What to call lay staff?

Re: What to call lay staff?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Sun, 24 May 2015 22:57:15 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]whoever came up with the term fur kids should be shot at dawn[/quote]

Why wait till dawn?

[/quote] It's too dark before dawn ;)

Re: What to call lay staff?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 24 May 2015 22:13:28 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]whoever came up with the term fur kids should be shot at dawn[/quote]

Why wait till dawn?

Re: What to call lay staff?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Sun, 24 May 2015 16:36:27 GMT

We called our unqualified staff " support staff" as in "Sarah , one of our support staff will help you" . It's a bit of a mouthful but we felt there needed to be clarity for the client and recognition of the effort of qualifying as a nurse so we tried not to call them nurses. Auxiliary just makes me think of mops and buckets for some reason. Invented names always sound weird and whoever came up with the term fur kids should be shot at dawn. I suppose this post will label me a novice which I associate with nuns , must get my wimple on

Re: What to call lay staff?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 23 May 2015 13:57:21 GMT

[quote user="minnie"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Giving the patient TLC is nursing, and RVNs don't have the monopoly on that.

[/quote]

exactly, and I just cannot see why there is so much fuss about titles? The job should be about more than a title. It isn't going to change the way people work (or shouldn't). It isn't going to mean anything to most clients, and it isn't going to make a difference to the animal being nursed. To me the title issue has become more important than getting the job done for some people

[/quote]

I could not have put it better.

Re: What to call lay staff?

Minnie — Sat, 23 May 2015 13:19:33 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

For my money, Veterinary Nursing Assistant (VNA) is the answer, abbreviated to 'Nursing Assistant' in everyday use.

[/quote]

But then is that fair to those that have undertaken the Diploma for Veterinary Nursing Assistants who use VNA to denote their earned qualification? Or, for that matter, somebody who has taken the Hill's Veterinary Nutritional Advocate Training - who also use VNA.

ANA - Animal Nursing Assistant - again that one is being used by people who have undertaken and completed the ANA course so would it be fair to them to use that ?

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Giving the patient TLC is nursing, and RVNs don't have the monopoly on that.

[/quote]

Re: What to call lay staff?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 22 May 2015 19:35:59 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

No, no, I mean't the biggest problem with your suggestion: "to continue to call all the others who do nursing veterinary nurses" is that it devalues the qualification.

In other words, continuing to call unqualifieds 'veterinary nurses' devalues the qualification, not protecting the title RVN, which has quite the reverse effect.

[/quote]

Ah. I see what you mean. I don't agree though.

Re: What to call lay staff?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 22 May 2015 18:36:37 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I'd say the biggest problem is that it devalues the qualification, which is probably of most importance to the people who've worked hard to get it[/quote]

No it doesn't. I don't follow. How does protecting the title RVN, or Registered Veterinary Nurse, devalue the qualification RVN?[/quote]

No, no, I mean't the biggest problem with your suggestion: "to continue to call all the others who do nursing veterinary nurses" is that it devalues the qualification.

In other words, continuing to call unqualifieds 'veterinary nurses' devalues the qualification, not protecting the title RVN, which has quite the reverse effect.

Re: What to call lay staff?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 22 May 2015 14:56:28 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]My suggestion is just to differentiate by saying: "Alice, our nursing assistant, will take things from here". Is that too much of a stretch?[/quote]

Frankly, yes. To the client they are all nurses anyway. What I say is "Alice will take things from here".

Anyway:

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I'd say the biggest problem is that it devalues the qualification, which is probably of most importance to the people who've worked hard to get it[/quote]

No it doesn't. I don't follow. How does protecting the title RVN, or Registered Veterinary Nurse, devalue the qualification RVN?

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] (I'm not convinced the public cares that much either way).[/quote]

Quite right. Though I think in time they would start to recognise the big badge and the special uniform.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Continue to call all the others who do nursing veterinary nurses, which is accurate, if you wish.[/quote]

Yes, but if Lord Trees has his way, also illegal. The Bill calls for the protection of Veterinary Nurse, not just RVN.

[/quote]

I know. I oppose this move unless, following the principles of natural justice and not affecting someone's currently legal livelihood, anyone who has been earning their living under the designation "veterinary nurse" for the last five years gets "grandfather rights" (strange term) to the title. Veterinary surgeons had to accept this back in 1881, why not nurses now?

Re: What to call lay staff?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 22 May 2015 12:41:34 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Continue to call all the others who do nursing veterinary nurses, which is accurate, if you wish.[/quote]

Yes, but if Lord Trees has his way, also illegal. The Bill calls for the protection of Veterinary Nurse, not just RVN.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Where's the problem?[/quote]

I'd say the biggest problem is that it devalues the qualification, which is probably of most importance to the people who've worked hard to get it (I'm not convinced the public cares that much either way).

But I'd also argue that as the VN profession moves forward, and especially if the title becomes protected, then it's misleading. I mean, who, in real life, is going to introduce the nurse to the client as: "Here you go, Mrs Perkins, our registered veterinary nurse will take things from here". Surely you just say 'Alice, our nurse, will take things from here'.

My suggestion is just to differentiate by saying: "Alice, our nursing assistant, will take things from here". Is that too much of a stretch?

Re: What to call lay staff?

Bob Russell — Fri, 22 May 2015 12:35:22 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]... but I can't think of a name![/quote]

For my money, Veterinary Nursing Assistant (VNA) is the answer, abbreviated to 'Nursing Assistant' in everyday use. That's the title we use on vetnurse.co.uk.

I think auxiliary is too much of a mouthful. Difficult enough to say sober.

I know some would rather the title didn't have the letters n r s u anywhere near it, but I don't see how that is possible, given that nursing-lite (and often not-so-lite) is exactly what they are doing. I mean, forget the ivs and everything. Giving the patient TLC is nursing, and RVNs don't have the monopoly on that.

[/quote]

I think the term VNA is avoided because of the fear that it might be confused with RVN. Similar issues with Nursing Assistant

Nothing wrong with VNA or NA in my opinion but I suspect the RCVS would not approve. Protect RVN and leave the rest to commonsense!

Re: What to call lay staff?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 22 May 2015 12:17:26 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"] So we can make decisions based on our knowledge of anatomy, physiology, etc. if the case is not routine.[/quote]

Yes. That's a veterinary surgeon's job.

Make RVN, or Registered Veterinary Nurse, a protected title. Continue to call all the others who do nursing veterinary nurses, which is accurate, if you wish. The public will still regard them as "the nurses", whatever. However in time the public will come to recognise the RVN as someone extra qualified (or as the mini-vet.....?) Where's the problem?

Re: What to call lay staff?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 22 May 2015 12:04:51 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]... but I can't think of a name![/quote]

For my money, Veterinary Nursing Assistant (VNA) is the answer, abbreviated to 'Nursing Assistant' in everyday use. That's the title we use on vetnurse.co.uk.

I think auxiliary is too much of a mouthful. Difficult enough to say sober.

Re: What to call lay staff?

Bob Russell — Fri, 22 May 2015 09:53:26 GMT

[quote user="sam aldridge"]The problem with that is- if they are unqualified and not registered as a student they are breaking the law by placing IV catheters/taking bloods/giving meds (unless orally or to their own pet).

[/quote]

But this is a tiny part of the working day and here the vet and RVN do these tasks. A little odd that a human phlebotomists do not require any qualifications and receive on the job training!

If the only advantage to being an RVN is being able to place a catheter/cannula and giving injections then I doubt the qualification would be worthwhile for anyone.

Proper training and experience are essential for all staff members and this is often more important than a piece of paper.

There is a risk that I am sounding anti-nurse and I genuinely am not! I have known some brilliant VN's and a few I would not trust my animals with. I have major misgivings about the VN training which seems to have gone overboard. The theory seems to be trying to make 'mini-vets' .

Check the syllabus for Veterinary Care Assistants and you will find it covers much of the old VN training without worrying about how to dispose of a urine sample their way or asking the colour of the corpus luteum in an Outer Mongolian Three Toed, one eyed Mongoose!

Our VCA would like to do her training as an RVN but to be quite honest we cannot face the hassle required (at the moment!). The college organising the course she did made sure we complied to all the relevant legislation, the course was quite tough and demanding. It has left her much more knowledgeable!

Re: What to call lay staff?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 22 May 2015 08:49:20 GMT

Exactly. Even giving a subcut injection is legally an act of veterinary surgery, and therefore it's as illegal for an unqualified person working in a veterinary surgery to perform as it was for RANAs to do so when I was a new grad.

Wynne

Re: What to call lay staff?

sam aldridge — Fri, 22 May 2015 08:30:54 GMT

The problem with that is- if they are unqualified and not registered as a student they are breaking the law by placing IV catheters/taking bloods/giving meds (unless orally or to their own pet).

Re: What to call lay staff?

Jo Dyer — Fri, 22 May 2015 08:10:32 GMT

I have always called any unqualified staff members who help with minor 'nursy' things like holding animals, running bloods etc, 'receptionist/auxiliary nurses'. 'Proper' nurses are either RVNs or trainee RVNs. I understand that in some practices the auxiliary nurses do a lot more, but I would worry about not knowing how much they actually know. At least with the VN training, a massive pain as it is for practices, you know that they have had an incredibly thorough education in just about everything they need them to know, and I think that calling the unqualified ones 'vet nurses' is insulting to the trained ones.

Once again we seem to have stepped ahead of the medical profession where unqualified HCA's do most of the basic nursing in hospital and are extremely difficult to differentiate from the qualified RGNs to the untrained eye. My trained eye can tell that the RGN is the one running around doing most of the work with a stressed look on his/her face.....

Re: What to call lay staff?

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 22 May 2015 06:35:03 GMT

... but I can't think of a name!

Re: What to call lay staff?

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 22 May 2015 06:32:58 GMT

[quote user="Noweia"]

Having worked in practices with QVNs and practices with lay staff, I have not found any difference in capability between the best of each, though the benefit of the qualification is that the minimum ability is better in the QVNs

(did I phrase that diplomatically enough? )

[/quote]

It is hard to try to differentiate without being rude to any of the groups!

I have worked in practices with both QVNs and lay staff. Most of the time, I have felt that experienced lay staff are very capable of the smooth running of the practice.

However, I am firm believer that what makes us good at this is not only what we do with our patients, but understanding why we do it. So we can make decisions based on our knowledge of anatomy, physiology, etc. if the case is not routine.

The two roles should be differentiated, their job descriptions should be different and our clients should be able to understand these differences.

Re: What to call lay staff?

Noweia — Fri, 22 May 2015 00:49:24 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I only wish a few more of the site 'lurkers' would come and add their thoughts too!

[/quote]

I would like a title I can call our unqualified nurses, most of whom are very capable of placing IVs, monitoring anaesthetics, giving meds, working out doses, as well as answering phones, doing kennels, mopping floors, cleaning theatre etc. I want to call them nurses because that's what they do, and they are good at it.

But I also appreciate that there are those who have put more structured study in and who have the qualification and the knowledge behind it, and as others have said, are better placed to make decisions. I don't want unregistered people to be able to call themselves Veterinary Surgeons, so why shouldn't RVN be a protected title too?

Maybe we could call the unregistered staff Lay Nurses, and the qualified ones get Veterinary Nurses?

Re: What to call lay staff?

Rhiannon Stundon RVN MBVNA BA(Hons) — Thu, 21 May 2015 16:30:37 GMT

Yes Bob, I completely agree that qualification does not equal experience, I would say both is needed. Your arguments are great, the only things that they do not address are standardisation and transferability.

The vet surgeon degree and the RVN qualification are all regulated to be standardised so that they mean the same thing wherever they are from. The courses you speak of are valuable of course, but what would be great is if we had a standardised qualification that "nursing assistants" can take. At the moment there is great variation between these courses and not one regulatory body. I think such a qualification at perhaps Level 2 for example being standardised for the profession would be brilliant.

As far as "nurses" trained on the job, apart from animal welfare and other legal considerations, is that as individuals their experience is not transferable. So you could have someone who makes a brilliant "nurse" in your practice, that you have trained, that has never studied an RVN qualification and that is good for you, but it's not good for your employee as you are only making them employable to you. The skills that your employee has are not necessarily transferable, they cannot apply for an RVN post in another practice should you retire and close your practice for example.

So in summary, how do you address:

1. lack of standardisation?

2. non transferable skills?

Re: What to call lay staff?

Bob Russell — Thu, 21 May 2015 15:37:07 GMT

A qualification is a piece of paper. It does not make someone safe nor competent in itself.

qualification

ˌkwɒlɪfɪˈkeɪʃ(ə)n/

noun

1.
a pass of an examination or an official completion of a course, especially one conferring status as a recognized practitioner of a profession or activity.

"I left school at 15 with no qualifications"
2.

a condition that must be fulfilled before a right can be acquired; an official requirement.

"the five-year residency qualification for presidential candidates"

Please note I am really not against RVN's in any way but am against the idea that nobody else can nurse. We have had RVN's that needed constant supervision to start with. In my first job I had constant supervision by an experienced nurse! A qualification does not automatically make someone safe or capable. It is a good start though! Non-qualified are not qualified by definition. It does not make them incapable!

It was not that long ago that the profession had Veterinary Surgeons and Veterinary Practitioners.

Re: What to call lay staff?

Bob Russell — Thu, 21 May 2015 15:30:54 GMT

A definition of nursing:

"a person trained to care for the sick or infirm, especially in a hospital"

There are plenty of good courses that do not lead to RVN status. The idea that all nursing should be done by RVN's and all those doing nursing duties is fanciful IMO.

There are some procedures that require registration to perform legally. Quite right too!

Most practice duties do not require the level of skills all RVN's are supposed to possess. These must be carried out by competent individuals which is why I am so enthusiastic about the better work based courses that my staff members have gone on to. They are aware of their legal limitations as this is integral to the courses.

I strongly disagree with the notion that all non RVN's are practice managers, receptionists or kennel staff. Many are highly capable, highly motivated providers of great nursing care to patients. Our clients are fully aware of the differences but hold all our staff in high esteem.

Re: What to call lay staff?

Rhiannon Stundon RVN MBVNA BA(Hons) — Thu, 21 May 2015 15:27:43 GMT

Are you suggesting however that unqualified people are qualified in all but title? Do you really mean that "unqualified" people are actually qualified it's just that they don't have the title?

Re: What to call lay staff?

Rhiannon Stundon RVN MBVNA BA(Hons) — Thu, 21 May 2015 15:21:53 GMT

I totally hear what you're saying and understand where you're coming from but we have to make the profession fully fledged, it's still a bit woolly at the moment because we are not drawing the line. I speak as a person who worked as a "nurse" in a practice for over a decade before undertaking the qualification. I've never looked back, it enhanced my job no end and gave me a career!

Re: What to call lay staff?

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 21 May 2015 15:07:18 GMT

[quote user="Rhiannon Stundon RVN MBVNA BA(Hons)"]All those who have years of experience working as a nurse in veterinary practice should undertake the RVN qualification if they want to continue working as though they are an RVN in practice.[/quote]

I can understand where you're coming from when you say this, but it's a bit of a bold statement: undertaking an approved qualification to become an RVN takes significant time and investment (either personally or by the practice), and although practice's may be happy to pay for this, are these 'unqualified' (in all but title) staff going to want to commit to the extra work this entails?