in the same room at the same time in one clinic)
i/m dom/ket anaesthesia in cats, quicker and given by nurses.
very few or no packaged suture materials
keep staffing levels to a minimum, and work those they do have in to the ground, hence the high turnover of staff
make money in other areas, i.e. promoting pre op bloods and IVFT in older patients, other surgeries at standard prices.

[/quote]

Re: current wages

Clive Ansell — Thu, 06 May 2010 08:38:44 GMT

[quote user="Rob Reid"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I agree entirely, but when there are practices out there pushing through cat dentals for £45 , it is going to be an uphill battle. I feel it totally devalues the work we do.[/quote]

Have you looked at their neutering prices as well?

cat castrate £20
cat spay £27

dog castrate £50
dog castrate >35kgs £65
bitch spay £75
bitch spay >35kgs £90

includes metacam (peri and post-op), i/d and buster collar

Not sure how you can make a living on that?!

[/quote]

The only way they can possibly make a living at those prices is;

high volume, they just push loads through presumably with the result that standards and level of care are reduced.
production line style surgery. whilst operating the next will be ga'd and prepared. The vet then just moves from one op straight to the next (sometimes rescrubing in between, but not always)
In the low cost clinics I have worked (not worked in this one) nurses do most of the dental work whilst vets are doing speys etc (in the same room at the same time in one clinic)
i/m dom/ket anaesthesia in cats, quicker and given by nurses.
very few or no packaged suture materials
keep staffing levels to a minimum, and work those they do have in to the ground, hence the high turnover of staff
make money in other areas, i.e. promoting pre op bloods and IVFT in older patients, other surgeries at standard prices.

Re: current wages

Vikki Halliday LLB — Thu, 06 May 2010 05:01:46 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]Which is why we need much more transparency with regards to fee structures [/quote]

We already do have this to a degree, however this alone does not prevent undercharging, or zero rating for some items in an "inclusive" procedure such as neutering.

[quote user="Kate Richardson"] minimum standards set so that the public can see what they are getting for that price [/quote]

That's the PSS, however it makes not a jot of difference to clients as the RCVS don't make a big enough song and dance about it IMHO.

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]And they need to be aware that they should then be loyal to that practice and not just use them for the routine stuff [/quote]

However I disagree here. Whilst it is nice to have loyal clients, I have always hated the way that veterinary practices expect their clients to come to them for everything, and not to be allowed to "shop around". A good practice will attract and keep clients not solely on pricing structure but on the personalities within the practice. It is up to the practice to prove their worth to the client, not just "educate" them that they should be loyal!

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]Bring on the union...[/quote]

But agree with you on this one.

Re: current wages

Kate Richardson — Wed, 05 May 2010 18:45:42 GMT

Bring on the union...

Re: current wages

Niall Taylor — Wed, 05 May 2010 18:38:30 GMT

[quote user="Rob Reid"]Not sure how you can make a living on that?![/quote]

You cut corners somewhere else then hike your fees once the local opposition has gone bust trying to match them.

As my first boss used to say, "if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys" (at which point I would smack my lips together and scratch my armpits - but only once he'd left the room!).

Niall

Re: current wages

Rob Reid — Wed, 05 May 2010 16:50:58 GMT

Have you looked at their netuering prices as well?

cat castrate £20
cat spay £27

dog castrate £50
dog castrate >35kgs £65
bitch spay £75
bitch spay >35kgs £90

includes metacam (peri and post-op), i/d and buster collar

Not sure how you can make a living on that?!

Re: current wages

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 05 May 2010 16:34:01 GMT

What the **** is a Vaccination Clinic doing dentistry for anyway?

Oh, sorry, that rather invites the answer, "Oooh, about thirty-eight quid plus VAT", doesn't it

Re: current wages

Clive Ansell — Wed, 05 May 2010 15:35:23 GMT

I agree entirely, but when there are practices out there pushing through cat dentals for £45 , it is going to be an uphill battle. I feel it totally devalues the work we do.

" Dental Cat (Full scale & polish inc. meds) – £45
Includes pre medication, full general anaesthetic, full scale & polish and dental assessment. Plus 5 days of aftercare antibiotics (if needed) and FREE post dental check up following the procedure "

Re: current wages

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 05 May 2010 14:40:16 GMT

Hear hear Kate and Vikki

Wynne

Re: current wages

Vikki Halliday LLB — Wed, 05 May 2010 13:27:26 GMT

You're not alone there Kate!

Re: current wages

Kate Richardson — Wed, 05 May 2010 10:53:45 GMT

Hi, I only discovered this website recently and have been very pleased to read some of these discussions and discover that there are other vets out there who feel the same way I do!

I just wanted to say that I believe far far far more needs to be done to educate and inform the general public about the profession- in terms of what we earn (including comparisons to other professions), the hours we work, the extra study we do to keep ourselves up to date with advances in the profession, and how our fees are structured- the public generally have no idea what costs are involved as most get their health care via the NHS so they have no comprehension of costs involved, they just see it as expensive. If they could perhaps understand better maybe they would be less inclined to complain about a fantastic service that most of profession provide for them. I totally agree we should value ourselves more and thus reflect this in our fees for our services rather than making up the difference on medication charges. But until the public understands this, then they will continue to have this misconception that vets earn a bl***y fortune! Maybe a Veterinary Union or similar would be a good idea to take on this role of educating the public. The RCVS is there to protect the public, I know they look after us too, but I think we need a more vocal organisation to protect us and ultimately help us do our jobs even better!

I could go on but I won't! other than to say I love my job as a vet with a passion and I didn't choose this career because it would make me very rich but there are times when I do wonder why we put up with of the bulls**t that we do, especially from the media and maybe its time we started standing up for ourselves a bit more...

Kate

Re: current wages

Vikki Halliday LLB — Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:52:59 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"] if clients are only willing to pay up to £x for their pet or even £xxx, we have to accept the consequences for good or ill.[/quote]

But are we as a profession guilty of perpetuating this problem by continually offering cut price services and undercutting the competition?

If you look at the way for example the haulage indusry has gone in the last 10 years, the continual undercutting of prices to win contracts, and a significant raising of fuel prices, has led to a situation where the small business owner can no-longer operate as they are simply not competitive.

Yes in some businesses it is acceptable to carry out certain functions as a "loss leader", to win business, however is it professional to do so? Is it not that in a few years time, it will be impossible to set up in practice with a one or two vet facility, as these businesses cannot compete purely on economy of scale.

Yes we are in a profession directly related to supply and demand, however working in a very Vet "saturated" area, I can still see at the moment a large hospital practice, charging at least 25-50% more than average general practices, winning over and keeping new clients. However, if we all keep undercutting each other, at some point this will impact on all practices, and the winners will be those with a large buying power like large groups and corporate practices.

At this point, small one and two man practices will end up going to the wall as they simply cannot compete, and the situation self perpetuates as practitioners panic and reduce prices further.

I also think that if we were to charge more realistically for routine procedures and consultations, there would be fewer surprises when it comes to emergency and non-routine investigations and surgery. I think we are actively devaluing ourselves, and whilst I agree that the aim should be to bring e.g. neutering within the financial reach of most clients, and therefore encourage more responsible pet ownership, what I think the client sees from this is " well if it only costs £80 to spay a dog, why does a pyometra operation cost £400-500 pounds? (And before you all reply telling me the medical and surgical difference, you have to agree that it is a similar surgical procedure, albeit involving greater risk and necessitating more medical treatment)

Practices do need to stick together more, and whilst I'm not suggesting price fixing, (goodness no! That would be totally illegal!), it does seem to me that a general agreement to charge far more realistically and at the very least not reduce prices below cost, would help improve the image and outcome for everyone within the veterinary profession.

Re: current wages

Julian Earl — Tue, 20 Apr 2010 21:37:20 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

[quote user="Julian Earl"]Do you really consider that we have the same responsibility as an airline pilot? If I make a mistake then an animal might suffer, or an owner might contract some zoonosis - but I won't crash a plane on a city.[/quote]

Does that mean the job of a pilot is technically more demanding, more stressful, working longer hours, making greater personal sacrifices, therefore deserves to be better paid?

[/quote]

In order: probably, probably, probably not, possibly, probably.

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

Sorry but I chose this career knowing what it would entail in terms of all of the above, not that I would 10yrs + qualified, be paid the same as a manager of a supermarket!

Pilots know when they take on the job the responsibility for peoples lives that they will hold in their hands, that does not excuse a massively inflated salary as a direct consequence!

[/quote]

I'm not sure that your argument follows. "Pilots know when they take the job" does not mean that they are over-paid; the two matters are independent of each other. I think they have a very good case for receiving the £140,000 quoted above, simply because it is such a highly skilled job with massive responsibility not to get anything wrong.

I have mixed feelings about this whole salaries issue. Yes, I would happily double all my fees, double the salaries of all my staff, and keep the change but the fact of the matter is that we are subject to market forces and no matter how much more we feel we are worth, if clients are only willing to pay up to £x for their pet or even £xxx, we have to accept the consequences for good or ill. It really is a case of supply and demand no matter how many years we train or how adept we are at surgery.

Re: current wages

Vikki Halliday LLB — Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:36:04 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Hmm - breaking my own rules a bit here, and straying off topic.

[/quote]

Yellow Card!

Re: current wages

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:33:45 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I'd like to be able to argue: "if you don't pay, someone else's animal will suffer", which is a stronger argument, but I guess hard to substantiate. [/quote]

i'd love to too, but don't think RCVS would approve of it..........

[/quote]

Hmm - breaking my own rules a bit here, and straying off topic.

Think this would be better continued in the 'Pay up or PTS' thread ...

Re: current wages

Vikki Halliday LLB — Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:27:59 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I'd like to be able to argue: "if you don't pay, someone else's animal will suffer", which is a stronger argument, but I guess hard to substantiate. [/quote]

i'd love to too, but don't think RCVS would approve of it..........