Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

salome2001 — Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:46:05 GMT

my understanding is this:

from: Neonatal Pain and its effect on Adult Behaviour and Socialisation: a brief overview
Kindly submitted by (Animal Welfare Science Ethics and Law Association - AWSELVA).

5. Conclusions
Our contemporary view of pain control mechanisms in neonatal mammals, based on scientific studies, is that descending inhibitory pathways are immature whilst the neonate has an otherwise fully functioning nociceptive system. Neonates show hormonal, physiological and behavioural stress responses, in response to pain, that are similar to those produced by adults but at lower thresholds. Neonates are therefore likely to be hypersensitive to pain, rather than hyposensitive as previously thought.

reference here:http://www.anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/page_14.htm

I accept that this has inherent bias, but challenge anyone to scientifically refute its conclusions

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

Edward Jones — Thu, 20 May 2010 15:52:43 GMT

One point to add to the notion of 'Prey species will hide their pain more than predator species, so pain is more likely to underestimated in the former than the latter', is that dog puppies are not yet themselves predators.

It may well be that drawing unnecessary attention to themselves at a young/defenceless age would be a significant evolutionary disadvantage, so perhaps the puppy that settles within a minute or two of tail docking is still feeling significant pain.

However, my (anecdotal) experience of litters with both docked and undocked pups is that there is no difference in growth rates. I wonder how useful this is at measuring how stressful/painful docking is?

Re: calf castration: I believe the most pain comes on traction of the testis/cord, in contrast to the skin incision which (IME) produces minimal reaction in most animals. Is it possible to effectively anaesthetise the cord? IME, a scrotal sub-cutaneous/intra-testis injection seems as painful as (if not more than) a sharp blade scrotal skin incision.

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

Charlotte Marshall — Tue, 11 May 2010 18:08:36 GMT

Talking of neonates feeling pain, I saw a report in the newspapers within the last week that a new paper had been published showing that premature babies show more pain response than healthy babies at the same stage of development. this is thought to be due to all the painful procedures they undergo while they are in intensive care (up to 14 a day). This has the potential to cause a change in the way tests are done because until now the belief has been that they do not feel pain in the same way as older babies as they do not show it . Sounds like they were using the same arguements that are being used by vets to suggest puppies do not feel pain to the same degree at a few days old.

Interesting hey?

(personally I never do dew claws either)

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

sandra taylor — Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:18:10 GMT

[quote user="svn"]

[quote user="Sandra Taylor"]

[quote user="svn"]

To my memory, yes the lambs settled quickly..... but they are prey animals - instinct tells them to hide pain or weakness....

Dogs are hunters - they wouldn't have that same insinct....

[/quote][quote user="svn"]

To my memory, yes the lambs settled quickly..... but they are prey animals - instinct tells them to hide pain or weakness....

Dogs are hunters - they wouldn't have that same insinct....

[/quote]

Fair enough.. but at 3-5 days old?? would they have that instinct? afterall their brain is not as highly developed at that age, and certainly not in the respect of lambs, aho are up and running, soon after they are born

[/quote]

That is my point - as prey animals, lambs would hide their pain or injury. They need to be up and running minutes after birth for a reason - they are prey! Therefore they will conceal any signs of 'weakness' including crying!

Carnivores would also hide their injury, but not to the same extent....

[/quote]

But would they if they are not prey animals... I know I am asking bascially the impossible as there have been no studies to my knowledge.... apologies If i am being a pain! I just want to get this essay correct to the best of not only my knowledge........ ,but of those in the profession too.

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

svn — Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:02:19 GMT

[quote user="Sandra Taylor"]

[quote user="svn"]

To my memory, yes the lambs settled quickly..... but they are prey animals - instinct tells them to hide pain or weakness....

Dogs are hunters - they wouldn't have that same insinct....

[/quote][quote user="svn"]

To my memory, yes the lambs settled quickly..... but they are prey animals - instinct tells them to hide pain or weakness....

Dogs are hunters - they wouldn't have that same insinct....

[/quote]

Carnivores would also hide their injury, but not to the same extent....

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

sandra taylor — Sat, 03 Apr 2010 22:45:18 GMT

[quote user="svn"]

To my memory, yes the lambs settled quickly..... but they are prey animals - instinct tells them to hide pain or weakness....

Dogs are hunters - they wouldn't have that same insinct....

[/quote][quote user="svn"]

To my memory, yes the lambs settled quickly..... but they are prey animals - instinct tells them to hide pain or weakness....

Dogs are hunters - they wouldn't have that same insinct....

[/quote]

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

svn — Sat, 03 Apr 2010 22:25:03 GMT

To my memory, yes the lambs settled quickly..... but they are prey animals - instinct tells them to hide pain or weakness....

Dogs are hunters - they wouldn't have that same insinct....

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

sandra taylor — Sat, 03 Apr 2010 22:14:52 GMT

[quote user="svn"]

The first time I saw that I was 15, and I vividly remember the farmer getting annoyed that the lamb had retracted its testicles!

Now if there was no fear, or pain involved, surely said lamb would just have allowed it's crown jewels to hang free for ringing!

Barbaric! Worse than docking dew claws - at least those 'lucky sods' don't have to go through their bits withering, dying, and dropping off!

[/quote]

Hmmm I going to be a bit controversial here... I have seen docking done where they just cut the tail off... and the pups screamed.., I have seen the banding technique... they dont react half as much, and they settle much quicker than a straight cut pup... now I have not witnessed a withering of the "crown jewels" of a lamb.. but would imagine it would be much the same withereing as in a banding(please correct me If I am wrong) and personally it is more humane IMO!

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

svn — Sat, 03 Apr 2010 22:00:56 GMT

The first time I saw that I was 15, and I vividly remember the farmer getting annoyed that the lamb had retracted its testicles!

Now if there was no fear, or pain involved, surely said lamb would just have allowed it's crown jewels to hang free for ringing!

Barbaric! Worse than docking dew claws - at least those 'lucky sods' don't have to go through their bits withering, dying, and dropping off!

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

Hanna Bennett — Sat, 03 Apr 2010 21:44:23 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

There is a huge difference between a dog that is born with it's eyes closed and its brain unmyelinated and a human baby, or even a baby lamb. A lamb can get up, run, see etc. A puppy is completely helpless. There are terms for the two kinds at birth but I forget them.

[/quote]

so do you favour ringing lambs then?

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

sandra taylor — Sat, 03 Apr 2010 11:21:27 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

Vet Comp Orthop Traumatol. 2008;21(3):231-7.

A survey of gundog lameness and injuries in Great Britain in the shooting seasons 2005/2006 and 2006/2007.

Houlton JE.

Davies Veterinary Specialists, Higham Gobion, Hertfordshire, UK. john@houlton.wyenet.co.uk

The aim of this paper was to record the types of injuries and causes of lameness exhibited by dogs involved in game shooting. The study investigated gundogs that worked in the seasons 2005/2006 and 2006/2007. Information was acquired by owner questionnaires. The dogs were classified as working in the beating line, as peg dogs or as picking up dogs. A further group comprised Setters and Pointers that worked the grouse moors. A secondary objective was to assess the incidence of injuries that were treated by owners without seeking the assistance of their veterinarian, and to identify those that may have been underestimated. Depending on whether a dog was injured or went lame, and, if so, the nature of the injury, was correlated with the number of days worked, where it worked, its breed and the type of work it did. A mildly positive association between the Spaniel breed group and injuries was seen in 2005/2006 but not in 2006/2007. However, the relationship between the type of work and injuries was very significant for both seasons with dogs working in the beating line being at greatest risk and Setters and Pointers having the least number of injuries. The dogs in the beating line were also at a significantly greater risk of injury in both years when the type of injury was investigated. Fifty-three percent of all injuries were deemed to be sufficiently minor, that veterinary attention was not sought. However, those dogs with proximal thoracic limb lameness may have been under-investigated. There was a highly significant association between tail injuries and undocked Springer and Cocker Spaniels.

PMID: 18536849 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[/quote]

Thankyou Malcolm

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 19:15:44 GMT

I'm not being drawn into a long winded slanging match here!

[quote user="Jane Dunnett"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]It is irrefutable fact that when a puppy is born its brain isn't fully formed hence they eyes closed and it is much less able to experience pain.[/quote]

What do you mean by "fully formed". Structurally? Neural pathways? Learned responses?

This rather wooly declaration could be appplied to the human brain too which continues to establish neural pathways and responses throughout life. When is any brain "fully formed"

Please provide evidence for the second part of your statement - "much less able to experience pain" (or is this just your opinion )

Cheers,

Jane

[/quote]

It is as I was taught as an undergraduate, which my experience has reinforced and even supported by the paper quoted by Sandra "suggest that the animals do experience pain, the pain appears to be short-lived (with all puppies quiescent by a maximum of 15 min)."

Almost everything we do to animals causes them some pain/discomfort. We can only extrapolate how much pain they are in. I am absolutely sure that if I cut the tail off an adult dog with no pain relief/anaesthetic it wouldn't be asleep in 15 minutes.

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 13:23:50 GMT

Vet Comp Orthop Traumatol. 2008;21(3):231-7.

A survey of gundog lameness and injuries in Great Britain in the shooting seasons 2005/2006 and 2006/2007.

Houlton JE.

Davies Veterinary Specialists, Higham Gobion, Hertfordshire, UK. john@houlton.wyenet.co.uk

PMID: 18536849 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

sandra taylor — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 12:47:21 GMT

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T48-3W313RW-M&_user=8641121&_coverDate=09%2F15%2F1996&_alid=1278832052&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_cdi=4968&_sort=r&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=170&_acct=C000010098&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=8641121&md5=67be38584dc745c46b552e1576d73640

Sorry that first one did not highlight.

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

sandra taylor — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 12:46:42 GMT

[quote user="Jane Dunnett"]Please provide evidence for the second part of your statement [/quote]

I have come across this paper in my research.http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T48-3W313RW-M&_user=8641121&_coverDate=09%2F15%2F1996&_alid=1278832052&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_cdi=4968&_sort=r&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=170&_acct=C000010098&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=8641121&md5=67be38584dc745c46b552e1576d73640

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

jd2008 — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:56:03 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]It is irrefutable fact that when a puppy is born its brain isn't fully formed hence they eyes closed and it is much less able to experience pain.[/quote]

What do you mean by "fully formed". Structurally? Neural pathways? Learned responses?

This rather wooly declaration could be appplied to the human brain too which continues to establish neural pathways and responses throughout life. When is any brain "fully formed"

Please provide evidence for the second part of your statement - "much less able to experience pain" (or is this just your opinion )

Cheers,

Jane

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

sandra taylor — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:51:33 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Sandra Taylor"]but I cant think of any use they would be to a dog. [/quote]

Watch a collie with a bone!

Seriously though, you should look out a paper published by John Houlton in VCOT a year or two back in which he reviewed a large series of injuries to working gun dogs - it is one of very very few bits of research which has adressed the issue in a scientific rather than an emotional way. Another aspect which puzzles me ( a former docker of puppy dog's tails) is why, as professions we get so het up about the surgical docking of puppies when we appear to condone the rubber ringing of lambs (tails or testicles). You don't need a PhD to see that rubber rings are a cruel and unusual torture.

[/quote]

Hi Malcolm, I have tried to find this article without success, do you happen to know the title of it? if I have the title then I should be able to get it through the librarian

Thankyou.

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

sandra taylor — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:44:37 GMT

Here is something that I came across in my research on this subject.

As you all know Scotland has a total ban, including working/gundogs , so although this is a small survey it is very interesting to see the results were there to be a total ban UK wide.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/outdoors/galleries/taildockingsurvey/06/#title

Also can I say that I have 3 dogs, all of whom are traditionally docked...or were, as I live in Scotland. My 2 Rotties do not have tails or dew claws, but my JRT has both, she has never injured her tail, and she is a "hunter" always in and out of bushes etc, she has however had a few minor dew claw injuries. I am glad she has a tail,as it is not the first time I have had to yank her out of a rabbit hole, and her tail did come in handy for that purpose

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

Utlendigur — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:01:49 GMT

I've had four dogs since I qualified - all acquired as adults as rescues/strays (typical softee vet ) - 2 collies, one undocked JRT and one docked JRT. They spend most walks running and crashing through hedges, forest and undergrowth. The only one to have suffered a tail injury was....the DOCKED one! She lacerated and bruised the tip of her stump probably by catching it on a branch. Had she had a full tail, it would have probably just been folded down as she dived under the obstacle. (and yes I agree it's a small sample size )

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

Vikki Halliday LLB — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:53:52 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Moran"] those of us who disprove of tail docking are clearly all urban vets with little or no experience of working dogs,[/quote]

Not entirely, I have three working gundogs, spent a lot of time shooting, and the most common injuries I see are ripped legs from dogs going through barbed wire fences. But we don't see a lot of tail injuries.

I admit in the innocence of youth, I was a former tail docker, but have changed my opinion over the years as the understanding of welfare and neonatal development has evolved.

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

Vikki Moran — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:28:32 GMT

can i just point out (since I am being often quoted here!) - that:

1. I am not suggesting that teeth clipping is perfectly acceptible in all situations

2. I certainly am well aware that teeth clipping can be done badly and painfully

3. I never clip rabbits teeth without using a burr!

just feeling a little over-quoted as a bad example, and that's not what I meant. I simply meant that theoretically it's possible to do both beak clipping and teeth trimming without causing any pain, but removing dew claws and docking tails (regardless Micheal of whether you think it is necessary or not) is a painful procedure to perform on a neonate without GA (even done according to law) - cutting any part of any living creature, especially a bony part, is painful and using neonatality as an excuse is quite honestly abhorrent to me. who says a neonate cannot feel pain? there's terrific amounts of evidence that in utero pain is a strong stimulus. much less able to express pain is more the issue I think. after all, one of the last stimuli to be lost in neurological conditions is deep pain - perhaps that suggests that pain is a very basic primitive sense that may well develop early? certainly my 2 hour old neonatal human was very aware and responded loudly to pain when he had his tongue cut, and blood samples taken.

I should perhaps steered well clear of discussing teeth and beaks sinc ei have never worked with pigs or chickens (nor do I eat them, unless i know exactly where they came from) so i'm not well placed to comment!

as to anecdotal evidence, and Michael's comment that implies that those of us who disprove of tail docking are clearly all urban vets with little or no experience of working dogs, I personally have worked my 8 years in cheshire, where i see many working dogs, some docked and some not docked, I also come from a rural background, and my dad has working dogs and is a very active member of working dog clubs. I still think tail docking is wrong as a preventative measure.

and my dog uses his front dew claws for lots of things too. i also remember being told several years ago in a similar discussion with a greyhound vet that those dew claws are considered very important for greyhounds, as they give them extra grip when cornering.

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:06:56 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]IMO[/quote]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]It is VITAL that we are talking about the same population of dogs[/quote]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]much less able to experience pain[/quote]

There is some relevant literature out there and if anything is "vital" it is that our debate is informed rather than just an exchange of anecdotal experience which is always and inevitably, rather limited.

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 01:22:42 GMT

You may have sussed I am not afraid of taking a controversial stand.

Today I docked two litters of working cocker spaniel puppies fully in accordance with the law (micro-chipped etc). I have seen quite a large number of tail injuries in working dogs (often Labs, an undocked breed) but have removed parts of a number of working spaniels tails damaged during work. Personally I am content that there is a real risk of injury to working dogs. I cannot see ANY reason for docking a show dog. I remove dew claws at the same time, if present and if the owner want me to.

It is VITAL that we are talking about the same population of dogs, and in the middle of a large town/city I imagine tail injuries to be quite rare. The vast majority of dogs I see are spaniels/terriers/Labs and collies.

It is irrefutable fact that when a puppy is born its brain isn't fully formed hence they eyes closed and it is much less able to experience pain. Anyone who hasn't docked a puppy would be amazed how many don't even react at 48 hours old, no noise. My pet is a docked Patterdale Terrier.

IMO our profession has wasted so much time debating this, and its really such a none issue.

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

Utlendigur — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 00:12:24 GMT

In 18years I've never docked a puppy's tail or removed dew claws in a puppy. I certainly don't think front dew claws are vestigial - watching my own two dogs bears that out - they are used for grasping toys, bonios, chews and for getting a better grip round their owner's neck as they launch themselves onto my lap from the arm of the sofa if I'm busy on the computer (the chair is on casters so I generally go spinning across the room) So, no I don't agree with removing front dew claws unless there is a good medical reason.

I have seen very few tail injuries needing amputation - those I have seen have usually been lurchers where the tail tip gets damaged due to trauma when wagging it. I would also say there is a big difference between cutting through the spinal column and a flap of skin (when comparing docking to removing vestigial dew claws)

We do see more problems with hind dew claws - some have more that one claw, or a tendency to curve round into the skin, or get traumatised because the lack of a proper bony attachment means they just flap around. In these cases we usually remove them UGA at neutering.

Ditto the comments on rodent teeth clipping - thank heaven for diamond burrs

Re: Tail docking.. dew claw removal... what is the difference ?

Rebecca MacMillan — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 21:02:29 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Vikki Moran"]teeth and beaks trimmed properly should not be a painful procedure[/quote]

Teeth clipping; smashing through teeth with "clippers" in the hope that the fracture lines will not be too disastrously out of place; smashing through the pulp in the vague hope (assuming you've thought about it at all) that it will somehow heal; come off it, of course it's painful and the pain is not brief.

[/quote]

Agreed. I cringe every time I see a rabbit booked in for 'routine' teeth clipping. The sound and feeling reverberating up through that bunnies head must be awful. There is little accuracy as to where that tooth shatters, plus the horrible sharp edges that can be left behind... *shudder*