injured stray dogs

Re: injured stray dogs

Hanna Bennett — Tue, 01 Dec 2009 20:18:27 GMT

the rspca state in all correspondence that they do not pay any costs towards stray dogs, we have established this so there is no surprises to be had surely?

Re: injured stray dogs

Richard Carter — Tue, 01 Dec 2009 14:22:22 GMT

Have to really endorse this aspect - we treat strays, and hold them until dog warden/ RSPCA/ cats protection can collect or identify. Yes there are costs but most of the costs are overheads anyway and more than 50% of the strays are owned and reclaimed with resultant excellent press. At the end of the day, my reputation is more important than some money - think of it as advertising...

Re: injured stray dogs

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 01 Dec 2009 13:45:08 GMT

[quote user="Toby Birch"]In line with this thread I thought I would try to get a log number for IET. They point blankly refused as they don't take any responsibility for dogs! What can I say.......[/quote]

As I said.......

Re: injured stray dogs

Robert Whiteford — Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:15:24 GMT

Firstly, the person who engages your services foots the bill.(taking into account local agreements - get the police officer's number). Notwithstanding the requirement to provide first aid on an emergency basis you must tell the caller that they have now engaged your services( in a nice way! )

Anything else is up for negotiation( taking into account local agreements).

If the patient is badly injured and there is a police officer present you can ask him to ask you to euthenase the animal under your advice that the animal is suffering.(euthenasia is a good way of alleviating suffering - otherwise someone may claim that you caused unnecessary suffering by prolonging life, to generate a bill, to charge someone else for your services etc). Seldom can someone come in behind you and claim, for certain ,that the animal was not suffering and that there was something else that could have been done.

Re: injured stray dogs

Toby Birch — Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:05:27 GMT

[quote user="Hanna Bennett"]

surely if the police call you in they are due for the bill?

[/quote]

They are. That wasn't the point. I had not told the RSPCA about the police just wanted to see if I could get a log number for an injured dog.

Re: injured stray dogs

Hanna Bennett — Mon, 30 Nov 2009 20:33:49 GMT

surely if the police call you in they are due for the bill?

Re: injured stray dogs

Toby Birch — Mon, 30 Nov 2009 20:18:36 GMT

Having followed this discussion with some interest I thought I would share a case from this morning with you.

Car v (owned but unidentifiable) Collie. Found lying half on the road at 7am. Called in, and presented by the Police. In shock and with a likely fractured pelvis. So far so good - except for the dog.

We do a lot of emergency work for the RSPCA and generally have a very good relationship with the local ACOs, inspectors and branch. HQ are a different matter!

In line with this thread I thought I would try to get a log number for IET. They point blankly refused as they don't take any responsibility for dogs! What can I say.......

Re: injured stray dogs

Ian Mostyn — Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:56:12 GMT

Just a quick update on the original dog. She is doing much better now, only a very slight limp and a few grazes still. The owners brought in their PDSA green form today so at least we should get something. I wont be pushing them too hard if there is a balance outstanding.

Ian

Re: injured stray dogs

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:41:05 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]should morally be expected to pay for the treatment - if you hadn't provided it then there would be not pet to take home. [/quote]

Morally, yes. And some do. Legally, 'fraid not. No contract, you see.

A little inconsequential story:

A concerned lady brought in a run-over cat she had found on the main road. It was concussed and had numerous superficial cuts, grazes and bruises but no fractures or life-threatening injuries. We treated it and after a couple of days it was good. About the same time we traced the owners, who were not existing clients. Mrs. Owner came in, a fairly well-dressed lady not lacking in earrings. She cuddled the cat, smiles all round, and as I hovered near the desk preparing to ask for some money she dropped a tenner on the counter, said "you'll have to let me know if it's more" and was gone. Well, later that day, I phoned them up and said sixty quid would be a bit fairer. However I was talking to Mr Owner now. "What, sixty pounds, that's just ridiculous for treating a stray cat for two days " As I sometimes do, with a view to drawing a few parallels, I asked him what he did for a living. When he told me, I just cracked out laughing.

He ran a building firm.

Re: injured stray dogs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:45:22 GMT

Paddy I totally agree with you. The essential point is having a policy in place. I am not ungenerous, and do a lot of charity work either FOC or a hugely discounted rates, and have frequently repaired fractured femurs in stray RTA cats and housed them until they are rehomed for the RSPCA fee. In every case I have done so willingly, and voluntarily, but that decision has been my choice. My duty stopped at obeying the Guide to Professional Conduct. What I am objecting to is assistants or locums taking it for granted that they can be allowed to donate someone else's money

Clive. If you were doing a locum for me , I would set you a limit of £200 inc VAT if charged to a normal client, and tell you to phone me if you wanted to exceed this amount. I haven't been abroad for years, and an rarely uncontactable by either land-line or mobile for more than a few hours at a time, so you should be able to get hold of me b4 you had exceeded your limit, and I don't regard time-off as so sacrosanct to object to being phoned. One of your non-contactable scenarios was illness. If I was unconcious in ICU (truly uncontactable )I would expect you to observe the limit, or pay anything over out of your own pocket. If I merely had flu (far more likely ), then I would expect you to phone. Lifting up a phone from the bedside table would not send me into a terminal decline-apoplexy from not being asked might !!!!!!!

Other practice owners may feel differently. The important thing as Paddy has said is to have a policy. Clive, ask practitioners what they want you to do, and as long as it is compliant with the Gto PT, obey. Don't just assume. Even those of us who are normally generous become incensed when this generosity is taken for granted

Gillian This dog was obviously too ill to be moved to whichever practice normally does the local authority work, so the Council have a statutory duty to pay you, and unless it is truly so badly injured as to be incurable, which this one obviously wasn't can't euthanase in under 7 days.It might be worth getting your solicitor to write a letter pointing this out, although you will have had to contact them when it was brought in.The police coughed up when my solicitor wrote to them!!!!

Wynne

Re: injured stray dogs

Glen McIntosh — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 11:08:43 GMT

[quote user="Patrick Marshall"]

This topic seems to have generated some heated debate. I have the following comments:

1. As part of "life's rich pageant " injured and ill animals without an owner present are bound to be presented to practices from time to time. Having an explicit policy for dealing with this situation is in everyone's interest. There is no perfect answer but having a policy as a starting point is better than no policy at all.

2. "Getting it right" can be challenging but creates enormous good-will both with those directly involved (staff, people who brought the animal in, owner re-united with pet and even clients in the waiting room at the time of the admisssion etc.) and also in the wider perspective of your practice reputation and public perception of the Veterinary Profession generally.

3. "Getting it wrong" has exactly the reverse effect and it can take a great amount more time to deal with the fall-out than the relatively straightforward things that can be done to ameliorate what is often a difficult situation.

4. Any policy has to take account of our statutory and ethical obligations but should go beyond that in creating a framework that all practice members are happy with or at least accept as workable.

5. Knowing that at some stage this situation IS going to arise, it makes sense to have established contact with and devised a working relationship with the local dog warden, rspca (local and regional) and other interested parties locally BEFORE you need to call on their services. Once these bridges are broken it is very difficult to mend them.

6. It is worth creating a fund to help pay for these cases (and other times when clients may require assistance). Many clients prefer to give to our "assistance fund" than to give to other charities - find a way of letting them do so.

7. Where possible we apply a "rule of thirds" - practice or assistance fund pays 1/3, charity pays 1/3, client pays 1/3 of cost - which may or may not have been discounted. We always price up these cases correctly then take a view. It is much easier to remove cost than add it on later.

8. Every case will not have a perfect or even satisfactory outcome but the ones that do (mended patient, happy owner, happy person who brought the animal in, happy staff, practice re-imbursed, good PR) leave a rosy-glow that takes some time to fade.

Paddy Marshall

[/quote]

IMHO a very healthy approach to the issue, and very well put. Amen.

Re: injured stray dogs

PATRICK MARSHALL — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 09:24:26 GMT

This topic seems to have generated some heated debate. I have the following comments:

4. Any policy has to take account of our statutory and ethical obligations but should go beyond that in creating a framework that all practice members are happy with or at least accept as workable.

Paddy Marshall

Re: injured stray dogs

Laurence Webb — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 01:14:28 GMT

.[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Laurence If you left a cat for 5 days with a broken leg and no analgesia, then this would be a prosecution case. The options would be surgery as the leg would be more comfortable once fixed, and adequate analgesia, or immediate euthanasia. Both options are ethically correct, but only those bearing the cost (practice owners ) are entitled to authorise the first

Wynne

[/quote]Sorry, didn't explain what I meant properly - if you have a cat with a pneumothorax you have to make an immediate decision whether to treat it or euthanase it. If you have a cat with a fractured leg then you have to decide how long to give it analgesia before repair or euthanasia

An owner turning up the day after you have treated a cat's pneumothorax (assuming that it would have died without your intervention) should morally be expected to pay for the treatment - if you hadn't provided it then there would be not pet to take home.

A cat with a fractured leg would probably not have died (although it would have been in distress). The owner could argue that they should have the cat back without paying anything towards it treatment as, had they been aware of the injury, that they would still have a cat that was alive.

What I was questioning was whether there may be an argument that fees incured in saving an aminals life may be legally recoverable (if the owner wants the animal back) whilst fees incurred in the relief of suffering (above euthanasia) aren't.

Re: injured stray dogs

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:55:37 GMT

Incidentally, can you guess its breed?

Yep - staffie!!

Re: injured stray dogs

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:54:55 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Gillian In the case of your dog, the Council dog wardens are legally responsible for strays, so if you had phoned them, they would have been legally forced to collect it and give it appropriate treatment for 7 days. [/quote]

But by then I had already given first aid, which included shock dose fluids and a fair few drugs due to its significant head injury (it was fitting on presentation) and road rash. As I have said, the dog recovered well and the owners collected it the next day. And I do feel good that as a practice we helped it. But the owners say they have no money and you cannot claim fees from the council unless the dog warden brings the dog in. Maybe taking the council to court would be effective....but who would have the time for that?

Re: injured stray dogs

Utlendigur — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 14:42:37 GMT

Slightly off topic. During consults on day, one of our ANAs came through clutching a geriatric black cat with a head tilt and cataracts that a member of the public had found "cruelly dumped". Conversation went something like

ANA " I don't suppose you recognise this?"

Me "Yes, his name's Ralph"

ANA giving one of those Oh yeah looks "Very funny, pull the other one"

I did actually remember the cat, but not the owner's name. But a computer search - at least it was Ralph, not Fluffy - gave the details and 20minutes later a panic stricken owner arrived to collect a much loved pet. Due to his health problems he was kept confined indoors (so no collar or chip), but workmen had left a door open. Had I not recognised him, the owner would have probably continued to search the woods and fields, not thinking to ring the vets many miles away, and in some practices he may well have been pts. As it was the owner went around telling everyone what fantastic vets we were so sometimes it pays not to be too hasty with the Euthatal

Re: injured stray dogs

Clive Ansell — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 11:07:37 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Wynne

[/quote]

If I was presented with this as a locum what would you want me to do? if the owner was not around to ask, and if no instruction to the contrary were left I would probably provide 24-48 hours analgesia then euthanase if no owner had come forward.

Re: injured stray dogs

Clive Ansell — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:54:46 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Clive You've got it spot-on with the comment on practice manual. Given the way this thread has developed, your Freudian slip saying raped instead of rapped is highly appropriate, because that is really the crux of the matter., whether or not consent has been given. When I have a stray presented, I treat it, and treat it properly, but it's MY money I'm giving away. If you were doing a locum for me, I would tell you to do the same in my absence. I would however react to unauthorised free treatment over and above that demanded in the Guide to Professional Conduct in exactly the same way as if you had taken money to the value of the drugs used from the till !!!!!!

It seems to me that in the case of this cat, 2 or possibly 3 people are at fault-the practice owner for not making policy crystal clear to you, and possibly for not making the nurse aware that if the person bringing the animal in was instructed to phone the RSPCA for a log number, then at least £60 + VAT could be claimed. Possibly the nurse for not remembering this instruction if it had been given, and yourself for giving away someone else's property (drugs ) without their consent

Wynne

[/quote]

That would be just fine, as you would be leaving clear and concise instructions. The drugs I gave were essential I think most would agree, but the taking of radiographs is a grey area I know, and it is these that cause the conflicts.

Would you have taken exception to the taking of radiographs as I did? I didn't want the situation arising of the cat been hospitalised for several days before being euthanased, if the rads had shown surgery was required I would have euthanased immediately.

I'm not sure blame is the right word, we are all trying to do the same thing in providing essential only care to strays without spending too much (of the bosses/owners) money. If anyone is to blame in my case it has to be the practice owner, as this was a managemental issue given that no protocol was in place and no instructions were given.

Re: injured stray dogs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:41:37 GMT

Wynne

Re: injured stray dogs

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:20:24 GMT

Gillian In the case of your dog, the Council dog wardens are legally responsible for strays, so if you had phoned them, they would have been legally forced to collect it and give it appropriate treatment for 7 days. Again, it might have been necessary to get the member of public who brought it in to phone them If it was your professional opinion that it was too ill to be moved then they could be sued for it's treatment as they would be in breach of statutuory responsibilities if they did not pay. The problem, of course, is that your solicitor (now they don't do freebies, I wonder why ?) might charge you more for one letter than you get paid for treating the dog-who's overcharging ?????

Wynne

Re: injured stray dogs

Clive Ansell — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 23:14:38 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]It should go in front of a judge in court and be debated with the view of setting a precedent.[/quote]

There are already plenty of precedents for this, it's simple: no prior agreement = no contract = no payment.

It's strange how the definition of "minimal, essential first aid" varies depending on whether the person administering the "first aid" is paying for it or not. X-rays are not first aid.

Niall

[/quote]

Yes I agree x-rays are not essential first aid. In this case I wanted radiographs so I could decide whether or not surgery would be required, and if so then I would have euthanased.

Just write it in the practice manual so everyone knows, for example "No radiographs on strays without prior permission of the owner/a partner"

Re: injured stray dogs

Clive Ansell — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 23:02:41 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"] Ideally have a practice protocol.[/quote]

But I seem to remember in another thread you said you ignored practice protocol if you didn't like it.

[/quote]

No, I don't want or like to ignore a protocol, but if I feel strongly enough that it is wrong for some reason I will do, but I would try to adhere to it as much as I could.

In this case with the cat, there was no protocol or practice policy at all that I was made aware of, and no possible way of discussing with the practice owner, so I had to decide.

Re: injured stray dogs

Laurence Webb — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:41:24 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

If you abandon your car on the motorway hard shoulder and the police arrange to have it moved, you are liable for the costs even though you did not instruct the recovery company to move it.

[/quote]

You pay the costs of removal as it's illegal to leave a car on the motorway hard shoulder. It's not illegal to own a cat that gets hit by a car. You're only negligent if you know the cat has been injured and you fail to provide it with veterinary care.

Leaving your car unattended on a motorway hard shoulder threfore automatically gets you a removal fee. If you turned up to find that the broken radiator that caused it to break down had been replaced and you owed a garage £800 for work that you hadn't authorised then you'd be pretty annoyed and would, quite rightly, refuse to pay. Similarly if you discovered that your cat had been injured and had received treatment without your authorisation then you aren't legally required to pay.

The RSPCA's £60 is enough money to provide short term pain relief or euthanasia if the problem is severe. After that point then it's either up to the practice to bear further costs or to move the cat onto a rescue society to pay for further treatment. If neither of these are available then euthanasia is the only other option. Payment from reuniting a cat with the owner is nice, but not automatic

I'd be interested to know what the legal position is on the payment of fees for an animal that would have died without veterinary intervention. In that case the owner shouldn't expect to have their pet back without paying for treatment as, had the treatment not been given then there would be no pet.

I suppose that this doesn't cover 'relief of suffering' as you could leave a cat with a broken leg for 5 days and no analgesia without it dying. You can't leave a cat with severe dyspnoea due to a pneumothorax for 5 days though as you either need to treat it, euthanase it or watch it die.

Re: injured stray dogs

Niall Taylor — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:26:45 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]It should go in front of a judge in court and be debated with the view of setting a precedent.[/quote]

There are already plenty of precedents for this, it's simple: no prior agreement = no contract = no payment.

It's strange how the definition of "minimal, essential first aid" varies depending on whether the person administering the "first aid" is paying for it or not. X-rays are not first aid.

Niall

Re: injured stray dogs

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:19:11 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"] Ideally have a practice protocol.[/quote]

But I seem to remember in another thread you said you ignored practice protocol if you didn't like it.