Length of University terms

Re: Length of University terms

Hanna Bennett — Mon, 28 Dec 2009 19:55:43 GMT

not defending all folk on other degrees, but had a friend who did English Lit at Uni, and admittedly she had far fewer hours of lectures than we did but had to do alot more work off her own bat, and spent far more hours in the library than i did. and she had a part time job too.

Re: Length of University terms

Rebecca MacMillan — Mon, 28 Dec 2009 19:44:22 GMT

[quote user="Ian Mostyn"]

There were a lot of other courses who did 10 - 16 hours of work each week, they are ripe for shortening into 2 years but does this lower the value of the degree? Perhaps they should be diplomas rather than degrees? I very much doubt that the veterinary degree will be shortened.

[/quote]

I think that there are an awful lot of degrees which are dragged out over three years which could easily be completed in two, as Ian says there are some courses that do much fewer hours per week than the veterinary course. Maybe I'm just bitter because while I was in halls of residence in 1st year, I was trying to get a good nights sleep for 9am dissections and exams, whilst other students were up til all hours most nights because they only had to go into uni a couple of days a week or something silly like that!! Surely this is something tax payers should be annoyed about, helping subsidise education that is a year longer than it need be?

The veterinary course could probably be updated, with less biochemistry and statistics and more clinical work, but five years is about right for the course as a whole, four and a half at a push maybe. If the veterinary course was condensed too much then students would be stretched even further and have much less free time for socialising, clubs and jobs, which may in turn create more stress and mental health issues.

So I'm all for tightening up these 'part time' degrees, if only to make vet students feel less hard done by in term time!

Re: Length of University terms

sarah mason — Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:17:02 GMT

I agree Gillian, that maturity is a personal thing-I did knuckle down for my first degree as well as having fun, and a job. I just know that I personally would not have gained as much from the vet course as a first degree.

What I did see is people on the vet course struggling to balance uni with personal life and scraping through exams and rotations as a result, and I think a few more years before starting the course would benefit most students and allow them to approach the course more confidently and enjoy it more.

I think the discussion about student funding will go on forever and is a seperate debate, if I ever have children I will save for them to go to uni and make sure they have every opportunity to have the best education, but I would also expect them to take loans and jobs to learn the value of money, and appreciate what they have. Students now have far more disposable income than our generation-because people in general have more (or did before the credit crunch). Hence students driving around in 10K+ cars-not a single person in my 1st degree even had a car-and the vet students I knew then had old bangers in clinical years.

Peoples parents income and what they spend it on is all relative-a 20K family income to support 2 children in the north is different from a 20K family income to support 5 children in the south for example . The people I was talking about were the students whose parents had re-mortgaged their house/used their life savings etc to fund the vet course as a second degree- a massive sacrifice for the parents I agree but not something someone from a council house can do.

Re: Length of University terms

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:29:47 GMT

Hear hear!

Re: Length of University terms

Clive Ansell — Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:28:23 GMT

Gillian - I think tuition fees should be abolished and university education should be 100% tax payer funded and looked upon as an investment for the future, giving equal access to all from all backgrounds. However, I do think wealthier people could and should help support poorer ones, as they already do, through the taxation system.

Re: Length of University terms

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 27 Dec 2009 22:53:06 GMT

[quote user="sarah mason"] I would still not choose to have done the vet degree as my first degree because i was not mature enough, and would have missed out on the fun I had in my first degree.[/quote]

Maturity is a personal thing - I was very happy to knuckle down for my degree at 18 years old. In fact, I felt that the sooner I graduated and strted to earn a wage, the better. I enjoyed my time at Uni but the social life was secondary to my dreams of being a vet. Maybe that's where the fault lies - expecting uni to be more about a social life than an education.

[quote user="sarah mason"]I do think that the majority of vet students come from wealthy backgrounds anyway, even the ones who claim to be poor still are much better off than my parents. [/quote]

I'd agree that there are a lot of wealthy people on the vet course but I really don't think that has anything to do with the cost of Uni (or didn't in my day) but everything to do with the ability of the 'poorer people' to access good secondary education. If you could get good A level grades, you could go on the vet course. I'm convinced that making the course longer and more expensive will change that accessibility.

I guess from your comments that because some parents do manage to help their children with money you think they are wealthier than they say. Both my parents started work at 15, dad as a builder's labourer and mum in a book binding factory. The fact that they saved money our whole lives to afford to send me and my sister Uni doesn't mean they were wealthy. Some parents are willing to make massive sacrifices to get their children to Uni - making it even more expensive makes that impossible.

Clive:

The idea that wealthy people should subsidise the poor is also wrong. If you go to a private school such as Eton you have already saved the country a fortune because it didn't have to educate you (the idea behind the Conservatives assisted places scheme - which enabled me to go to a local grammar school. I was almost completely funded). If you go to a state funded Uni you are entitled to the same as every other student - their parents already pay a lot of tax afterall!!

Re: Length of University terms

Clive Ansell — Sun, 27 Dec 2009 11:20:19 GMT

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/dec/27/wealthy-university-students-pay-more

Re: Length of University terms

sarah mason — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 22:10:45 GMT

I funded myself through a BSc 1993-1997, via a small grant, a student loan and a job-12 hours per week during term and as many hours as i could get during every holiday. not a single penny of help from my parents.

I funded my own 2nd degree as well, via a professional development loan, student loans, grants, scholarships and work. The BSc qualified me to tutor A level biology and I also worked in Asda. During term time I worked between 8-15 hours a week depending if it was lectures (more hours) or clinical (worked less hours). In the holidays I planned my EMS to fit around work and managed to work full time for 12 weeks one summer, 8 the next and 5 the next.

I graduated with massive debt-but don't regret a penny of it. I would still not choose to have done the vet degree as my first degree because i was not mature enough, and would have missed out on the fun I had in my first degree.

I do think that the majority of vet students come from wealthy backgrounds anyway, even the ones who claim to be poor still are much better off than my parents. If the course was changed to 6 years then the LEA would fund it-they do for Cambridge/intercalating students.

Re: Length of University terms

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 16:39:38 GMT

Absolutely Clive - it is such a shame. Like you, I graduated (in 1999) with the help of a small but much needed grant - students now aren't so lucky. In my insignificant opinion the government need to stop trying to get everyone to Uni, and therefore not being able to fund anyone, and go back to just those that get good grades being able to go - and gain a USEFUL and academic degree. There need to be alternative routes for those that aren't academic - such as good quality apprenticeships! But that is a whole new topic......

I know that in the USA it takes a lot longer to graduate as a vet because you do two degrees, - but I wouldn't really want to see that here.

Re: Length of University terms

Clive Ansell — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 14:22:10 GMT

Gillian, I think it is already becoming a vocation only for the wealthy. The way it is going with the general lack of political will to fund higher education properly, and the soaring levels of student debt I feel veterinary science will be only for the rich. 5 years of living and tuition fees is an enormous cost, and together with the renumeration once qualified being so poor compared to other professions, I understandably can see many being put off.

I had a fourth year student with me earlier in the year who had completed a previous degree, so was paying full tuition fees, and she estimated she would qualify with £70,000 of debt!

I was lucky. I qualified in 1996 with the help of a grant and LEA paid tuition fees and had almost no debt on graduation. As a mature student I had no parental support and got through by careful living, some savings and working holidays and weekends milking cows and driving hgv's.

Re: Length of University terms

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:49:52 GMT

[quote user="sarah mason"]Students should do a 3 year BSc and get experience of animal work in their spare time (pre-clinical EMS), have the experience of a "normal degree" and then do a 3-4 year intensive clinical degree with EMS commitments and just normal amounts of holiday. [/quote]

I for one would have struggled to afford a 7 year university course - my parents struggled to keep me until I was 23 - any longer would have been a real burden. I suppose I could have taken out lots of student loans but my parents hated the idea of me being in massive debt on graduation so I chose to live frugally on what they could afford plus my student grant (and 3 years lambing all Easter!) Plus having the vet degree as a second separate course, meaning tuition fees for that would no longer be paid by your LEA, would mean a massive cost! Making it such a long course would be taking the course back to being for the wealthy

Re: Length of University terms

Tim Cheyne — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 06:14:18 GMT

[quote user="sarah mason"]

I think we should change the system totally and make veterinary science a second degree. Students should do a 3 year BSc and get experience of animal work in their spare time (pre-clinical EMS), have the experience of a "normal degree" and then do a 3-4 year intensive clinical degree with EMS commitments and just normal amounts of holiday.

[/quote]

Wasn't that basically the system at Cambridge when it first started; three years of 'Natural Sciences' and then three years in the Veterinary School? Is it still? Did it work?

Also, the RVC did, and possibly still does, offer an extra year in pre-clinical years for an intercalated BSc (Physiology or Anatomy, I think) before proceeding to clinical years. I am not sure that it was much value to those intending to practise, though. Most of the very few that I knew went into academia and/or research.

Tim.

Re: Length of University terms

sarah mason — Sat, 26 Dec 2009 04:34:38 GMT

I think that would give people a chance to mature and be more prepared for the commitment required for the clinical course. the cost would be similar to a BVSc with intercalation.

Re: Length of University terms

Clive Ansell — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 14:33:40 GMT

On second thoughts make it about 20 years; I really enjoyed my undergraduate days. I was a mature student and managed to graduate with almost no debt by working weekends and holidays in addition to a tiny grant, and still manged to go off travelling and mountaineering - great time.

Re: Length of University terms

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 14:11:15 GMT

[quote user="Rudolph"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]If anything the veterinary course should be extended, we worked hard and struggled to fit everything in the 5 years[/quote]

Don't you think, though, that if they removed all the nonsense like statistics, embryology, physics and - dare I say it - biochemistry, clinical education could begin a bit earlier and the course would be comfortable at 5 years?

[/quote]

Nah, drop everything irrelevant and cut it down to three months. Well, all right, six months.

Re: Length of University terms

Clive Ansell — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 11:02:53 GMT

[quote user="Rudolph"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]If anything the veterinary course should be extended, we worked hard and struggled to fit everything in the 5 years[/quote]

[/quote]

It may have changed since I qualified in 1996. During our course most of what we learned was useful and it would be difficult to remove much, although I admit statistics and biochemistry were over the top and on the whole very badly taught. I think it is difficult to know what is and is not useful at the time, I was discussing a case with a colleague recently and embryology came into it for some reason.

Our course seemed disjointed at times, there was repetition of material from different departments - we were taught how an egg is formed in a hen 3 times. Sometimes material was missed because various departments thought another had covered it - we started lectures in haematology, yet the physiology of haemostasis had not been covered. Our course needed streamlining with more efficient use of time available

Re: Length of University terms

Rudolph — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:22:34 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]If anything the veterinary course should be extended, we worked hard and struggled to fit everything in the 5 years[/quote]

Re: Length of University terms

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 09:52:05 GMT

I agree with Clive that it would be desirable to extend the overall length, and amount of EMS inthe veterinary course. But if standard students have their courses reduced to 2 years, and veterinary students have theirs extended to 6 (7 at Cambridge ), then unless they have extra funding they will be even worse off than everyone else on graduating

Wynne

Re: Length of University terms

Clive Ansell — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 08:26:08 GMT

If anything the veterinary course should be extended, we worked hard and struggled to fit everything in the 5 years. Certainly wouldn't be possible in less time. With the advancement of veterinary science there must be even more to learn now.

The government wants to cram as many students through higher education as possible, whilst at the same time reducing funding with the inevitable consequence that quality will have to suffer. Their agenda is to keep dole queues as short as possible, and be able to bleat that a record number of people go to university. The fact that many graduates will be unemployed or unemployable is neither here nor there to them.

Re: Length of University terms

Ian Mostyn — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 20:59:50 GMT

We did 186 weeks including ems which if you include the legal minimum 4.6 weeks holiday each year, you can just about squeeze the course into 4 1/2 years rather than 5. There were a lot of other courses who did 10 - 16 hours of work each week, they are ripe for shortening into 2 years but does this lower the value of the degree? Perhaps they should be diplomas rather than degrees? I very much doubt that the veterinary degree will be shortened.

Ian