Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:12:43 GMT

New car! I'm a vet, I can't afford a new car. Guess you'll have to stick with the old banger a little longer.

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:50:06 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I tend to discourage pedigree dogs altogether, there are many good healthy cross breed dogs wanting a good home in rescue centres. [/quote]

Shame on you - I was hoping to buy a new car next year. With the advice you're giving out, that'll never happen now!

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Sarah Wheeler — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:50:05 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]

By providing the puppy farms with veterinary treatment you are as bad as the people who buy the dogs. Auguably worse, as you know what you are condoning. Puppy farms are places of cruelty and neglect where dogs are abused simply to make cash. If you know who and where they are, report them to the council/RSPCA/Trading Standards, do not stand by and let them carry on.

[/quote]

By providing the veterinary treatment, at least the pups we see get vaccinated and the sick ones get treated. If we didn't treat them, there would be more of them vaccinated with Irish vaccines and we all know how well those work. Most of the breeders are licensed by the councils actually and don't worry if we had serious concerns about any of our clients we would address them. I still maintain that the breeders that use vets are not the ones we should really be worried about; the dodgy ones don't use vets!

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Utlendigur — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:13:33 GMT

Agree with the comments about puppy farms in Wales - but don't forget there was (is?) a subsidy for farmers to "diversify", including into puppy farming. I suspect those with some vet input are the better of a bad lot - given the proximity to Ireland there will be a lot illegally importing POMs including vaccines - and maybe puppies also?

Also agree with the comments about irresponsible owners.We had one last week who was referred from local RSPCA clinic for us to remove a mammary tumour - owner spent 25minutes of 10minute admission consult complaining about cost, being asked to pay something, having to leave the dog (she expected it to be done while she waited) etc etc - she even wanted the various charities the practice was contacting on her behalf for help with the bill to pay her bus fare! Or the lad who wanted his puppy vaccinated for free "cos I'm on benefits, like", who was given the form for pdsa petaid but told he was expected to budget for things like vaccinations, and who kicked off - "I've just paid 400 quid for this pup, if anything happens to it, it'll be your f*!$**g fault".

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:16:50 GMT

Clive

Hear, hear,hear !!!!!!!

Wynne

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:41:13 GMT

What we can do is try and educate people to get new puppies from reputable sources, always inspect the premises and ask to see the parents. Try to discourage layby transactions where there is no means of tracing the breeders. Maybe more publicity is needed from the profession, the RSPCA and the media to draw attention to it.

I tend to discourage pedigree dogs altogether, there are many good healthy cross breed dogs wanting a good home in rescue centres. From the clients point of view a good hybrid vigour cross breed is likely to spend less time and money with us too.

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:31:18 GMT

It's well known in this area that if parvo sticker but no signature

a)parvo is endemic on that farm, hence the need for "preliminary parvo at 6 weeks

b) it's never been seen by a veterinarian, and the vaccine has probavly been illegally imported from Ireland, and was not refrigerated on the ferry, so doubtfull efficacy

c) if label from bottle, rather than proper sticker, prob 1 bottle of vaccine stretched between 2 puppies

Clive Short of getting trading standards to set up a "sting " operation, difficult to know what to do, as breeders are untraceable

Wynne

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 12:39:29 GMT

[quote user="Rudolph"]

Also, I think you could apply a similar argument to the PDSA and similar charities, who provide veterinary treatment to people who clearly have no idea of responsibility towards their pets. By giving them free treatment these charities are essentially condoning the keeping of pets in entirely unsuitable circumstances. At least the puppies leave the puppy farmers at eight weeks old - some of the poor PD pets are stuck with their owners for years!

[/quote]

Having worked in several charity clinics I tend to agree with you. In a way these clinics create far more work for themselves and inadvertently promote the keeping of expensive and unsuitable pets by people who are unable to look after them properly. It has been touched on in another thread, but I get annoyed with the number of caesarians carried out in charity clinics where they are not neutered at the same time, thus promoting the activity because people know they can get free treatment.

It always amazes the number of people on state benefits that purchase pedigree dogs for figures often in excess of £1000. I recently saw a bulldog puppy which a benefit claimant charity client paid £1800 for, and then announced they could not afford vaccination or parasite control as this is not provided by charity. Maybe the clinics should all set up a direct line to the DSS fraud hotline.

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 12:27:25 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Clive PS to above I can't see the logic of expecting you to provide free veterinary care unless you sold it to them in the first place !!!!! The logic (lack of ) of members of the public never ceases to amaze me !!!!!

Wynne

[/quote]

No logic or common sense whatsoever. One sometimes wonders what would happen to these people if there were ever a national disaster or emergency and they needed to think at all.

In this case the puppy should be returned to the seller for money back and refund of incured veterinary costs. The owners have now become angry about being sold a pup (pardon the pun) and are trying to trace the seller, and are going to involve trading standards too.

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Cat Henstridge — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 12:05:39 GMT

I am also in the West Midlands and see a lot of puppy farm puppies. To the point where I now always ask new owners 'Did you go far to get this pup?' waiting to see if they 'picked it up from a nice man in a lay-by/Asda carpark' ect. Most of these dogs will come with a vaccination certificate, identifying the pup only by breed and sex (if that). I have also seen some which are presented simply with a photocopied, handwritten 'pedigree' with a parvo vaccination sticker, no signature or anything, in the corner.

So, who are these vets who are vaccinating and signing for barely identifiable puppies, or, presumably, handing out the vaccines for the farms to give themselves? I appreciate the moral dilemma some must be in about providing care to keep these dogs as healthy as possible but there has to be limits.

Also, Rudolph, I think there is a big differance between inadequate owners who get treatment with the PDSA and the puppy farms. The farms are producing animals for profit and are well aware of their poor standards and the support we provide keeps them going. Not all PDSA clients are dodgy and at least the vets there will try to persuade them of the error of their ways.

The damage done to these pups does not end when they leave the farm, poor breeding standards and socialisation will stay with them for life. The one thing I always advise the clients who buy these dogs is to get them insured!

This is another issue, like the pedigree breeding one, where the profession should stand up and do something to try and stop it.

Cat

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 11:42:03 GMT

Wynne

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 11:39:41 GMT

Straight line M4, Heads of Valleys, short distance north on M5 and you're in South Birmingham

Wynne

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 11:28:44 GMT

I have a case in at the moment. A Labrador puppy bought on a layby for £450 on the A435 south of Birmingham 3 days ago presented yesterday with haemorragic diarrhoea and pyrexia, tested positive for parvovirus, receiving supportive therapy, but unlikely to survive. It was supposed to be 8-9 weeks old, but I would guess it is 5-6 weeks old and in appalling condition; thin and underweight with a pot belly, umbilical hernia and undershot lower jaw.

The new owners responded to an ad giving no address or landline number, just a mobile which is no longer contactable. I will inform the RSPCA and trading standards, but doubt anything will happen as it is not traceable. My feeling is dodgy puupy farms are using Chavs to sell their puppies without being traced.

We, the veterinary profession, are the bad guys in the owners book. They have no money and are unable to pay for any more than basic care, (Although they did find the £450 to buy the puppy!) and expect free of charge care as "they have already paid for the puppy" I wonder if they would buy a car, a stereo or a house without looking at it properly and getting sensible advice first?

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 10:22:16 GMT

Yes Sarah A regular scenario in my practice, is I get presented with a newly-bought, pot-bellied, diarrhoeic puppy, picked up from the service station. The story is invariably "Those people sounded so nice, and said they would meet us half way " Initial contact was a mobile phone number on free-ads

Wynne

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Rudolph — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 09:46:26 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]By providing the puppy farms with veterinary treatment you are as bad as the people who buy the dogs. Auguably worse, as you know what you are condoning. [/quote]

I'm not sure I agree. I think that if the puppy farmers are at least getting the dogs examined and vaccinated then that can only be a good thing. What would happen if they were refused veterinary treatment? I don't see how that would help anyone.

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Cat Henstridge — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 08:58:49 GMT

Sarah,

Yes, we should try and educate people to not buy these dogs but equally your practice is in a unique position to stop the problem at its source, or is it just the money your boss is after?

Cat

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Sarah Wheeler — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 21:20:18 GMT

Yep, someone does their work. And I guess it's the practice I work for, although I'm a LA vet. We all know they are puppy farms, of course we do, but we can't exactly turn them away. The puppies need to be checked over and vaccinated and the bitches have to be looked after too. It may not be to everyone's taste, but as long as people buy puppies in the free ads and pick them up at motorway services, there will be puppy farmers. All we can do is try to ensure their health and welfare. And as notorious as they are, there are a lot of good puppy breeders in this area and a hell of a lot of backyard/family breeders that have absolutely no clue about what they are doing.

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 16:20:30 GMT

Holly, I wasn't implying that all practices in West Wales condoned puppy farming, although I can see (now I've re-read it ) that it could read like that My apologies, but it can't be denied that the region is notorious for puppy farming, and someone must do their work

Wynne

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Stephen Ashman — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:37:15 GMT

I've had a situation a couple of times where the age is not known with much certainty, and the animal hasn't looked like it is quite vaccination age yet, so have delayed

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Charlotte Marshall — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:34:51 GMT

I have never refused to vaccinate due to size as long as the owner was certain of it's age and the animal was healthy. Sometimes I suspect the puppy or kitten is a week or so younger than the new owner was told. I do sometimes suggest waiting for microchips though as I feel mean sticking such a big needle in!

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Holly Lee — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 15:54:23 GMT

That may be but it doesn't happen in my practice which is as far west as you can come so just don't tar everyone with the same brush! By making that statement you imply that every vet in a certain region is guilty of malpractice - which is exactly what you were concerned about when someone mentioned Wales! I don't doubt that in every region there are issues with individuals or certain practices but they are not all the same and no one likes it being suggested that they are!

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Jacquin Mitchell — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 15:49:31 GMT

Sorry, I just wondered if it was the same vet. My friend lives in Wales.

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 15:16:37 GMT

We all know that puppy farming is a problem in West Wales. Some of these bitches need Caesarians, and some-one does them-also veterinary surgeons go on these farms, if only for TB testing !!!!!

Wynne

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Holly Lee — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 15:04:33 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Why ask if in Wales?[/quote]

I think she was just wondering if it was the same vet with both animals...

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Some, further west, turn a blind eye to puppy farming[/quote]

But now I'm unhappy about the implication that vets in west wales aren't bothered about puppy farming!! Please don't generalise!!

Re: Kitten too small to vaccinate?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 10:36:57 GMT

Jaquin Why ask if in Wales?. I am, and I would never refuse to vaccinate a healthy puppy or kitten who is the right age, just because it was small !!!!! I don't know of any other practice that would either Some, further west, turn a blind eye to puppy farming, but not vaccinating because of size is a new one for me

Wynne