Are vets expensive?

Re: Are vets expensive?

Rob Loxley — Sun, 10 Jan 2010 11:23:10 GMT

I remember reading somewhere a while ago something along the lines of "if 10% of people aren't complaining you're too expensive, you're not charging enough, as 10% of people will still think you're too cheap".
You then need to show you're good value, which is another thing entirely.

Re: Are vets expensive?

Tim Mainland — Sat, 09 Jan 2010 17:35:17 GMT

Cat,

Whilst it's difficult to get any average figures from small privately owned practices, and profitability will vary hugely, you may find it useful to look at the performance of CVS, thinking of it as somewhat representative of a large group of SA practices. It has the benefit of economies of scale but also has to push profitability forward to keep its backers happy. As a PLC their figures are in the public arena.

http://www.hemscott.com/companies/company-summary.do?companyId=6354

This link will give you somewhere to start. I havent looked recently but I seem to recall that their net profit was around 13-14% last year. That's not a lot of safety margin. Would not take much of a downturn to turn a 13% profit into a loss. To get an equivalent figure for a private practice you would need to remove from the profit figure an appropriate salary for the proprietor(s) based on their work done in the practice.

Re: Are vets expensive?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 09 Jan 2010 10:58:27 GMT

The argument that people can't afford veterinary fees may be valid in areas where there is no PDSA, and there will always be the irresponsible who take on commitments they can't possibly afford and then expect everyone else to bail them out, but luckily it doesn't apply in Swansea. I worked very hard to get where I am, and consider I deserve a decent remuneration. After all there are enough adverts for pet insurence out there, that no-one has any excuse for not knowing that there is a way of spreading the cost

I do a LOT of very cheap ( only charge for drugs, and that at 10% mark-up ) work for some local re-homing charities (truly deserving cases ) I can only afford to do that because I have a decent profit margin on ordinary clients I have 6 horses at full livery 4 of these are actually the legal property of the RSPCA and were signed -over after their former owners were prosecuted and banned. They are now permanently fostered by me I consider my 1st responsibility is to ensure I make enough profit to keep paying their livery fees, and pay their insurence, so if one of them needs surgery, I won't be expecting another veterinary surgeon to work for an unrealistically low sum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Richard Do we really need the bottom layer????????????????? They are also the ones who have probably bought the puppy as cheaply as possible in the 1st place, and so are supporting the evil puppy-farming industry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Without them, we would probably all be less stressed, as well as wealthier.

You have listed food/insurence/time/veterinary surgeons/ kennels. We are only 1 factor amongst many

Cat A useful statistic for you A client came in this morning He lives 5 miles away, and is unable (for medical reasons ) to drive He told me that a one -way taxi fare cost £14-50 I do house visits, so (if necessary ) will be able to justify the 1st £29 for a 5 mile call-out, as just the taxi fare, and the taxi driver does not have to finance a practice premises, or pay support staff

Evelyn Thanks for your support

Wynne

Re: Are vets expensive?

Richard Carter — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:13:40 GMT

Well according to a very good article in the latest Vet practice (which I now cannot lay my hands on) the Fort Dodge indices are showing that a good proportion of the '70%' or whatever the number is are heeding your comments and no longer taking on pets, which means the bottom layer of our pyramid (think first time buyers here) isn't there anymore BECAUSE of the perception (and truth) that owning a pet is going to be expensive in terms of food/ insurance/ time/ vets/ kennels. They really don't care how many years we studied, what equipment we have invested in etc as they have voted with their feet and wallets.

Re: Are vets expensive?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:09:30 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]

If we all 'cherry pick' the top 30% who can afford the higher fees, who takes care of the welfare of the other 70% who cannot?

[/quote]

Wynne didn't suggest that we all do the same thing, just that it's one option.

And if her practice is anything like mine, she will still be treating quite a few patients owned by the other 70%. Some of those 70% will be somehow finding the money anyway, and I suspect that for others Wynne finds ways and means to ensure that welfare is attended to, since she has the time and energy to see each patient as an individual.

"Can't afford" sometimes really means "don't want to revise my spending plans".

And after that, there will probably be the cheapjack practice down the road, see a different vet every time, in, bad ear eh, here's some drops, twenty quid please, goodbye, we shut at seven, after that you'll have to go forty miles to our ooh provider

Re: Are vets expensive?

Richard Carter — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 15:36:49 GMT

[quote user="salome2001"]should the 70% who "cannot afford the higher fees" have a pet in the first place? Or should they have to take responsibility for the fact that their pet will only be able to get basic treatment because it's all they can afford?[/quote]

Which means that for many of these people vet fees will be too expensive... so we shouldn't have too much to worry about when this programme comes out then...

Re: Are vets expensive?

Cat Henstridge — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 14:26:29 GMT

Hi all,

Thanks very much for your input, especially the info on average wages. It is all very helpful, I am writing the blog this weekend. I don't know when the program will be coming out be it's best to be prepared!

Cat

Re: Are vets expensive?

salome2001 — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 12:53:59 GMT

To put the cat among the pigeons (and maybe go too off topic for this one): should the 70% who "cannot afford the higher fees" have a pet in the first place? Or should they have to take responsibility for the fact that their pet will only be able to get basic treatment because it's all they can afford? Perish the thought.

The existence of the charity hospitals in this country means too many people think they can have a pet and not have to face the reality of private health care for it. I don't begrudge the OAPs their companion cat in their twilight years (and have been an active supporter of many such charities in my time here). But we all know that they are routinely abused by the sector of people in our society who expect to have the world delivered to them without making any effort to provide for themselves.

Re: Are vets expensive?

Richard Carter — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 12:37:28 GMT

If we all 'cherry pick' the top 30% who can afford the higher fees, who takes care of the welfare of the other 70% who cannot?

Re: Are vets expensive?

salome2001 — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 11:19:37 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I decided enough was enough, and raised fees enough to lose enough clients that the work-load became tolerable, and the gross profit per case increased. Since then I have been better off financially, as well as far less stressed

[/quote]

If you are providing a better, more thorough service to your clients, you are getting much more job satisfaction, your staff is happier and less stressed, your clients are getting the attention they are paying for, and your patients are reaping the benefits then this seems to me a good way. I did read somewhere that the bottom 30% or so of your clients generate only about 10% of your income, so losing the time-wasters (we all have them) is no real loss.

It gets back to value (and your clients' perception of it)

IMHO.

Re: Are vets expensive?

salome2001 — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 11:12:46 GMT

jumping back to hanna there (I couldn't get the quote thing to work, sorry): first: no problem :)

secondly regarding contacting the RCVS, I totally agree that bad apples deserve to be disciplined, but I think that you need to pick your battle carefully and make sure that any accusation of bringing the profession into disrepute is based on hideous negligence, incompetance or deliberate fraud, rather than a difference of ethics. Otherwise you run the risk of having a decision that you don't believe is right, and allowing a precedent to be set that does nobody any good. :(]

(for the record, I left)

Re: Are vets expensive?

Richard Carter — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 11:07:04 GMT

On the expenses side - why is it ok for my drug bill to increase by a few pence per item every time I order?? Surely some of the 'responsibility' for the size of the bill starts with the cost of the medicines used/ dispensed. My GP doesn't spend about a 1/4 - 1/3 of takings paying off a drugs bill.

Re: Are vets expensive?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 10:50:36 GMT

PS to above

I really should apologise to Salome, as I hadn't checked her details, so did not realise that she wasn't anonymous-Sorry

There are 2 topics under discussion here, the original one -are veterinary fees too expensive ? My reply to that would be a definite NO and I would be prepared to vigorously defend my position

The 2nd topic is -are some veterinary surgeons unethical. Unfortunately the answer there is that a small minority are, and for the sake of the rest of us, need disciplining

Wynne

Re: Are vets expensive?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 11:05:06 GMT

To get back to Cat's original question Gareth Cross in this weeks Veterinary Practice said that in 2004 the cost of the NHS was 8.3% of GDP I knew it was huge, but not this much, and they don't have to charge VAT and it's legal for them to use generics, and equipment costs the same regardless of whether the end consumer has 2 or 4 legs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Emphasize what amazing value we provide

Julian, to take your point on fees. I bought this practice when it was single-handed, spent 3 years trying to build it up by being financially competitive with other practices in the area. I worked really hard, built it up to a point when I could afford an assistant, employed one, the receipts dropped, the assistant became unaffordable, so had to go. This happened 3 times, so I decided enough was enough, and raised fees enough to lose enough clients that the work-load became tolerable, and the gross profit per case increased. Since then I have been better off financially, as well as far less stressed

Wynne

Re: Are vets expensive?

Mike Martin — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 10:42:50 GMT

Now we know the average salary of vets, and getting back to the original thread, my point is.....

[quote user="Mike Martin"]This is not an excessive salary for such a well qualified professional and thus vets are not reaping the rewards of expensive of veterinary care. [/quote]

Re: Are vets expensive?

Hanna Bennett — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 23:35:29 GMT

the figures i've quoted are our total package, we don't supply car, but do include rcvs fees, bsava fees, cpd etc.

SPVS assistants salary survey 2009 has figures of 31k median for new grads, and 40k + median for vets over 5 years qualified - this is total package.

Re: Are vets expensive?

Julian Earl — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 22:47:26 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Hanna Bennett"]

[quote user="Mike Martin"]

The average salary of an employed vet is around £25-£30K and a partner £40-£90K. Others have put very useful links to salaries of different trades and professions on this forum elsewhere. This is not an excessive salary for such a well qualified professional and thus vets are not reaping the rewards of expensive of veterinary care.

[/quote]

beg to disagree, we start our new grads on 30k these days, and our more experienced vets are on up to 40k. Still not that much when you break it down into hours worked mind...

[/quote]

I was thinking something similar - our salary range from new grad to 10yr experienced is 27K - 40K. Pay peanuts, get monkeys......lol

[/quote]

Having recently interviewed new graduates, I am told that they are being offered about £23,000 per year. But don't forget the benefits of house, car, CPD, and other miscellaneous benefits; furthermore, it depends on the rota and part of the country one is in. Yet don't they still tend to lose you money for the first six months or is that a veterinary urban myth?

Going off at a tangent maybe (but someone did refer to this up there^ somewhere), "we" regularly state that "we" undercharge for our services but in so doing seem to have forgotten the three golden words of economics: supply and demand. This nonsense (that I have heard numerous times over the years) about doubling your fees and so cutting your workload by 50 per cent and being better off as a result is just that: nonsense. I would suggest that if most practices doubled their fees they would not lose 50 per cent of their clients, but vastly more - 90 per cent maybe? If it really works, why not double fees again, and again, and again? Because we wouldn't have any clients at all, that's why.

So we pay assistants what we can afford to pay. I would happily double salaries and wages for all my staff, but unfortunately I would go bust if I did so. Which rather defeats the object I think.

Re: Are vets expensive?

salome2001 — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 22:16:19 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] (incidentally, who are you ?)[/quote]

She isn't hiding - she has her name and details in her profile!

[/quote]

that's right :)

Re: Are vets expensive?

salome2001 — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 22:07:10 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Salome That sounds appalling The correct course of action for you to take in this instance would be a complaint to Royal College. Then the facts can be thrashed out in an open court

If the bottom line is suffering, then the fees are too low, possibly because the opposition are also undercharging

[/quote]

Wynne, it's one of those tricky ones. You think one thing, the practice principal thinks another (so let's remove that 9cm diameter ulcerated infected mammary tumour in a 15 year old dog...) in this case the thing that really got my back up was that the owner initially brought it in for euthanasia and was convinced "we could give the dog another few months with the surgery". Draw your own conclusions, I didn't like the conclusion I came to.

Re: Are vets expensive?

Ian Mostyn — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 21:54:14 GMT

[quote user="Mike Martin"]

I followed this link to the National Office of Stats (link). But here is a direct link to the 2009 table (direct link), vets are line 92. The median is £29.4K and the mean is £33.5K.

[/quote]

That includes part time work. The tab for full time has a median of £33.2k and mean of £39k. Full time male and part time figures are not available but full-time female is just over £32k for mean and median. Maybe it is the difference in sexes? or hours worked? Maybe women are doing less on-call hours or less total hours (where does part-time become full-time?)

Ian

Re: Are vets expensive?

Rebecca MacMillan — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 20:24:31 GMT

[[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

I was thinking something similar - our salary range from new grad to 10yr experienced is 27K - 40K. Pay peanuts, get monkeys......lol

[/quote]

Cue monkey noises from over here then....

Re: Are vets expensive?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 14:10:02 GMT

wow. I'm amazed! Maybe vet assistants really do need a union....

Re: Are vets expensive?

Mike Martin — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 12:48:38 GMT

I followed this link to the National Office of Stats (link). But here is a direct link to the 2009 table (direct link), vets are line 92. The median is £29.4K and the mean is £33.5K.

Re: Are vets expensive?

Mike Martin — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 12:25:47 GMT

[quote user="Trident"]2) The average salary for a vet is lower than most other professions including dentists, doctors, accountants, surveyors, engineers and teachers. http://is.gd/uCDy If we really are after money, we could go into any number of other professions with less stress, shorter hours and more money![/quote]

This quote from another thread gives a list of salaries. Vets "average" £30.7K on this survey (dated 2007). Obviously, participation in this forum reflects the good vets and practices who pay well above average....

Re: Are vets expensive?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:21:54 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] (incidentally, who are you ?)[/quote]

She isn't hiding - she has her name and details in her profile!