CPD Allowances

Re: CPD Allowances

James Allsop — Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:49:05 GMT

When I was job hunting back in 2003 i found the typical CPD allowance for SA practice to be around £1000 and 5 days.

At my practice this £1000 fund is for use on course fees only. travel and accomodation is not covered. Courses are discussed and it has been known to run 2 years allowance together to fund a longer course or a 12month modular type with caveats that any un-earned CPD is repaid if the vet leaves the practice as the allowance is pro-rata over the 12month period. This seems to be acceptable to all the staff. Unfortunately the cost of courses has increased and it is becoming more difficult to get your RCVS allowance within the £1000 budget.

Re: CPD Allowances

Toby Birch — Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:34:32 GMT

[quote user="phipps"]

I can recommend the EVECCS (European veterinary emergency and critical care society's congress, held annually around europe. Usually excellent CPD and useful for any one who deals with emergency cases (pretty much all of us?). It sets a reasonably high brow level for the lectures for the most part. It is being held in Cambridge this year in June.

[/quote]

Registration is now open - see www.eveccs2010.org

Re: CPD Allowances

Gareth Dowdeswell — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 16:58:33 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Gareth Dowdeswell"]I get 3 working days CPD yearly[/quote]

eh? but we have to do an average of 5 days per year....are you expected to do the rest in your own time, or just not fulfil RCVS recommendations???

[/quote]

Rest in own time I guess! As a new grad, I don't need to do the 35 hours in my first year as PDP counts as the CPD requirement, so I hadn't thought about it that much. With a couple of evening meetings and time spent reading journals - we have occasional quiet days where there's time for that - I think I'll manage the 35 hours anyway but it's definately something to mention at my next appraisal...

Re: CPD Allowances

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 10:15:51 GMT

[quote user="Gareth Dowdeswell"]I get 3 working days CPD yearly[/quote]

eh? but we have to do an average of 5 days per year....are you expected to do the rest in your own time, or just not fulfil RCVS recommendations???

Re: CPD Allowances

Gareth Dowdeswell — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 10:03:44 GMT

I get 3 working days CPD yearly, there isn't a specific budget so anything reasonable is considered. The main problem I have, like others have mentioned, is the lack of courses in the North West - the South and Midlands seem to be much better served! There are quite frequent regional evening meetings, and whilst I probably don't get as much out of them after a days work as I could, I still find them worthwhile if I pick up a few useful tips.

[quote user="salome2001"]

Maybe the congress organisers could scan everyone's delegate badges at the door and then issue a personalised CPD certificate that lists what lectures were actually attended!!!

[/quote]

When I stewarded at BSAVA as a student 2 years ago there was a trial of this. For some lectures all delegate badges were scanned using handheld scanners as they entered. There were some teething problems with the scanners and it did slow people down entering the lectures but presumably the organisers decided not to continue the trial in following years?

Re: CPD Allowances

Matt Gurney — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:56:23 GMT

Don't forget the RCVS Trust if you are considering CPD, especially conferences abroad. When I was a resident I was lucky enough to get a grant to go to IVECCS in Phoenix which I would thoroughly recommend if you are interested in critical care, emergency medicine and anaesthesia.

Re: CPD Allowances

Rob Reid — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:22:23 GMT

You have a lot of bargaining power !! I wouldn't be compromising on the fees, with the amount of loyalty you have shown they should be paying the whole lot. Malcolm has a point re loyalty though - I would offer to sign a clause that says that if you leave within 1 or 2 years that you will pay back all the fees. From your situation it sounds very unlikely you will bemoving in the near future !!

Remember - good quaity CPD is as much in your employer's interest as yours. Your increased knowledge can be passed on to your colleagues and your increased expertise generates more business and goodwill.

Also I am surprised you don't take all your holiday - if you are salaried then you are effectively working for nothing some days! I don't know about everyone else but I think it is vital to use your holiday entitlement for your own sake, I reckon I wouldn't be far off burn-out if I didn't use all mine!

Good luck with getting the CPD you deserve!

Re: CPD Allowances

Wren — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:50:03 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] [quote user="Wren"]I spent half an hour this afternoon trying to remove it from my profile to no avail. I am now hoping that no-one is nosey enough to look me up![/quote]

Don't worry - I have done it for you: Moved the name of your practice down to be the first line of your address (which noone can see), and replaced it in the name of practice field with 'Anon'.

However, it would be great if you could add some non-identifying information about yourself to your profile, like how long in practice, special areas of interest (in and outside work). It just helps other members realise that you are a genuine bona-fide vet without revealing exactly who you are![/quote]

I am extremely grateful, thank you very much! Will go and compose a suitable biog now....

Re: CPD Allowances

Wren — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:48:46 GMT

Thank you Malcolm, although I now feel rather uncomfortable!

I have been here longer than any other assisstant, have married one of our farm clients and have put down some pretty firm roots in the area so I don't think that anyone has any illusions about me up and leaving in the near future. I may go back to him next year on this as we're getting a bit late to enrol for this year and suggest that I pay half the fees myself. I'll need a bit of saving up time first though! In my defence I haven't asked for much in the form of expensive CPD in the past 10 years, and I rarely use my entire holiday entitlement.

I guess I was so surprised by the positive responses to CPD from some of the other bosses (yourself included) and wanted to gauge whether I was right to be a bit disappointed. I'm sure there are two sides to every story and I will admit to knowing little of the fine detail of the practice finances.

Re: CPD Allowances

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:41:50 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]I spent half an hour this afternoon trying to remove it from my profile to no avail. I am now hoping that no-one is nosey enough to look me up![/quote]

Don't worry - I have done it for you: Moved the name of your practice down to be the first line of your address (which noone can see), and replaced it in the name of practice field with 'Anon'.

Re: CPD Allowances

Malcolm Ness — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:37:50 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

He rejected the idea as 'too expensive' and 'not relevant to the work we do'. I was ready for the expense argument as it is certainly not cheap. But 'not relevant' - I thought it looked perfect for the work we do and that it was aimed exactly at someone like me. After all there is no chance that we'd ever have the facitlities or caseload to sit a RCVS equine certificate doing ambulatory first-opinion horse work in a mixed practice.

(oddly I have chosen to remain anonymous! ;))

[/quote]

As Gillian points out, your anonymity is no more than partial!!

I am surprised by what you write. As you are aware, I know one of your bosses very well and I am sure that he would give any reasonable proposal a fair hearing. If you are convinced that a good financial case can be made, try and sit down again and talk it through. Speaking as a "boss" myself, you should be aware that our ever present worry is the risk that we will pay for expensive CPD only to see the beneficiary use those newly accquired skills to up and off somewhere else, or alternatively demand an immediate pay rise to compensate their additional skills. I suggest expending the discussion to include your longer term plans in the practice and be prepared to offer some kind of financial tie-in or pay-back clause.

As they say up here even further North and East, "Shy bairns get nowt!"

Good luck and give my regards to John.

Malcolm

Re: CPD Allowances

Wren — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:22:06 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Wren"](oddly I have chosen to remain anonymous! ;))[/quote]

erm...maybe putting your practice name in your profile will mean it isn't difficult to work out who you are?

[/quote]

I spent half an hour this afternoon trying to remove it from my profile to no avail. I am now hoping that no-one is nosey enough to look me up!

Re: CPD Allowances

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:47:41 GMT

[quote user="Wren"](oddly I have chosen to remain anonymous! ;))[/quote]

erm...maybe putting your practice name in your profile will mean it isn't difficult to work out who you are?

Re: CPD Allowances

Rob Reid — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:46:58 GMT

Your boss sounds rather backwards to me. From a GP point of view I can vouch for the relevance of the Improve SA Surgery course - was just at the right level for me and I have found it very useful esp the practical sessions. I can't comment on the equine one specifically but when I worked in mixed practice, a colleague did it and his opinions on it were all postive.

On the subject of congresses I personally haven't been to BSAVA although I did go to one of the days of BVHA a few years ago in Basingstoke and found it good. I do feel however I gain more from courses that involve doing some sort of coursework along the way, so the Improve course was great from my point of view. I have just started the CertAVP, all done online through the RVC. I am on the key skills module so far and finding it hard going if I am being honest. Lots of social science style essays but they do make you think a bit especially if you haven't written a non-clinical essay in nearly 15 years! Looking forward to getting into some clincial stuff again later....

Re: CPD Allowances

Wren — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:13:48 GMT

Malcolm, I love your attitude to CPD!

I have worked in the same mixed practice for nearly 10 years, almost entirely working on the equine/LA side. I have wanted to do the Improve modular GP Equine Certificate for a few years now but I am based in the NE of England and the course has always been held in the South West. In 2010 they are also holding the course in Manchester. Perfect! Armed with the relevant research (copy of syllabus, email correspondence and personal opinions from people who had done the course and sat the exam) I made a case to my boss and suggested how it could benefit the practice as well as my own personal development.

I am now disappointed and wondering whether there is anything to aspire to for a first-opinion GP like me? Surely nothing educational is a waste of time or money?

(oddly I have chosen to remain anonymous! ;))

Re: CPD Allowances

Vikki Moran — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 10:36:09 GMT

i was looking at eveccs but couldn't find any information on the cost of it.

yes the social and networking is important, but it can be done without getting so hung over you can't attend any lectures! or that you fall asleep during them all!

Re: CPD Allowances

Glen McIntosh — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:05:20 GMT

I have never been to BSAVA in 13 years of practice in the UK, only went once to one of the satelite group (BAVEC) days and to the industry exhibition - both of which I found very useful and enjoyable. Did some boozing on the canal as well if I remember correctly. I think the social and networking aspect (translation - boozing) of CPD is as important as the CPD itself.

I think BSAVA is probably good quality CPD on the whole, but I prefer to use CPD as a bit of an excuse for some travel as well. Birmingham doesn't quite cut it.

Re: CPD Allowances

Vikki Moran — Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:37:22 GMT

the thing is congress is aimed at the general practitioner wantint to update and improve, not at anyone wanting to study for a certificate, and it can be helpful for those of us normal bods to hear this years residents, after all, if you're not in a university or referral setting, you are not seeing the same level of cases as they are! so i don't object to that, though i think perhaps some of the speakers would objuec tto being referred to as residents!! :)

i do tend to split my time evenly between socialising, lectures and visiting the exhibition (and this year i'll be on the bsava stand for a bit). I try not to get too hungover, because i do want to get into as many lectures as i want to. But those i miss i listen to on the MP3s.

I think it's just hard to find any good quality cpd these days that doesn't cost at least £200 a day, or more. and if you were going to do 4 days of that, it's a lot of money. for a practice or an individual.

I will be paying for my own accommodation at congress this year. I've found somewhere to stay for £265 for the whole time, which i think is good, and only just up the hill from the ICC. my main practice won't be paying, but i'm hoping that since i'm also now locuming and will be filling in a self assessment form, that i can try and offset it?

Re: CPD Allowances

salome2001 — Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:00:57 GMT

I'm going to step in to defend BSAVA congress here... there have been a number of slurs in its direction..

re the "hungover state": I understand that BSAVA congress is treated by some as a four day college reunion with the odd lecture taken if it doesn't conflict with the boozing, but I don't think that's how it's planned (!) and if I was a boss discovering my staff taking such an irresponsible attitude to their congress (paid for my their employer) then I would take a dim (to disciplinary) view of it. (of course, then there are the bosses...)

Maybe the congress organisers could scan everyone's delegate badges at the door and then issue a personalised CPD certificate that lists what lectures were actually attended!!!

Re the quality of lectures: it can vary, sure, depending on the speaker. However some of the US speakers are often the best (and certainly the most entertaining). I have always tried to pick a stream to do each day- opthalmology one day, feline medicine the next- and that way you CAN get a cohesive "course in a day" that is often just as good as an external one day course.

And like vikkivet mentioned above, when the congress registration and hotel is coming out of your own pocket and has to be budgeted for along with the mortgage and the car insurance, you don't spend four days pissing it up in the pubs on the canal.

Re: CPD Allowances

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:41:42 GMT

[quote user="Vikkivet"]to be quite honest that is exactly what I do! I go to congress and that fills my carad up and then i can pick and choose whatever else I do. I must stress I don't JUST do congress, but I know it's covered my full requirement before I even think about anything else.[/quote]

Well, that's OK.

[quote user="Vikkivet"]As a BSAVA committee member (not congress committee though) I feel I must say I would take issue with the "quality" aspect. Admittedly it's not the same level as you'd find if you went to a dedicated CPD event on a particular topic, but if you attend a masterclass session those usually are very good. As a GP I find it quitre useful though to attend lectures that will act as a refresher and keep me up to date, which is the basis of having a CPD requirement - not so much that we all advance and become more specialised (though that's a bonus) but that we all keep up to date.[/quote]

And yes, those are fair comments, but the quality you must admit is very variable and unfortunately unpredictable. And - going off thread - the "masterclasses" I have tried were not master classes, more just slightly advanced lecture sessions. And I do not understand why BSAVA hire US speakers, at what must be considerable expense,to deliver basic or mildly advanced lectures.

[quote user="Vikkivet"]and a full day CPD course at several hundred pounds is actually a whole weeks pay for me[/quote]

I do appreciate the problem, and I think we've been here before on this forum, but there are other means of CPD than going on courses. (I'd want to see some pretty good stuff with a strong practical element before I forked out several hundred pounds for one day!)

Re: CPD Allowances

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:20:31 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]e textbooks and journals - we subscribe to most relevant journals and have a very comprehensive practice library so we would not be up for buying additional personal textbooks or journals.[/quote]

I thought that would be the case, but I was just riding my favourite hobby horse that courses are not the only means of CPD.

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

re the RCVS card - I thought we were talking about professional development!!. It is only the dimwiited Belgravia house bureaucrats who really believe that filling the card is anything remotely to do with continuing professional development!!

BSAVA can be great fun but listening (often in a dulled, hungover state) to last years lecture notes being read by this years residents is not the most effective or efficient use of the CPD dollar.

[/quote]

Ah, agreed, agreed.

Re: CPD Allowances

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:37:02 GMT

Hi Evelyn,

re control - if anyone tried taking the piss like that, the other staff would take them aside and quietly point out that their career aspirations might be beter satisfied elsewhere.

re time off - generally, the odd week day course is treated like a day at work and rotas are adjusted to cover the absence. If it is a week end or a day they would have been off anyway, the CPD is effectively done in their own time. We have a number of people studying for certs or doing diplomas where longer periods (one or two weeks at a stretch) away at other centres. This is done by prior arrangement wrt rotas etc and the time off is unpaid leave of abscence, though we do still pick up travel and accom expenses for these jaunts.

re textbooks and journals - we subscribe to most relevant journals and have a very comprehensive practice library so we would not be up for buying additional personal textbooks or journals.

BSAVA can be great fun but listening (often in a dulled, hungover state) to last years lecture notes being read by this years residents is not the most effective or efficient use of the CPD dollar.

Malcolm

Re: CPD Allowances

Vikki Moran — Sun, 17 Jan 2010 19:34:02 GMT

to be quite honest that is exactly what I do! I go to congress and that fills my carad up and then i can pick and choose whatever else I do. I must stress I don't JUST do congress, but I know it's covered my full requirement before I even think about anything else.

As a BSAVA committee member (not congress committee though) I feel I must say I would take issue with the "quality" aspect. Admittedly it's not the same level as you'd find if you went to a dedicated CPD event on a particular topic, but if you attend a masterclass session those usually are very good. As a GP I find it quitre useful though to attend lectures that will act as a refresher and keep me up to date, which is the basis of having a CPD requirement - not so much that we all advance and become more specialised (though that's a bonus) but that we all keep up to date.

I get congress registration through my committee duties, which is a great help, as my cpd is self funded for the most part, otherwise I wouldn't be able to go. but it also means that my somewhat non-existent cpd budget can go on something i really want to do, rather than trying to spread it out thinly! - I am after all only part time and a full day CPD course at several hundred pounds is actually a whole weeks pay for me.

Re: CPD Allowances

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 17 Jan 2010 17:53:53 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]We pay all vets (and nurses) for any CPD they want to do. We pick up the tab for accomodation, travel and even beer as long as the receipt is in a form that will not upset the tax man. Our belief is that we (as practice owners) will always stand to reap the benefits of a better educated work force.[/quote]

Interesting. You must take some control, though, surely. Suppose some chap wants to take two or three days off twenty times a year? That would cause some mutterings among colleagues if nothing else.

If they take days off for courses when they would have been working, do they have to make the time up in any way? And if they take days off for courses when they would have been off anyway, would you entertain a claim for more time off in lieu?

Is it only courses you pay for? Suppose an assistant asked for £500 to buy themselves some textbooks and journals - and if they wanted two days off to study textbooks - would you refuse?

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]The reason for this is that the quality/quantity of CPD on offer at bsava congress is not reflected in the cost.[/quote]

I'd agree about quality, but I'm not so sure about quantity: you could just about fill up your "RCVS card" (if you wanted to) just by registering for the whole congress.

Re: CPD Allowances

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:13:10 GMT

We pay all vets (and nurses) for any CPD they want to do. We pick up the tab for accomodation, travel and even beer as long as the receipt is in a form that will not upset the tax man. Our belief is that we (as practice owners) will always stand to reap the benefits of a better educated work force.

The "catches" are that for CPD we have a "pay back" clause in the contract such that if we spend £1000=00 on their CPD and they leave straight away, then they refund it. After a year all liability goes.

BSAVA congress is an exception which they go to only if they can get free registration (winning an award, being a BSAVA volunteer or writing and presenting a clinical research abstract). The reason for this is that the quality/quantity of CPD on offer at bsava congress is not reflected in the cost.

We strongly encourage and suppory study towards a qualification - the study then tends to be more targetted, more effective and the efficacy more easily seen.

Malcolm N.