Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 11:23:52 GMT

Bulldogs, Belgian Blues As long as it's legal to breed them in the 1st place, we're put in an inviduous position-very difficult to know what is actually best.

Wynne

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 08:30:20 GMT

[quote user="Emma Jarratt"]

I thought the charity clinics had a blanket policy of neutering all caesarians at the same time anyway?

[/quote]

No not really. I sometimes provide locum cover in charity clinics and for a well known provider covering their ooh's. clients/owners/breeders that choose to breed from their dogs are not eligible for charity treatment, but if they just turn up, as they usually do, "emergency" treament cannot be refused.

Owners are strongly encouraged to have their bitches neutered if they need a caesarian, but when the chips are down it cannot be enforced. If they refuse to consent to it then it cannot be carried it out, and that has to be informed consent in that it has to explained to them exactly what we are doing.

I suppose one could make the call and say "get it done elsewhere if you don't agree", but you would have to be 100% sure of management and colleague support, none of us wants to be alone and on the receiving end of a complaint to the RCVS for refusing treatment.

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Emma Jarratt — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 14:37:13 GMT

If you (one) wanted to completely maintain the moral high ground here, as we are discussing this with the breeder before the event when the bitch is not yet in labour, we could say yes, I will perform an elective caesarian on your bitch (or wait for it to go into labour and then caesar), however I will also neuter the bitch at the same time, which is in the best interests of the bitch's welfare, and if you don't wish to consent to this procedure, you are free to seek veterinary services elsewhere.

Bit different when you are faced with a whelping bitch, but when discussing before the event probably feasible.

I thought the charity clinics had a blanket policy of neutering all caesarians at the same time anyway?

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

J G Wray — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 14:49:14 GMT

Dear Peet,

You wrote:

[quote user="Pete Wedderburn"]Is this forum not also restricted to a "non-public" audience, made up of largely vets?[/quote]

is a good example of a none (non-nay) question. It is rhetorical expecting the answer "yes".

You also wrote:

[quote user="Pete Wedderburn"]Have read the thread on the other forum, and I'm not sure why that information can't be shared here -[/quote]

The answer is that the other list has as understanding, an etiquette, which means that it is only with the author's permission that anything written can go elsewhere.

Regs

JGW

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

J G Wray — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 14:44:56 GMT

Dear Mr Guthrie,

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Plus I've just given up smoking, so I'm angry about everything at the moment. [/quote]

The present Mrs Wray (attrib. T Wogan) has just given up. She has been given a piece of paper with likely "side-effects", irritability being one of them. I can send it to your wife if she'd like a little solidarity from me.

Regs

JGW

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 13:05:04 GMT

Haven't we drifted away from the original thread, which was the pressures unscrupulous owners can place on their veterinary surgeons, and just what is right and what is wrong in some cases. Some ethical questions are straightforward-you just don't do it -ever. Others , like the bull-dog Ceasars are a bit greyer-you can't just wave a magic wand and unpregnate a mid-term bitch, so what is best for the patient in front of you ?

Wynne

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 12:49:45 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Plus I've just given up smoking[/quote]

Good for you. Well done. Stick with it!

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 12:46:35 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]Please don't take offence.[/quote]

None taken

I think we could say that a forum for vets is in competition to some degree with a forum for MsRCVS.

In fact, now that we have the 'controversial' forums on VetSurgeon, there is nothing that I would consider bad form or potentially damaging here. Just as long as it's posted in the right place!

Daily Telegraph isn't a blog forum. It's a public blog, which is very different to a veterinary forum.

I probably shouldn't have said anything Jonathan. Don't worry, it's not that big a deal. I'm certainly not going to start publishing a list of websites I don't want talked about. It's just a general matter of netiquette: encouraging members to visit other veterinary forums is bound to make me grind my teeth a little bit. After all, I'm working all god's hours to make this one the best, and I've blown most of the family inheritance on it.

Plus I've just given up smoking, so I'm angry about everything at the moment.

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 11:27:17 GMT

[quote user="Pete Wedderburn"] Is this forum not also restricted to a "non-public" audience, made up of largely vets?

Perhaps you can answer, Arlo?[/quote]

Yes, Pete, it is.

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Pete Wedderburn — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 11:13:42 GMT

JGW

My education in this area must be lacking..... can you explain the difference between a none (non-nay) or num question?

Have read the thread on the other forum, and I'm not sure why that information can't be shared here - it's basically a development of the same idea, which is that it may not be OK for vets to carry out caesarians on breeds like Bulldogs with "no questions asked".

Is this forum not also restricted to a "non-public" audience, made up of largely vets?

Perhaps you can answer, Arlo?

Pete (please don't call me Mr Wedderburn.....)

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

J G Wray — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 10:12:18 GMT

Dear Mr Guthrie,

Please don't take offence. The other forum is limited to MsRCVS and practice managers. It doesn't have your general remit. It's not in competition. It's a place to say some of the things it would be bad form or potentially damaging to say on your forum.

The Daily Telegraph has a blog forum which receives prominence on Vetsurgeon.org, so if you could provide me with a blacklist of references I shall abide by your wishes.

Regs

JGW

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 08:29:29 GMT

[quote user="Jonathan Wray"]If you wish to know exactly what I mean then go to the other forum, of which you are member and join in.[/quote]

Jonathan, it is generally considered bad form to use a forum to promote other forums .

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

J G Wray — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 07:32:41 GMT

Dear Mr Wedderburn,

If you wish to know exactly what I mean then go to the other forum, of which you are member and join in.

There is a simple test of whether someone is taking up the moral high ground by posing a question for instance. Is the question a none ( non-nay) or num question?

regs

JGW

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Pete Wedderburn — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:35:07 GMT

JGW

What exactly do you mean, who are you referring to, and what is the moral high ground that you're talking about?

Pete

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Clive Ansell — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:00:23 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Mike Martin"]To carry out Bulldog Caesarian sections, with no questions asked. [/quote]

I recently got a new client to the practice who brought her bulldog for a 4 week ultrasound PD check. Was positive. I asked about the history of the dog - it was born by C-section, as was the sire. All the sire's litters are born by C-section. It is a relatively small bitch and the sire was described as 'impressive'. This lady has never bred a dog of any breed before. Chances of a natural whelping? Nil.

The client asked whether we would book an elective caesarian. After me making my personal views very clear (including that she shouldn't be breeding the bitch at all considering its conformation and line) I agreed to the elective section on welfare grounds. On the owner's stupid comment that 'well, a caesarian will be safer for her anyway' I went to great pains to describe the higher morbidity and mortality rates with sections over natural whelpings - I probably sounded like a very stroppy vet! We'll have to see if she does come back....

I still feel that it would be cruel to allow the labour to progress with no hope of a successful outcome, and certainly with higher risk to the dam. However, I also feel I am, in some way, aiding this breeder to continue in her cruelty.

I'd love to know what others would have done???

[/quote]

I probably would wait until parturition begins, and if it didn't progress swiftly - as it almost certainly wouldn't - I would carry out a caesarian section at that point.

I recently carried out a locum providing OOH cover which included cover for a busy inner city charity clinic where caesarians are only carried out as a last resort and only as an emergency procedure. There are no elective ones. As a charity they are not there to provide a service to people or breeders' looking to bag a free c-section following an intended mating, that said it is terribly abused - it is amazing the number of SBT's and Buldog's that turn up OOH needing c -sections. One night I carried out 4 caesarians, all on SBT's, and all accidental matings where the sire just happened to be a SBT too??. None consented to neutering at the time of surgery.

As a profession I feel we should be doing more to discourage or prevent irresponsible and unethical breeding of those breeds with endless hereditary defects and of those unable to give birth naturally, such as the Bulldog. We could make our services far more expensive, paricularly out of hours. Also, we could carry out the procedure only on the basis that the bitch is neutered at the same time on welfare grounds to prevent further breeding and further surgeries.

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

J G Wray — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 09:23:26 GMT

Dear Ms Mostyn,

You wrote:

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Am I right in thinking from your reply you feel a caesarian may not be required? [/quote]

No, although "normal" parturition can happen and we also see uterine inertia in second stage after 2-3 pups in Bulldogs, just like other breeds. I was referring to the morbidity/mortality stats.

You also wrote:

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I did not intend to take the moral high ground[/quote]

I wasn't referring to you.

I am constantly baffled by the moral high ground taken up so quickly by the Anglo-Saxons, as if the English point of view on anything frankly, is the only valid point of view.

Regs

JGW

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 09:01:31 GMT

JGW,

I was genuinely asking for other's opinions - but am struggling to know if I understood you correctly. Am I right in thinking from your reply you feel a caesarian may not be required?

I did not intend to take the moral high ground - just looked at the bitch objectively and she had a small pelvis but massive shoulders and was bred to a large sire. We don't see that many bulldogs so I was wondering if others find they still whelp OK. I'll see if I can find that other forum you mentioned - where is it?

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

J G Wray — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 22:41:33 GMT

Dear Ms Mostyn,

If you join another forum, the MRCVS forum, you will find a breakdown of all the caesareans we have done in our practice in the last nine years. You will find stats about Bulldog Caesars and the objective discussion that followed. What you were taught as stats may not be true.

Also, you won't find too many climbing onto the moral high ground, which is a truly heady place.

Regs

JGW

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Pete Wedderburn — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:45:28 GMT

I hadn't heard about the repeat Panorama on vets..... is there something coming up?

My contact - Jemima Harrison - is only concerned about pedigree dogs - I think she maintains a fairly objective view of vets - sometimes I think we can be a little over-protective of our own profession - it's far easier to see a speck in someone else's eye than a plank in our own.... if vets out there are behaving in the way she suggests that bad breeders would like them to, then it *is* pretty outrageous.

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Mike Martin — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:12:23 GMT

[quote user="Pete Wedderburn"]

It's the ironic view of a BBC producer.... a satire of the wishes of a fictitious worst-case "bad breeder"

[/quote]

Pete,

I was hoping this was the case. But also wondered, in view a repeat Panorama harassing vets again, if there were some within the BBC with a vendetta!

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:17:57 GMT

[quote user="Mike Martin"]To carry out Bulldog Caesarian sections, with no questions asked. [/quote]

I'd love to know what others would have done???

Re: Pete's blog: What do dog breeders want from their vets?

Pete Wedderburn — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:27:42 GMT

It's the ironic view of a BBC producer.... a satire of the wishes of a fictitious worst-case "bad breeder" being completely un-politically correct. In fairness, is there not some hint of pressure on some vets sometimes to comply with some of these?