What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:19:32 GMT

Thank you, Claire.

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Claire Johnstone — Mon, 08 Mar 2010 19:57:47 GMT

[quote user="Hanna Bennett"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Incidentally, and I am preparing for more brickbats now why do you all always want to "report it" to the RSPCA - a private organisation with no special legal standing?

[/quote]

If there was someone else i guess i would consider an alternative, but the RSCPA are the only current option as far as i know. I know that the RSPCA as a whole has many faults, but am lucky enough to have a local Inspector who i respect and trust, which helps - most times she just issues cautions, but you'd be surprised how many people this makes pull their socks up!

[/quote]

There are several "someone else's"

The Animal Welfare Act 2006 empowered the local Authority (local council) to appoint an "inspector" (not the same as an RSPCA inspector) who would be given the full range of powers created by the Act. The AWA also empowered the police.

Parliament was given the chance to give powers to the RSPCA and for the second time refused to do so.

There is good reason for this. If the local authority does something wrong which is not dealt with properly by internal investigation after a complaint is made then the local government ombudsman will deal with them. Same thing for the police, a complaint will eventually make its way to the IPCC for investigation.

But for the RSPCA there is no such idependent regulator to protect the public. There are many complaints about the RSPCA and they are, to say the least, a very controversial and politicised organisation.

There is something more to consider when thinking about reporting clients to the RSPCA or any other body.

At least the client brought the animal in for some sort of treatment. They may be short of money, or irregular in their attendance, but if people lose faith in their veterinary practice respecting client confidentiality then there is a good chance that the animals will get no treatment at all.

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 08 Mar 2010 11:01:13 GMT

Evelyn. The trouble with reporting to the police is that most of the time they're not interested, and will actually tell you to contact the RSPCA.

Subject to bring up with Council candidates !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Mandy Knight — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 22:10:50 GMT

Thanks so much for all the advice... makes me feel a lot braver in my choices when dealing with clients/situations like these.

I too take the view that my first duty is to the animal to try and prevent suffering, but have sometimes felt powerless when some owners will not allow me to do just that.

A little sad though that it's not an uncommon thing to be faced with...

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Vikki Halliday LLB — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 21:44:01 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Incidentally, and I am preparing for more brickbats now why do you all always want to "report it" to the RSPCA - a private organisation with no special legal standing?

[/quote]

Actually Evelyn, I think you may find they are the only Non-Police Reporting Agency other than Trading Standards who can get involved in domestic pet welfare cases. Therefore thay are the only people who can if necessary make a case to the courts under existing animal welfare legislation.

Trading standards can only really get involved where the domestic pets are kept as part of a business.

As an ex-ministry vet, (for my sins, so don't abuse me too much! ) I used to have to pass all domestic animal welfare cases including horses to the RSPCA / SSPCA for that reason.

Vikki

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Adi Nell — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 20:05:48 GMT

I've always considered that my first responsiblity is to the animal.

If someone is wilfully leaving or causing an animal to suffer I will report it to ther RSPCA. I had to report a client once whose cats kept dying (from blunt trauma, mainly, including things "falling on them in the garage" or being found dead after the boyfriend and boyfriend's son had just left). Owner was most irate to have the RSPCA sent round, but was actually fine once I'd explained why I'd done so. I don't think she'd ever put two and two together....

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Hanna Bennett — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 17:17:13 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Criminal offence.............. police?[/quote]

who i guarantee would refer you to the RSPCA. not a perfect world, i know, but it's the way it works.

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 16:20:20 GMT

[quote user="Hanna Bennett"]If there was someone else i guess i would consider an alternative,[/quote]

Criminal offence.............. police?

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Hanna Bennett — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 15:58:01 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Incidentally, and I am preparing for more brickbats now why do you all always want to "report it" to the RSPCA - a private organisation with no special legal standing?

[/quote]

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 15:54:18 GMT

[quote user="Hanna Bennett"]

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

Are we actually permitted to do this without first obtaining permission to breach confidentiality by the RCVS?

[/quote]

From previous experience, getting the RCVS to give permission for anything is nigh on impossible. They will if and but and do anything they can to avoid giving a straight answer. I go with the theory that if I have warned the owners that if they do not bring the animal back for required treatment they will be reported to the RSPCA then I have covered any confidentiality issues.

[/quote]

With respect, it's not the job of RCVS to give permission, it's their job to hear the situation and give advice (and obtaining that advice is not actually compulsory, it's just extremely advisable). Ultimately the decision is yours whether the apparent offence is such as to justify breaching confidentiality, which is why it seems to you that they "if and but".

Incidentally, and I am preparing for more brickbats now why do you all always want to "report it" to the RSPCA - a private organisation with no special legal standing?

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 14:38:30 GMT

[quote user="phipps"]Emesis induction is always a cheap option that you can sometimes get lucky with certain gastric FBs in asymtomatic dogs.[/quote]

Or very unlucky if it lodges in the oesophagus. Personally, I don't induce emesis for FB retrieval. if I did, I'd make sure that the owner understands that a thoracotomy is far more traumatic than a gastrotomy!

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 14:36:34 GMT

[quote user="Emily Nightingale"] They wanted to see the xray and at this time it was not appropriate as I had other patients to deal with.[/quote]

I understand that we are all very busy at times - but this client presumably paid for the radiography? In which case your problem may hyave been avoided if you had taken a few minutes to show them the results of their large bill.....

IMHO all non-routine ops should be discharged by a vet (or an RVN if appropriate) and the procedures done and post op care explained - afterall, the client has paid for this, have they not??

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Hanna Bennett — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 14:18:34 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]

Are we actually permitted to do this without first obtaining permission to breach confidentiality by the RCVS?

[/quote]

I'm not saying i report every case that walks through the door, but for those that warrant it please do not be held back by fears of confidentiality issues. The animal's welfare is always the most important thing. Fractures tend to be the ones we see that end up causing problems. Had one last year that was seen by another vets, confirmed fractured radius/ulna on x-rays. Owner refused treatment as they wanted to take the dog to the PDSA so the other vets dressed it to support it in the meantime. Owner turned out not to be eligible for PDSA as outside the cachment area, so they left the dog with the dressing on for four weeks before presenting it to us. I was very blunt with the owners and informed them that in my opinion the dog was suffering and they had neglected it by failing to return to a vets for treatment. I informed them that i would be reporting them to the RSPCA, and did so. The dog was euthanased as they could not afford amputation or any other treatment. The RSPCA took the dog for post mortem and took legal action against the owner. The owner admitted the neglect and received a ban on keeping animals, which means i will hopefully never see such a mess again.

I would agree that the gastric FB is not an immediate welfare concern if the dog is asymptomatic, but certainly the dog needs close monitoring.

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Glen McIntosh — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 13:36:54 GMT

[quote user="Emily Nightingale"]Obviously at this time the dog wasnt in distress, and despite our advice about likely complications ( gastric irritation-> perforation->peritonitis-> RIP doggy) they ignored us, and as far as we know there is a lab in the Chelmsford area who has gastric FB.[/quote]

I'm not sure I would be particularly concerned at this stage. I reckon there are probably lots of dogs (esp labs) about Chelmsford (and the rest of the UK) with gastric FBs that are living perfectly healthy lives. The owner will come back if/when the dog becomes ill and they will have to bite the bullet and get the job done. Even if this particular FB just sits in the stomach and does not cause any problems I will bet that this dog does eat something that results in intestinal obstruction in the not too distant future which will definitely need surgery, so you can retrieve it then.

Emesis induction is always a cheap option that you can sometimes get lucky with certain gastric FBs in asymtomatic dogs. Do you think it is an option with this FB? I have had success with this several times with particular types of FB. Also, failing that, endoscopic retrieval may be useful and cheaper option for certain types of FBs. Both these options may be preferable in appropriate gastric FB cases even if the owner was willing to exlap.

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Nixthevet — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 12:59:48 GMT

Unfortunately, I too have been in this situation- on more than one occassion.

The way I idnerstand it Officially you must contact the RCVS professional conduct department to ask for their permission/ok to breach client confidentiality before passing details onto the RSPCA etc.

In practice - ooh at least- they are impossible to contact, or rarely give a striaght yes or no. As vets I think we are obliged to do our best to protect the welfare of animals under our care.

In the past I have told the owner straight that if they failed to attend their appointment they would be breaching the animal welfare act and that I was officially informing them that if they did fail to attend I would be contacting the RSPCA. This has worked on the vast majority of occassions. The one time it didn't I did indeed contact the RSPCA. My previous conversations with the RCVS have suggested that as long you tell the owners exactly what you will do if they don't turn up, then by not turning up they are pretty much giving you consent to release their details/breach confidentiality.

As a profession I think that we are almost forced to turn a blind eye to a certain amount of neglect- and that is very difficult. Certainly for those of us involved in providing care for charitable organisations I think we will all of come across the red tape that is involved locally in reporting/investigating/doing anything about benign or malicious neglect!

Of course there are specific guidelines for certain abuse - i.e owner inflicted, with regards to it's connection with child abuse- and the RCVS are much more open to this type of investigation/breach. In fact if you read the guidelines you are almost asked to contact the authorities about these ones.

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Clive Ansell — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 11:24:00 GMT

Swiss vote on whether to provide state lawyers for animals - maybe we need the same?

2nd link

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Emily Nightingale — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 09:33:58 GMT

Sorry to hear about your story.. I have sadly no advice and would warmly welcome some myself as am in similar position right now..

7 month old choc lab bitch ate a large fridge magnet 18 hours before presentation. On radiographing the abdomen the magnet is located in the stomach and "looks" too big to pass the pyloric junction. Bitch was well in herself and typically bouncy so as it was near the end of surgery (OOH costs not an option for these O's who despite my advice on puppy vaccs DIDNT have the dog insured after all) so we asked them to come back in 13 hours for admission and exlap. They wanted to see the xray and at this time it was not appropriate as I had other patients to deal with. They rang once they had got home and said they didnt believe the magnet was in the stomach, it was just a money making scheme and they would like to LEAVE the dog for now and "See how she gets on.."

Obviously at this time the dog wasnt in distress, and despite our advice about likely complications ( gastric irritation-> perforation->peritonitis-> RIP doggy) they ignored us, and as far as we know there is a lab in the Chelmsford area who has gastric FB.

What does one do? What CAN one do?? (apart from being wholly frustrated..)

Any advice welcome. Thanks! =)

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Utlendigur — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 09:31:31 GMT

Sounds exactly like a case I've got on the go at the moment. Owner waited at least 2 days before bringing the dog in with its 100% lameness (and dubious history of cause). Xrayed that day - nasty comminuted femoral #. Dog was sent home with pain relief to come in Monday for surgery (vet on duty didn't fancy tackling it and clients had no money so referral not an option). I finally managed to get it in for surgery on the Thursday - by which time in an extremely muscular dog with a week old # it was an absolute nightmare. Owners have so far paid £15!!!! and failed to turn up to about 50% of check ups, and turned up an hour late for the rest. I have verged on calling RSPCA several times but the owners seem to have a sixth sense and turn up just as I resolve to phone RCVS/RSPCA

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Vikki Halliday LLB — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 22:51:32 GMT

[quote user="Hanna Bennett"]Warn the owner if they do not attend check ups that are essential for the dog's welfare that you will report them to the RSPCA for failure to prevent suffering [/quote]

Hannah,

Are we actually permitted to do this without first obtaining permission to breach confidentiality by the RCVS?

From previous discussions I was inder the impression that the RCVS frowned upon this reporting without their consent, and would find it difficult to defend an complaint where client details were released.

I am also aware of the provision of the new animal welfare legislation, however it can prove difficult to prosecute where the informant has not followed professional guidelines as I suggest above.

However I would probably record everything, every conversation, every phone call, every attempt, successful or not, to contact the client. If they fail to treat it is they that are liable for prosecution, not you. Particularly if you involve the RCVS at the earliest opportunity.

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

Hanna Bennett — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 16:15:18 GMT

depends on your take - is there a vet-client bond here? i think not from your history, they strike me as the kind of clients you would happily have go elsewhere, so kid gloves are not always required. Warn the owner if they do not attend check ups that are essential for the dog's welfare that you will report them to the RSPCA for failure to prevent suffering - perfectly actionable under the new Welfare act. Helps if you have a good bond with your local RSPCA inspector - often will 'confidentially' chat with ours about a client only to find that she is aware of them for other reasons.Never had her break confidentiality when i've asked her not to. I would say leaving a dog for four days with a broken leg and no pain relief has to count as neglect anyway.

If they are in fact a valued client of the practice, and maybe a change in circumstances makes them less keen to spend money then be more polite about it and advise that you are only trying to do what is in the best interests of the dog, but that ultimately they are causing suffering - most genuine owners are keen to avoid this so this sorts things out.

Re: What are our options when faced with possible owner-induced suffering?

rhona kerr — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 13:57:53 GMT

Have been in a similar position - several phone calls, then sent a recorded delivery letter stating that we would have to pursue legal avenues if the cat was not presented for treatment as we were very concerned that it's fractured pelvis was causing it pain! The client was fine, presented the cat for exam as was doing so well they didn't think it needed follow-up! Call RCVS/VDS for advice on individual cases, both were helpful, but need to stick within legal framework. Need to be able to show attempts to treat, then RCVS can take steps to break confidentiality and inform RSPCA/SSPCA. AS long as word everything that only concerned for animal's welfare then clients have been OK that I have had to chase for revisit.