getting hold of generic opioids!

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 20:01:24 GMT

Check the cost of Buprecare - it's cheaper than Vetergesic, don't know if cheaper than Temgesic though. Enjoy Raro! When you're flying home, pay attention to the "liquids and gels in a separate clear plastic bag thing" - the lady on security was distinctly unimpressed as she confiscated my toothpaste, lip balm, and sunscreen from my hand luggage - they take it as seriously as any other airport I've been in.

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

Tim Cheyne — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 18:16:01 GMT

I agree with Jonathan Wray's implication that people in UK often do not understand the problems of sending even simple medicines and equipment across borders. Some years ago the BVA Overseas Group appealed for unwanted equipment and donations of syringes and needles to be sent through them to developing countries. The idea was that, to save costs, young volunteers would carry them when visiting the country. I wrote and said "don't do it. A young man, possibly long-haired and casually dressed, arriving at a border with a knapsack full of syringes and needles is a recipe for disaster. Freight them, properly documented, to an organisation that has agreed to arrange clearance." I received a rather sniffy reply and heard no more.

However, Rosie does seem to be aware of the problems and, I hope, has the correct answers. I wish her well on this project.

Tim.

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

Clive Ansell — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:52:44 GMT

[quote user="Rosie Skinner"]

Hi all,

I am going to be doing some work for an overseas veterinary charity clinic next month and I need to bring a bag of supplies with me. I need to find the cheapest source of injectable buprenoprphine, butorphanol and potentially morphine that I can as I don't want to waste the charity's hard earned resources!

Does anyone know the cheapest form of these injectables that I can get (legally)? I know that dolorex is cheaper than Torbugesic, and that temgesic is cheaper than vetergesic, but are there any other even cheaper generics that I can get ? A veterinary licence is not important (I hope! - don't think the Cook Islands have any rules on that sort of thing). Exporting the drugs won't be a problem as last time I told every airport security person I could find that I was carrying controlled drugs and they didn't care.

Thanks,

Rosie

[/quote]

I did a 6 week volunteer stint in Greece in 2001. I was a bit apprehensive about going through international borders and airport securities carrying opiates, so I didn't.

can you simplify and just use one opiate instead of three? maybe just use Buphrenorphine for example?

I wrote to some of the drug companies before my trip and was able to get small amounts of Rimadyl, Domitor, xylazine, thiopentone, propofol, vicryl, pds etc. These were either just out of date or close to it. Worth a try though?

I was able to buy Ketamine, Buphrenorphine and antibiotics in Athens with no trouble at all, in fact I just told staff in high street chemist that I was a vet and they supplied it (including 12 bottles of Ketamine), no proof or prescription needed.

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

J G Wray — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:59:11 GMT

Dear Ms Skinner,

[quote user="Rosie Skinner"] It is all in order and above board I assure you Mr Wray![/quote]

I have no doubt about it, but then this end and the other end were never going to be the problem were they? It's the stuff in between each end and afterwards when the nice lady vet from the other side of the world has gone home that I was asking about.

What are you going to do with the leftovers for instance? Are you going to destroy them or supply opioids to people you barely know on the basis of trust that they will use them judiciously?

These are grown up questions, and I'm asking them specifically because you started a thread about acquiring cheap, out of date controlled drugs and carrying and supplying them. The reason is above reproach and you should do it if you can, but what responsibility do you have for your actions - none?

Regs

JGW

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

Rosie_Skinner — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 11:51:56 GMT

Thanks Wynne, I won't let him put me off!

I have been to the Cooks before to do the same thing, and before I went I contacted the home office, the airline and the overseas dept at the BVA about carrying drugs abroad. All I need is my RCVS certificate and a letter from the clinic that I am working for, the controlled drugs were all in my hand luggage in a sealed tupperware box with a list of it's contents taped on the outside. Rarotonga is a very small Island and the only way the animals get any veterinary care there is via the clinic that I will be working in. The ONLY way to get drugs there is via the volunteer vets and the customs officials in Rarotonga know our clinic well, and their animals are treated there (for free like everybody elses animals). It is all in order and above board I assure you Mr Wray!

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 11:18:24 GMT

Rosie Don't let Jonathon put you off on this, but just to be extra careful, contact Prof Conduct dept at RCVS for legal advice I'm sure they will go out of their way to smooth out any possible legal probs on this one-VDS are another good source of advice

Wynne

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

J G Wray — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 10:59:49 GMT

Dear Ms Skinner,

So, there's no veterinary regulation on the Cook Islands. Therefore, there is no licence for you, no legal protection for you, no one to issue an international licence for this.

The proposition you put to us is that you need to take a bag of opioids around the world.

Let's say for the sake of argument you have to fly from UK via New Zealand.

First, there's the small problem of taking opioids out of this country in a bag. Then there's the issue of taking a bag of opioids into NZ, whether you are carrying them or they are in cargo. You'll know if this is an issue if the nice Customs lady there stops smiling and puts a latex glove on.

It'll be interesting to see whether your MRCVS (UK) and a letter from the charity will impress them.

Whatever letters of authority you might get will never give you carte blanche. You will be expected to detail what you are taking. Do you have enough time? Do you know who to ask? After all, as you say, there are no veterinary authorities in the Cook Islands.

If you succeed in getting these opioids onto the islands, how will they be used after you've left? Can you really really believe that they won't be misused and if they are, what would your involvelment /accountability be?

At least you're not in Melanesia where Payback still operates.

Regs

JGW

PS Let's not get on to storage temperatures in transit and any deterioration in efficacy issues. They'll probably do no harm to your patients.

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

Glen McIntosh — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 23:52:18 GMT

[quote user="Rosie Skinner"]so we could probably cobble together some sort of council, with regular meetings on the beach and pay our subs to each other in the form of ice- cold kiwi beer.[/quote]

Change that to ice cold aussie beer and that's the type of self-regulating profession I'm talking about.

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

Rosie_Skinner — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:57:57 GMT

[quote user="phipps"] anyone with a veterinary qualification automatically becomes president, treasurer and the bulk of the council of any RCVS equivalent upon entry to the Cook Islands. [/quote]

There will be about 4 vets in the whole of the Cooks Islands when I get there, so we could probably cobble together some sort of council, with regular meetings on the beach and pay our subs to each other in the form of ice- cold kiwi beer.

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

Glen McIntosh — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 21:46:30 GMT

Dear Mr Wray,

Below, for your interest, is a recent photograph of the Cook Islands parliament building:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Parliament_of_the_Cook_Islands_-_2006.JPG

With a voting population of less than the number of vets in the UK, scaling down I suspect the building that houses the RCVS equivalent in the Cook Islands amounts to a park bench in the gardens of the parliament grounds and that anyone with a veterinary qualification automatically becomes president, treasurer and the bulk of the council of any RCVS equivalent upon entry to the Cook Islands.

The Cook Islands parliament has produced legislation regarding plants, doctors, nurses, terrorism and wandering animals, inter alia, but none regulating the practice of veterinary medicine and surgery.

Yours sincerely,

Mr phipps esq.

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

Rosie_Skinner — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:31:32 GMT

No.

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

J G Wray — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:15:54 GMT

Dear Ms Skinner,

[quote user="Rosie Skinner"] am going to be doing some work for an overseas veterinary charity clinic next month and I need to bring a bag of supplies with me.[/quote]

Not so long ago I came across a vet who was going to another EU country for a fortnight, accomodation supplied, to neuter local cats.

I asked them whether they had registered with the equivalent of the RCVS for the duration of their stay. They looked at me blankly.

I asked her again what she would think of a Southern European vet coming over to man an ad hoc charity neutering clinic in this country without informing the RCVS. Then she caught my drift.

Do you need anyone's permission to perform veterinary surgery in this clinic?

Regs

JGW

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

Rosie_Skinner — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:41:36 GMT

Thanks Wynne, it's actually a great clinic, not really 3rd world, we have isoflo, and aircon in the 'theatre' and even an x ray machine now! all run by donations, it's run by an American woman who is very good at fund raising in the US and they get lots of funding from Australian and NZ tourists as well. It's amazing how generous some people are. Animals there are generally well cared for, but there is the odd case of intentional cruelty/neglect, which is always upsetting. Mind you I've seen worse cases in the UK!

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:44:04 GMT

Good luck I really admire people who can cope with 3rd world conditions I know I would find it too upsetting

Wynne

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

Rosie_Skinner — Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:38:43 GMT

thanks, I spoke to a lovely pharmacist in boots this evening and she was very helpful!

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

Laurence Webb — Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:45:29 GMT

If your local pharmacy can't help then try a hospital pharmacy

Re: getting hold of generic opioids!

Ian Mostyn — Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:03:45 GMT

Speak to your local pharmacy. They usually have access to the cheapest human generics. I have been cultivating my two local pharmacists for the past 6 years and they are extremely helpful whenever I need them. I suspect you wont be able to get out-of-date opiods due to the controlled nature but they may be able to help with just out-of-dat other drugs that are perfectly good to use

Ian