It seems unfair, is it legal?

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Vikki Halliday LLB — Tue, 02 Feb 2010 22:27:00 GMT

[quote user="katja wagner"]

so if there is a nation wide weather chaos like now my boss knows i try my best to find a way to come in and i know he wont punish me if just cant make it.

[/quote]

Unfortunately they are not all as sensible and morally adjusted as your boss.......Sigh.

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 13:26:47 GMT

Explains a lot Hanna!

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Hanna Bennett — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:47:40 GMT

we thankfully have no branch practices, and have vet on call and late nurse rotad so any late complicated cases are dealt with by the appropriate staff (although that may necessitate the more experienced vets staying around to assist if there is a possibility that more may need doing) so this situation does not arise. Having said that when there are cases that require extra nursing staff we will usually have volunteers, but most of our vets run for the doors if it is not their night on call.

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

katja wagner — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:04:25 GMT

I have never been able to have a "9-5" attitude in this job, i feel thats just not possible ,what shall i do with the last appointment case that needs to be placed on fluids an o.p. or wathever necessary,i real dont like to pass my cases on and i dont think its fair to let an animal wait till the colleague on call drives over after he or she finished consults at the branch practice .

i have locumed once at a place where nurses and vets left spot on in time at 6 p.m. and found it rather horrible as whatever was left behind was done by the few staff members who did not have the heart to do so including myself ,which i think is unfair and puts a lot of strain on this people who then get overworked and frustrated with time.

i know that i probably work more hours then i should but there are also the days when for example i have my half day finish at 1 p.m. but i am allowed to go earlier if it is quiet and enough other vets in,i t dosent happen a lot but whenever possible my boss has in my opinion a fair attitude . i feel its vital to have a give and take attitude on both sides and it helps a lot to create a good team there will always be a few who wont pull their weight but they have to make this up with themselfes and the boss,doesnt bother me at all!

so if there is a nation wide weather chaos like now my boss knows i try my best to find a way to come in and i know he wont punish me if just cant make it.

cheers katja

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Hanna Bennett — Sun, 10 Jan 2010 18:33:39 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Hanna Bennett"]Interestingly the ones who are paid by the hour were expecting not to be paid, and the ones on a salary were[/quote]

Do you pay overtime to salaried staff? Or do they always stick rigidly to their official hours?

[/quote]

nope, they don't get overtime, but with the exception of the practice manager they don't often do any. Me and my partner are the ones who stay behind to assist less experienced vets, make phone calls we don't have time for during the day after six, and work through lunch. The rest run out the door at the dot of six and sit around chatting over lunch. Odd occasions they have to do extra as cover they get the time back, but most of the time any cover required is also provided by me or my partner. Back when we did all our own on call we took six months to replace a vet as there were no suitable candidates available, so between the two of us we covered all the extra nights and weekends on call as no one else even thought of offering to help. I know this is ultimately the responsibility of the owners of the practice, but when i was an assistant i worked in a practice where the partners refused to do weekends and paid us a pittance to do theirs for them. Unsurprisingly i didn't stay there long. Personally i think our vets have a fairly easy deal compared to alot of people on this forum who seem to work 50 hour weeks and consider it normal! I would not expect my staff to do that, but equally i expect them to work for their salary!

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:11:10 GMT

[quote user="Hanna Bennett"]Interestingly the ones who are paid by the hour were expecting not to be paid, and the ones on a salary were[/quote]

Do you pay overtime to salaried staff? Or do they always stick rigidly to their official hours?

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Hanna Bennett — Sun, 10 Jan 2010 15:31:27 GMT

but why should i pay someone to do a job they are not doing?

It was a decision that was discussed with staff, not made without input. Interestingly the ones who are paid by the hour were expecting not to be paid, and the ones on a salary were. Maybe this a vets vs nurses/receptionists thing but given there were more staff who didnt expect to be paid than did we went with the majority. Our staff thankfully seem to have an appreciation that we need to make money in order to pay their wages.

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Rob Loxley — Sun, 10 Jan 2010 11:16:12 GMT

[quote user="Hanna Bennett"]

we have instead opted to offer people the option to have unpaid leave if they cannot make it in or have to go home as they are worried about the travelling

[/quote]

Is this not just another way of saying 'we'll dock your wages'?

IMHO it's a case of give and take; the ethos with which you want to run your business and treat your staff; how valuable keeping your staff happy/motivated is; and maybe how much you want your staff to start idly leafing through the pages of the jobs section.

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Sarah Wheeler — Sat, 09 Jan 2010 20:59:20 GMT

I know what you meant Hannah!

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 09 Jan 2010 10:30:58 GMT

I'll let you all continue your linguistic studies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:20:21 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] If we're talking about colloqualisms, in Simon's wife's place I would have been tempted to say "Twll tin i'r diawl "[/quote]

Google translates that as: "hole tin the Diawl", which leaves me none the wiser

[/quote]

Google has got it hopelessly wrong!

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 17:49:34 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] If we're talking about colloqualisms, in Simon's wife's place I would have been tempted to say "Twll tin i'r diawl "[/quote]

Google translates that as: "hole tin the Diawl", which leaves me none the wiser

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:22:24 GMT

[quote user="Judith Joyce"]I don't think it is fair, appropriate or true to say that everyone was thinking the same way. My thought (as a long time employer and former employee) was that there wasn't enough information to come to any good conclusion.[/quote]

Exactly what I was thinking, though you have put it far more eloquently than I would have.

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Judith Joyce — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 13:55:26 GMT

Interesting thread.

I don't think it is fair, appropriate or true to say that everyone was thinking the same way. My thought (as a long time employer and former employee) was that there wasn't enough information to come to any good conclusion. There are good bosses and bad just as there are good employees and bad but most of us fit somewhere in between and get along trying to do their best.

Mr Wray is to diplomacy what Margaret Thatcher was to socialism but there is some truth in what he says - there is no sentiment in employment law. The "them and us" , boss and worker distinction in small businesses like most vet practices is naive and usually very damaging. The money that is going to pay the stay at home vets is often coming straight out of the pocket of the struggled into work boss so there is usually a strong personal element.

At the very least, Mrs N's boss appears to have been short sighted and I am guessing that she is already taking an interest in the jobs pages. On the other hand, it might be that the boss is astute and this is just the result he/she wanted. (not jumping to conclusions, merely pointing out how little we really know about the situation).

As others have said, there must be a good deal of give and take and in most practices, most of the time that is what happens. At present I am enjoying a short holiday sound in the knowledge that the practice is in safe hands - email updates from work tell me that almost everyone has made it in (big snow in Northumberland and the Borders is not that unusual) and two of our staff chose to stay overnight at the hospital rather than risk not getting in the next day - including one mother of an 8 year old who works for us part time and live 60 miles away.

It isn't all roses with us and there are people out there who think that we are complete s***s as employers and we hope they do well in their new jobs!

If things don't work out for Mr and Mrs N, perhaps they would consider relocating to Northumberland - we are always keen to hear from dedicated, enthusiastic vets and though we are a long way from Surrey you might enjoy life on the right side of the North South divide!!

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Simon Neuhoff — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 11:12:02 GMT

Thanks for all the replies to this thread. The posts from the practice owners have certainly given me food for thought and the supportive posts have been welcome.

I do accept that even in our profession there are individuals who would use the current situation to "skive" out of work. In my personal experience these individuals are few and far between and when they do pop up the practice as a whole is well aware of their general attitude. As such, whilst I understand the usefulness of a "one size fits all" policy in these circumstances, by and large I think this is less essential in a small veterinary practice as opposed to a large employer such as Sainsbury's for example. It seems that various employers highlighted on this thread have adopted an individualised approach and it also seems that such an approach can pay dividends in creating goodwill in the practice. As a further example my boss called me on the first morning to check if I would get in ok and urged me not to "break my neck" getting in as it was anticipated to be very quiet. He also sent all those staff members with difficult journeys home early on both days. His management style appears to be working in that the staff all seem happy and everyone has arrived for work on each day. In stark contrast the approach at my wife's practice has created ill feeling amongst a number of staff members.

I am not currently an employer but someday it is likely that I will be. At the very least I have learned quite a bit from this experience.

My apologies to any who have been offended by this thread. I had not anticipated creating such a strong reaction nor had I intended to do so.

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 11:09:41 GMT

If we're talking about colloqualisms, in Simon's wife's place I would have been tempted to say "Twll tin i'r diawl "

Arlo I hope none of those are on the forbidden list !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wynne

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 10:36:12 GMT

Total agreement with Katja and Mike. Gillian said earlier that one cannot necessarily buy loyalty, but one can definitely hand it away. Simon 's wife's employer has certainly done that-has no-one but himself to blame if all the staff work to rule from now on

In situations like this if everyone pulls together as far as they are able, but no-one is penalised if their best attempts fail, then (looking positive ) it can be a team -building exercise

Wynne

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

salome2001 — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 10:34:09 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

But to be fair, Salome2001, nobody has been labelled as a "skiving unreliable waste of an employee".

[/quote]

True. But we were all thinking it :)

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 10:28:05 GMT

[quote user="salome2001"]So it's all right to label someone (who also hasn't appeared on the site to defend herself either) as a skiving unreliable waste of an employee, but not to use a colloqialism because it is considered rude by some people. [/quote]

But to be fair, Salome2001, nobody has been labelled as a "skiving unreliable waste of an employee".

[quote user="salome2001"]Or it is Mr Wray's somewhat selective definition of "libel" that has caused the ruckus.[/quote]

No it isn't. I agree with you that it's a bit OTT to start talking about libel in relation to the use of a colloqialism.

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Mike Martin — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 09:30:32 GMT

[quote user="katja wagner"]i was just thinking how often i work unpaid overtime,all the busy days working through without a decent break ,staying late in the evening ,missing my half days , staying on after saturday consults not bothering my colleague on call for the quick stitch up aso,..[/quote]

Well said. There has to be some give and take, tolerance and understanding.

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

salome2001 — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 09:29:03 GMT

So it's all right to label someone (who also hasn't appeared on the site to defend herself either) as a skiving unreliable waste of an employee, but not to use a colloqialism because it is considered rude by some people. Or it is Mr Wray's somewhat selective definition of "libel" that has caused the ruckus.

I don't know who the boss in question is, I don't really care. His actions are what has earned him that particular epithet in my opinion. It seems I'm not alone in thinking it either. I'm sorry if the word offended sensitive souls, but I make no apology for the assessment.

By the way, I'm going back to supervising toddlers now. They're more fun because they say what they mean.

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 08:46:53 GMT

Hmm - I've had a complaint about the fact that someone here (NOT the originator of the thread, I hasten to add) directed a somewhat personal insult at someone else in the profession (who is not a member of the site).

On reflection, I don't think that personal insults are really appropriate for this forum. There are lots of forums where people do nothing but sling mud at each other. I don't want this to become one of them.

I also tend to agree with Martin who made the point that whilst only one person said it, everyone else was probably thinking it - sometimes it really isn't necessary to say anything at all.

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Martin Jones — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 21:46:47 GMT

Hanna

As somebody on the other side of the employment fence, how about a really nice bottle of wine/box of chocs/bunch of flowers for anybody who did make it in? Show some appreciation, rather than worrying about who's not carrying the flag for you.

Again as somebody on the other side of the fence, I can say that this means something. I was in the village shop this evening. Sharon, who works on the till, was serving her partner, who'd come in for their groceries. The store owner happened to come past, and said 'that's OK, guys, have those on the house to say thanks for getting to work today'. It was only a fiver's worth of stuff, but it clearly made a big impact. It might be beads for the natives, but sometimes us natives like being given beads......

Martin

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 20:23:40 GMT

Our situation was simpler - staff that lived within walking distance made it in, and are getting an extra day off. No one else made it in! Not as complicated as at your place!

Re: It seems unfair, is it legal?

Hanna Bennett — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 20:03:38 GMT

I'm not supporting the somewhat unsympathetic attitude of the boss in question, assuming the conversation went as rudely as it is portrayed here, but we discussed the matter politely with our staff on Wednesday and this was the agreed option. We don't force people to come to work but neither do we want people taking the mick, and we had to make a rule that applied to everyone. I will not punish people for living close to work.

The problem with giving those people who worked the day a day off in lieu cf Gillian, is that for us the snow started after 8am so some people did not make it in (and were told to go home when they phoned to say there was a problem), but others made it in and then went home at stages thru the day. So do you give them back three hours, four? Difficult to do so, when one receptionist spent three hours trying to get home again, so do we compensate for this time when she only spent fifteen minutes at work before her husband phoned to say the weather was worsening at home so she should head home immediately. I drove in at eight, got to work fine, but chose to leave early as i live fifteen miles from work. We were quiet enough for this not to impact on the afternoon, but my partner lives much closer and can walk to work, so stayed til the end of the day - it seems a little unfair to me to expect him to work through the bad weather just because i choose to live further away. As it happens i spent last night at the practice with a very sick dog, so it saved me worrying about getting home again.

Number of staff rotad to work tuesday - 18. Number of staff who were still present for the last few hours of consults - 7.

Currently roads are good, but we felt it was better to clarify matters before any further problems arose. I would also point out that we paid everyone for Tuesday as the matter had not been discussed prior to this.