Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Cat Henstridge — Fri, 26 Feb 2010 20:12:59 GMT

This evening I euthanased a dog because of aggressive behaviour towards the owner. The problem was not nearly on the scale of the one here but they were adamant. They had sought behavioural advice, from a very well qualified source, and claimed to have followed it but to no avail. The dog had been doing well but this evening bit the owner (not badly) and thus he had to be destroyed 'immediately'

This is something I hate doing and I will be in a bad mood all night because of it. I usually try to persuade the owner to change their minds and offer all sorts of help but after having read this post I now don't know if that is a good idea or not. Does anybody know what our legal position is in this situation if we offer other options, the owner takes them, and then the dog injures someone badly?

Also, as an aside, this dog was bred in a shed and only went into a home when he joined this family. The behaviourist felt this had a big impact on his early development and coping mechanisms and was the start of the problems. A fairly good indication for the argument that all pups should be reared in a home, no matter how 'nice' the shed is.

Cat

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 18 Feb 2010 01:53:54 GMT

Martin Jones has said it all. Do it.

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Vikki Moran — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:17:16 GMT

I think that is absolutely appalling.

I worked in social services for a year before starting university, and certainy the way I understood it (though admittedly i was working in a secretarial role, but still) was that no matter who the source was, it wasn't policy (perhaps in that area only?) to name any source of information.

after all, aside from anything else, that breaks the relationship of trust with you and the client, and means that if there were any further incidents of concern, you are either not going to be party to them, or if you are, would be unwilling to report them.

I agree that there needs to be some record of what has happened.

I think it's disgraceful too that a SW has had the gall to decide whether a dog is safe or not, when they are totally unqualified to do so.

strongly worded letter in order here, i think.

incidentally, where do they draw the line as being a "professional" who ought to be named. say, for example, my husband wished to make a complaint, having visited a client of his, at home. he's an accountant. he could feasibly be in a position, visiting a home, where he became concerned about the welfare of a child. would he be named, as a professional? probably not, but I think there's some hypocrisy there.

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Jacquin Mitchell — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:52:42 GMT

The SW told me, as we are professionals, we are named if we report something. It's different if we are a member of the public apparently. :(

Now, if the lady I had spoken to had told me that I would not have left my name and phone number.

Jacq

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Amie Glaves — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:24:58 GMT

That's not on. Even if you didn't ask to be anonomised they should not have said who the source was.

You tried to go a good deed and it backfired. At least you know you tried. Chin up!

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Martin Jones — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:23:19 GMT

Jacquin

There are a couple of things that you MUST do right now: the first is to contact the head of your local social services in person, to complain about the lack of anonymity; not only is it completely unacceptable behaviour to name you, but it's also completely against policy. Talk to the organ grinder.

The second is to force a written confirmation that you have, as a veterinary professional, voiced doubts about the safety of the children with this dog - but that someone in the department, who doesn't have any authority or qualification to do so, has countermanded your advice. When - and it is a when - the dog bites a child, it will not only protect you but will also clearly illuminate the actions taken and so not allow somebody to simply hide it under the rug.

You're feeling bad because this is a bad outcome - you haven't done anything wrong, but you're being made to feel as though you have by people who should be grateful for your concern, not resentful of the paperwork that they might have to fill in. You did the right thing here.

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Jacquin Mitchell — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:50:37 GMT

Update on this:

I had a think about it and after checking with the RCVS that I was okay doing this, I spoke to SS.

The lady I talked to said the family were known to them, but the case wasn't active and she'd make a note and someone 'might' ring me. She took my name and number for that purpose.

Today I got a phone call from a SW saying they'd been round to visit the house, unannounced and the dog had been bouncy and a bit growly but hadn't bitten them and showed no signs of aggression to the baby. But they had told the lady that it was me who had requested a visit!!!!! She's upset and furious and doesn't want me back to do the second bit of the vaccination which she's paid for. I don't blame her and will refund her money so she can get the second half done( she paid for the whole course upfront ).

I'm pretty cross and said if I'd known that they were going to quote me as the source, I certainly wouldn't have contacted SS at this point. The lady admitted there seems to have been a 'miscommunication' ; I guess I'm naive, but I thought someone might have rung me back to discuss it and then made an appointment to go and visit the house. Instead they did an unannounced visit and checked with all the kids' schools as well! So be warned if any of you ever think of getting in touch with them.

Anyhow, they've decided the dog isn't a danger to the baby so I guess I've done my bit so why do I feel so bad?

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Robert Whiteford — Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:46:58 GMT

Sorry, of course its 'Right to Roam' - LOL

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Robert Whiteford — Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:38:07 GMT

I would echo that call to record your recommendation to PTS and say unequivocally that your advice is to PTS. It's a shame because in another environment these snappy collies can be acceptable.

A distressed farmer client called to have his best working collie PTS because it had bitten someone on his land. Now, this dog always was trying to nip me when I was on the farm, at the boot of the car getting my gear together and I used to swear vehemently at the dog and the farmer! Still, this was an outside dog that was great with sheep and I could actually handle the dog as long as his master held his jaws shut (the dog would not move if his master was holding him). The 'Right to Rome' legislation in Scotland now means that anyone can walk thru this farmers land if they want. Unfortunately this collie did not take kindly to this and bit (without barking or growling) anyone who was on the land away from his master (including the vet). Our client was reported to the police for having a dog 'not under control'.

What to do?

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Utlendigur — Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:23:56 GMT

This sounds very like a case I had last year. Rescue collie 6-8mnths old booked in for 1st vacc. Mum and 2 young kids arrived with the dog - which they'd got off a farm. The dog seemed a bit timid, so I spent some time talking to the owner, then crouched down to talk to the dog, stroked him - seemed fine - until I touched his hind quarters, when he whipped round and nearly took my face off. The reaction was so extreme that I thought there must have been some sort of pain focus, but couldn't find anything once I'd got the dog muzzled but the dog continued to make serious attempts to bite even with a muzzle. The owner was insistent that the dog was fine with them. I advised that they reurned the dog to the farm, pointed out that I thought it was totally unsafe to have around children - what would happen if one of the kid's friends patted the dog or fell over it, and it attacked the child etc. I even refused to vaccinate it - told them I wouldn't charge for the consult but instead asked them to think about it for a few days. Tried everything, but they kept the dog, had it vaccinated and castrated (with difficulty each time). It's behaviour got steadily worse, and they became more afraid of it. Eventually several months later they phoned for a house visit to pts the dog because they were to afraid of it to even get the dog in the car.

I'd be advising pts aswell. Possibly rehome to a more suitable home - but that opens up a can of worms if the dog goes on to bite someone there. Or referral to a behavioural vet plus risk-limiting measures meantime like keeping dog and kids separate. I'd make damn sure the advice to pts was recorded in clinical notes aswell.

I don't think we've seen a particular breed pattern - I can think of a few GSDs, Rotties, Staff x, terriers, collie crosses.

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Amie Glaves — Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:20:51 GMT

Few points I'd like to make...

In my {limited} experience of dealing with behaviour issues, you need sensible owners who are 100% going to listen to you and follow your instructions to the letter. Inconsistency is the biggest hurdle when it comes to dealing with these problems.

Border Collies are notoriously highly strung. The family environment you describe does not sound compatible with that of a young, energetic Border Collie X. It needs stimulation and a lot of individual attention.

I'm going to put my neck on the line here and state that this dog might not need euthanasia. The fact you managed to jab it twice without too much of a fuss is a good thing. I agree with somebody else's comment that there are plenty of nice dogs that deserve homes etc without dealing with screwy ones but erhaps this dog deserves a second chance just not in this home with young children.

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 09 Feb 2010 09:35:28 GMT

Jacquin-contact Royal College b4 Social Services-confidentiality issues

Wynne

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 09 Feb 2010 09:18:48 GMT

I know what you mean about collies - I am always wary of them but mainly because of the way that they bite without warning. And I certainly don't advise them as a pet to get in a family situation for my clients.

[I have to say though that I have two border collies that have been pushed and pulled around by two children (had fingers placed up nostrils and been jumped on while asleep etc....) and I would trust both completely. And the 8 month old one is from a puppy farm in Wales!!! (long story- don't worry - no money exchanged hands!!)]

But I have to say, my particular 'dog from hell' is the westie, followed closely by Jack Russels and Yorkies. I'm sure they see far more injuries from them in hospitals - it's just that the bites aren't usually too severe.

As far as species I've had to euthanase? From what I can remember : two westies, one shar-pei, one bearded collie, one border collie, and 2 huskies - although they were killing sheep (and lots of them) rather than people.

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Vikki Moran — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 23:27:01 GMT

such a difficult situation though.

for the record I have a zero tolerance policy on biting dogs. not for this topic really but in short my in laws have a biting dog, which at christmas i very strongly recommended PTS but in laws can't bear the thought of putting said dog down, they believe that my brother in law, by pulling back on the dogs collar, to stop her picking up a dropped but of food, provoked the dog into biting badly enough that he spent boxing day in casualty. apparetnly that is adequate provocation for a dog to bite, and the inlaws were reassured by beagle rescue that this is normal behaviour, and by no means should the dog be pts. huh. As usual, i know nothing! but i have put my foot down and have said that grandchildren (2 and 4) who live with a very well behaved dog will not be visiting their house if the badly behaved dog is there. i can sense a big battle coming on.

the point i'm trying to make in a roundabout way is that dog owners really don't seem to see how dangerous their own dog is. in the words of my father in law "I can't sentence my little friend to death because of something she might do", they have decided to simply withdraw her from any social situation, whereby she might be "provoked" into biting. NO matter how many times I say this will make her worse, they don't listen.

But I'm sure they aren't alone in this. I suspect the owner of thie collie x pup will feel the same way. she'll think that it's her responsibility if she "rescued" this puppy in the first place, and that she has to keep it going, because it has no other option.

I wonder if there's somewhere that would take it, and rehome it with a more suitable placement. presumably this dog would be better suited to a non family environment? perhaps the best approach is to recommend that you wouldn't want to have a dog like this with young children, no matter what she thinks, it sounds as if this lady has enough to deal with, without a difficult dog. Give her the options, do nothing and risk the dog biting, wounding or even killing a child (dogs that kill children usually are "family pets" that are "provoked" and kill a child, not necessarily because they intend to kill, but because a dog can cause a lot of damage to a child), eithanase the dog, or try to rehome it somewhere where there are no children, and with someone who is experienced with difficult dogs.

if this dog has bitten anyone, then for whatever reason it does so, it has no inhibition where biting is concerned. Dog don't differentiate between adults and kids, when it comes to biting. And a dog this age which is willing to bite, especially if it doesn't even growl first (typical collie) is just not going to be an easy fix.

incidentally, i have been bitten by more collies or collie crosses than any other dog, but i have put to sleep more staffy cross types, but then again, I have worked in merseyside for the last few years, and there's more staffy types than anything else out there.

I don't think collies make good family pets, not unless the owner really knows what they are doing. but i never ever ever trust a collie.

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Jacquin Mitchell — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 22:10:38 GMT

Thanks everyone. Some real food for thought there and I've taken it all on board. Am looking at getting in touch with SS as there are few things that i'd like to talk to them about- not just the dog.

Jacq

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Hanna Bennett — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:36:57 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]

Out of interest, what proportion of the dogs that others on here euthanase for agression are border collies and borderder collie crosses? If memore serves me correctly I have only ever euthanased 3 dogs purely on grounds of aggression to family members and all three were border collies.

Now that may be partly to do with lack of socialisation/interaction etc but.....

[/quote]

for me it is always westies.

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Martin Jones — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:40:36 GMT

Euthanasia. The rights of the children far outweigh the rights of the dog. As Niall points out, babies don't stay babies forever - and pretty soon, the child will become a rival to the dog. That child will get bitten, and it will be too late.

On a separate note, not sure why the delay in socialising; the dog is 7-9 months old, probably has an intact and functioning immune system and is currently more at risk of sudden death from euthanasia than from disease. Immediate socialisation might have been a better way to go - possibly lifesaving. Now, it's just a timebomb.

J, are you keeping computerised records if you only do housecalls? You really need to be able to prove what your advice in this case is. Even a lack of action might be enough to draw you into any future disaster.

Sorry to be so negative, but this is one that just screams, 'Childbiter: let it go!'

Martin

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Niall Taylor — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:25:29 GMT

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]I will talk to my client about the implications of keeping the dog but she insists that the dog would not hurt her or the baby[/quote]

If I was dealing with this case and had reached the "denial" stage as you have I would write a letter to the owner giving your recommendation for euthanasia and explaining the risk that she is taking keeping the dog.

There is a danger to her and the baby, the dog may appear friendly in circumstances where it feels it is in control but when threatened is sounds very like the sort of dog who could and would do a lot of damage in a very short time. And a "threat" to a dog like that might be nothing more than looking at it the wrong way or going too close to its food bowl one day, or a toddler not willing to give up its rusk on demand (babies don't stay babies for ever).

Receiving such a letter, telling her you feel you would be failing in your duty not to advise euthanasia in the strongest possible terms, might just be what she needs to make her come to her senses. If not, well, you have done all you can - some people just don't want to be helped.

Niall

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Jacquin Mitchell — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 13:20:33 GMT

Thanks for your replies. I will talk to my client about the implications of keeping the dog but she insists that the dog would not hurt her or the baby. I didn't see the dog show aggression to the baby while I was there but of course it's always a possibility. I think she is unlikely to agree to euthanasia or rehoming. She feels like she rescued the dog as a puppy and owes it to her to give her a chance :(

I am wondering if she is known to SS as she made a comment about 'having' to go and have the baby weighed at the baby clinic which is kind of unusual once you had more than a couple of kids.

I appreciate all your replies and will do my best to make sure she realises how serious this could be.

Jacq

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Simon Neuhoff — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 13:03:00 GMT

Now that may be partly to do with lack of socialisation/interaction etc but.....

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 11:32:50 GMT

Have to agree with the others that euthanasia would be the best solution. My educated guess is that this bitch was bred on a puppy farm-misalliance between Shi Tzu and farm collie-not socialised unsaleable so having been kept beyond normal sale age the fiends in human form who bred her threatened to drown her. She really hasn't had a chance, but it's impossible to put the clock back, and the problem now is safeguarding the baby, as allowing it to be savaged would just cause a second wrong-pity the breeders can't be put down as well-but unfortunately that would be illegal-more's the pity !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:34:28 GMT

I agree. I always recommend euthanasia for unpredictably aggressive dogs - especially when children are involved. I wouldn't allow an aggressive dog anywhere near my kiddies - so to suggest otherwise to someone else would be wrong of me.

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Clive Ansell — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:28:20 GMT

Aggressive (For whatever reason) dogs and young children or babies are not mutually compatible. This person/parent is irresponsible in keeping this dog when she has young children. Someone could be seriously injured or killed.

The advice has to be; ideally euthanasia but otherwise re home the dog or re home the children.

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Malcolm Ness — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 09:03:20 GMT

Anecdote:

In the dear dark days days beyond recall when I still had some colour in my hair and I spent all my days in primary care practice, I finished an evening surgery and noted that the 5pm "PTS" had not turned up.

I later learned that it was a dog with what might now be called "anger management issues" and in those days, believing that there are few bad dogs and many bad owners, I would have encouraged referral to behaviour therapy. Today, I might do the same but not until I had advised, even urged, the owners to consider euthanasia (and recorded the same indelibly in the clinical record). Why? The same dog, later the same week became front page news when it vented its anger management issue by killing the 9mth old grandchild of the owners.

A tragedy certainly but to this day I am grateful for my bit of personal pure good fortune that led the grandparents to bottle out of their PTS appointment and thereby denied me the opportunity of talking them out of euthanasia.

Be careful, be very careful. At the end of the day, it is a dog and there are enough nice dogs out there that we don't need to try too hard with the nasty ones.

Re: Behavioural help needed- aggressive dog.

Jacquin Mitchell — Sun, 07 Feb 2010 22:10:32 GMT

[quote user="salome2001"]

TBH I'd be looking to refer her to a specialist vet behaviourist and by that I mean a qualified vet with postgrad qualifications, not some puffed up dog trainer.

I would also strongly advise the dog NOT be taken on in a household with a baby. Full stop. And make a record of the conversation in your clinical history. Sad, but you don't want to end up on the end of litigation.

[/quote]

She's on benefits so unless I can find someone who can help through a charity, I doubt she can afford it. Looking at the house ( size and state) there is little doubt money is tight.

My client rescued the dog from being drowned as a puppy while on holiday in Wales and her brother took it on. But now he is very sick and she has taken it on for him. She's not going to rehome it before it savages someone, it's bitten a couple of the older kids I think. I am a little worried about the baby tbh- she's 9 months and crawling/pulling herself up etc.

I have told her what I am concerned about but she's adamant that the dog hasn't touched the baby - i'm not sure she's not got mental health issues although she's tremendously likable. I want to help as much as I can but don't want to get savaged in the process.

Jacq