Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Dinu Catilina — Tue, 08 Jul 2025 17:51:12 GMT

[quote userid="16672" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247387#247387"]Well my home town in Scotland (rural mining town) with an income far below the national average (£21k/yr) and a population under 7,000 people has 4 dog grooming "salons" which have remained open for some time (admittedly one is in Pets at Home). Someone must be using them![/quote]

My apologies if I misunderstood but you said places where people spend hundreds a pounds a month. Most of these small grooming saloons will charge 20-30 pounds or less, I know some people running them locally and they're far from making a killing.

[quote userid="16672" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247386#247386"]Other industries, from talking to family members and non-vet friends, seem to either use this model or a task based approach to support flexible working. The latter may be more difficult to implement in our profession - don't want vets saying "ok, I've seen my 20 consults for the day, I'm out of here", but it could work better on surgery days?[/quote][quote userid="16672" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247386#247386"]Our current approach is not compatible with the modern workplace/market.[/quote][quote userid="16672" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247386#247386"]And if we don't adapt to this then the problem with retention will continue indefinitely. We can't go back in time nor magically make the cost of childcare negligible allowing vet parents to work into the evening. Less of a problem 30-40 years ago when many practice owning, majority male vets had a stay at home partner (not to say that was true for everyone, but was certainly more commonplace then), allowing them to pick up any slack. [/quote]

Yes sure all sounds good but flexible working is not about flexibility, it is just not wanting to work certain hours. So the employer has to be flexible but not the employee. The term flexible is inaccurate, the correct one should be convenient. Convenient working for everyone with high pay for everyone.

How about we try a different approach? Don't just accept the ones with the best grades in the profession but those who are willing to work the hours and love the profession as it is. We might not be the smartest around but we don't need flexible hours.

Pet owners have to go to work in the morning and want to be seen in the evening. Vets want to have evenings off for various reasons. What do we do?

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Judith Joyce — Fri, 04 Jul 2025 11:19:14 GMT

[quote userid="16672" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247386#247386"]had a stay at home partner (not to say that was true for everyone, but was certainly more commonplace then)[/quote]

Very few stay at home partners 30-40 years ago, If vets weren't partnered with vets, they were often partnered with other professionals and business folk. Think you are conflating with WWII and post war James Herriott era. RVC intake of 1977 was 1/3 female but just one year later it was about 50:50 30-40 yaars ago was the time of the female jugglers. We dropped balls all over the place trying to have it all, full time career, family and even a social life sometimes. And very involved, contributing in entrepreneurial independent first opinion and referral practices to the diagnostic and treatment advances that corporates are taking credit for now.

But maybe that doesn't help us look forward?

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Martin Hamilton — Thu, 03 Jul 2025 12:32:26 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247377#247377"]Again, not entirely true. Most of our clients do not use these services. [/quote]

Well my home town in Scotland (rural mining town) with an income far below the national average (£21k/yr) and a population under 7,000 people has 4 dog grooming "salons" which have remained open for some time (admittedly one is in Pets at Home). Someone must be using them!

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Martin Hamilton — Thu, 03 Jul 2025 12:21:11 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247377#247377"]Yes but the issue with accepting differences and flexible work and all that is that those that are not different end up paying the price. And of course we should all be supportive and kind and considerate but the truth is that in the end what needs to be done will have to be done and those who can will end up doing more. [/quote]

And if we don't adapt to this then the problem with retention will continue indefinitely. We can't go back in time nor magically make the cost of childcare negligible allowing vet parents to work into the evening. Less of a problem 30-40 years ago when many practice owning, majority male vets had a stay at home partner (not to say that was true for everyone, but was certainly more commonplace then), allowing them to pick up any slack.

Perhaps pay should be higher for those working more "in demand" hours? As a new grad myself and the other recent grad were always left with the 5-7pm consults as most of the more senior vets had childcare duties, or just didn't want to work those hours and made the rota. I would've been much happier working them had I been making 1.25x times my pay for those 2hrs, 5 days a week. Perhaps reducing wages for 9am - 4pm, with a higher rate beyond that for evenings and weekends?

Other industries, from talking to family members and non-vet friends, seem to either use this model or a task based approach to support flexible working. The latter may be more difficult to implement in our profession - don't want vets saying "ok, I've seen my 20 consults for the day, I'm out of here", but it could work better on surgery days?

Our current approach is not compatible with the modern workplace/market. My close vet school friend group (9yrs graduated) started with 9 of us as vets and has already dwindled to 5 remaining in the profession. One left to pursue other interests, another better pay, and two felt they couldn't continue without flexible hours/for family reasons. Perhaps on the bright side two of us are practice owners!

Also re: the notes, I've been using AI software to record the consult (with client consent) which generates notes for me in seconds. Quick review of the notes, save, delete audio, done. Huge time saver. Unsure of availability in the UK/data protection limitations, even if data is only stored locally.

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Clive Ansell — Wed, 02 Jul 2025 09:50:54 GMT

[quote userid="12930" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247375#247375"]Can I decline time-expensive defensive medicine style note recording? I didn't consent to it and do not wish to pay for it. I'd like a third off the charged fees please as I observed that third of time spent in the consult was on activities such as typing pointless notes which I had not consented to pay for.[/quote]

Yeah, sure you can.

But, you would need a signed disclaimer that is thorough and fully understood, in itself adding more time and bureaucracy that would have to be paid for

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Judith Joyce — Tue, 01 Jul 2025 21:58:16 GMT

Abxolutely

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Dinu Catilina — Tue, 01 Jul 2025 15:31:56 GMT

[quote userid="16672" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247376#247376"]See - raw food (costs a lot more than kibble, with raw-advocate sites quoting that raw costs ~4 times that of kibble)[/quote]

Not entirely true. Some raw may cost more than some kibble but it's not more expensive overall. Many feed raw because it is cheaper, they buy butcher left overs, chicken carcasses, tripe, etc.

[quote userid="16672" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247376#247376"]boutique grooming for doodle breeds (can be several hundereds of pounds every month or two), the rise in "doggy day care" or walking services.....and this is also in the North of the England and Scotland (at least if you're in any sort of town) - not wealthy areas.
These are not inexpensive "boutique" choices, and owners seem to happily pay for them. [/quote]

Again, not entirely true. Most of our clients do not use these services.

[quote userid="8338" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247372#247372"]I also feel like we as a society and a profession are (trying to?) become more accepting of our differences.[/quote]

Yes but the issue with accepting differences and flexible work and all that is that those that are not different end up paying the price. And of course we should all be supportive and kind and considerate but the truth is that in the end what needs to be done will have to be done and those who can will end up doing more.

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Martin Hamilton — Tue, 01 Jul 2025 15:06:33 GMT

Just to add, clients are now also paying for many "non-veterinary" boutique services for their pets - which some would view as completely elective. See - raw food (costs a lot more than kibble, with raw-advocate sites quoting that raw costs ~4 times that of kibble), boutique grooming for doodle breeds (can be several hundereds of pounds every month or two), the rise in "doggy day care" or walking services.....and this is also in the North of the England and Scotland (at least if you're in any sort of town) - not wealthy areas.
These are not inexpensive "boutique" choices, and owners seem to happily pay for them. Heck, as far back as 2016 when I first graduated I made some comment about the dog having a nice haircut for the summer. The owner told me it was a bargain at only £100 and he goes every month. The client not 5 minutes later proceeded to be miffed when the dogs annual vaccine appointment, including deworming, flea/tick prevention was about the same price.
The perception of the veterinary industry has eroded - most pet owners think of themselves as "experts" now and think that they, or a breeder who put two dogs in a room together for 10 minutes, know better than the trained professional. And the rise of the LVG's has not helped with establishing trust.

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Beats — Mon, 30 Jun 2025 21:22:27 GMT

[quote userid="13891" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247373#247373"]Can clients afford to pay for a longer consultation? [/quote]

I think this is key.

clients are paying for more things that are generally of low intrinsic value: off label consent forms, recording bcs's and weights, clinical notes not just the bare essential aide memoir for the treating vet but a lengthy treatise written for a third party unlikely ever to read it etc etc.

and all the stuff about informed consent is great, but ultimately if I am spending an extra 50% time with a client then that is costing them 50% more on average most likely. where is the informed consent for the higher cost associated with all the low impact bureaucratic processes? Can I decline time-expensive defensive medicine style note recording? I didn't consent to it and do not wish to pay for it. I'd like a third off the charged fees please as I observed that third of time spent in the consult was on activities such as typing pointless notes which I had not consented to pay for.

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Judith Joyce — Mon, 30 Jun 2025 10:19:22 GMT

I think the reality we are faced with now is that generally, (except perhaps those who use or own traditional type practices) it isn't working for anyone. Most importantly, not enough pets are having access to the veterinary care they need (cost, whatever the underlying cause), clients feeling a failure if they can't afford the costs, vets feeling under siege as you describe. That has got worse no doubt, but a change from clients demonstrating respect and deference to professionals started more than thirty years ago. Perhaps even the LVGs aren't making the profits they forecast?

A few thoughts, some informed by the psychology studies I was moved to do after years of working with vets and clients, to try and understand what was going on. It wasn't perfect 30 years or more ago.

Yes, we need to do something about retention but still think we need to look at selection processes and the vet schools role in general. Having said that, better that 100 vets leave having decided it doesn't work for them, than one vet killing themself in quiet desperation.

Society has changed. Millenials and the Gens (X,Y and Z) do behave differently from Boomers - vets and clients. We have to live with it.

Clients are not better informed. than they used to be, they are just more argumentative, armed with Dr Google and societal attitudes.

Trust in the vet has been shown still to be the biggest influence on clients purchasing decisions. As others have said before we may be overdoing the navel contemplating. Or is there more trust in the traditional positive image of the vet as James Herriot, so those of us who are different get the extra flack? (positive images affecting purchase decisions)

It is good to talk about mental health issues in the profession and I am not belittling anyone who is suffering negative emotions.. I do wonder though, if some findings were affectied by specific mental health terms being used a bit loosely. Anxiety is not the same as being worried or insecure, and depression isn't the same as low mood, even chronically very P'd off.

Running behind is a big problem. 15 minutes is 10 minutes more than we had 30 years ago, rightly or wrongly. If you overrun the next client is rightly more demanding and difficult (they have other things to do too). Can clients afford to pay for a longer consultation?

I think a big difference 30-40 years ago was that we felt more empowered to make our own decisions - we had a Guide to Professional Conduct, not a Code, we worked in small businesses where we could chat with the boss and influence them, and we could do 'informal pro bono' work which might these days be a sackable offence. One of the biggest stress risers is thought to be a problem that you are powerless to resolve ( and we are problem solvers).

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Stephanie Wellings — Mon, 30 Jun 2025 06:28:46 GMT

I wasn’t working 30 years ago so don’t have first hand experience - my frame of reference is my uncle who was a very traditional rural practice-owning vet doing his own OOH, so maybe that’s not a true representation of all the options that were out there!

I work part time and do no OOH. This is very accepted by employers and I had absolutely no issue finding a job, because all the practices here use VetsNow - I can’t imagine that it would have been the same before dedicated OOH services existed.

I also feel like we as a society and a profession are (trying to?) become more accepting of our differences. I’m not discounting the individual’s responsibility to cope but equally I don’t think trashing on today’s graduates, or telling them to be more like their parents’ generation, is going to help them cope. Let’s look at the reality we are faced with now, and work from there. If we can make the workplace work for everyone, rather than just the 50% of people who thrive in a very specific environment, why wouldn’t we?

Some of the attitudes are a bit ‘in my day we did it like this so today’s graduates should too’ and I think that lacks understanding of the wider picture, and some of the ‘solutions’ are just not that realistic - more EMS, when it’s already difficult for them to organise and fund existing placements? Graduates need to be skilled at muzzling dogs - I’m sure as hell not going to ask the vet student to muzzle an aggressive dog and get bitten on my watch. ‘Running behind is a you problem’ - maybe fifteen minutes was enough when owners took the vet’s word as gospel, but when you’ve got demanding clients who want ‘their money’s worth’ from a consult by asking all the possible questions, and you have to discuss with them why it isn’t Cushings even though ChatGTP told them it was, the management for the leishmania in their imported dog that isn’t why they came in but does limit their treatment options, then spend another five minutes justifying why things cost what they do because MailOnline told them vets rip them off…

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Judith Joyce — Wed, 25 Jun 2025 17:05:32 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247304#247304"]more men (any colour, creed, sexuality)[/quote]

Where have they gone?

Treading on thin ice here but the demographic that used to work until they dropped included a lot more males. Females can do it just as well as many have demonstrated but it is hard to ignore the elephant in the room that there are still approximately as many males as females born, but more females end up as vets.

Active positive discrimination by vet schools doesn't seem likely.

Modern A levels suiting good girls better than challenging boys?

Professions losing their attraction for males (? financial, place in society) - other professions having the same issues.

Dominant companion animal practice with its inevitable pet parenting and pony patting putting males off or attracting females more

More fun and financially rewarding alternatives out there that do attract males

I think that looking at what is attracting vets who want to stay in the profession is a better place to start looking at the issue than dealing with the fall out at the other end (although that does need looking at too) as this 'white paper' suggests.

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Judith Joyce — Wed, 25 Jun 2025 16:52:23 GMT

[quote userid="8338" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247306#247306"]if it was still how it was 30 years ago[/quote]

I have a pretty good recollection of how it was 30 (and 40) years ago. I chose to work full time (apart from a brief spell of job sharing to allow more child rearing after maternity leave) but I had colleagues who worked part time and were able to work it around their family commitments. Loads of us used to take time out of practice to volunteer and do committee work, practice standards inspections, further qualifications etc - or take a sabbatical. Does that not count as flexible?

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

David Mills — Tue, 24 Jun 2025 13:03:54 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247328#247328"]So as we amble into an area that we need to discuss, but no-one dares.[/quote]

I'm not sure no-one dares, but there are a lot of assumptions made about more "diversity" = better service or better for the profession.

Of course what you are saying and what Zoetis are, well they're not the same things.

The Zoetis theroy seems to be that increasing diversity will improve the retention of vets and probably improve service as vets who more closely match the clients they are seeing - well what? They understand them better? They talk to them more effectively? I have never seen a convincing argument why increasing diversity in the profession is a Good Thing because at best it is theoretical and at worst absolute fluffy nonsense.

That is different from increasing the diversity of students / vets because some groups are struggling to get a foot in the door. But that's a whole other argument.

The same goes for comprehensive students - I see the argument for looking at why they don't become vets, but to say they become better vets isn't supported by much (if anything). Yes they may be better at talking to farmers and some clients and they may be more resilient (this is a big assumption - based on what?) but whilst communication is important, clients have long been telling us that what they want is affordable vet care in which they have a say, some agency, and are given a multitude of options rather than being told they must do x, y or z (or by implication they don't care enough). It doesn't matter what your demographic, 99% of vets have no say over cost, or options for treatment in house vs referral - such is the structure of the profession (and to an extent always was) that most of us are employees.

Is some areas of life, diversity matters a lot - juries would be a good example (never get tried in a wealthy, white area - the conviction rates in these areas are abnormally high compared to more diverse areas). But the vet profession? I don't see it. On either level mentioned (diversity vs financial demographic).

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Judith Joyce — Sun, 22 Jun 2025 15:31:26 GMT

As one of a couple of state educated retakers, I agree.. The 1977 RVC intake had more state educated (I think about 15) and a significant number of retakers, most of whom put in full careers of full time work.

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 22 Jun 2025 14:53:08 GMT

[quote userid="13891" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247326#247326"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
can imagine that a more diverse veterinary workplace should be better placed to address the needs of a diverse client base, and probably better able to cope with the slings and arrows that get fired by disgruntled clients.

Not sure I agree with that necessarily. If we don't centre on who we are but concentrate on our patients , maybe it doesn't matter about our diversity so much (as long as it goes along with some mindful communication)

[/quote]

So as we amble into an area that we need to discuss, but no-one dares.

35 years ago, try getting into a vet school from a comprehensive? The place where farmers sons and daughters didn't really stand a chance. The odds were stacked against us, because frankly the teaching wasn't geared to overall success (Devonport Dockyard in our case) and the teachers didn't know how to play the system or have the contacts. 3 of us from a school of 2200 puplis somehow managed it, all from farming backgrounds. We weren't ethnically diverse, just fit for the job. We could talk to farmers with ease and could communicate with anyone because frankly we had had to mix and make friends with all walks of life.

Our University year had 3 farmers sons, one privately educated. A couple of others came from State schools whilst all the others were privately educated. This was at the RVC who as I have written before had the incredibly enlightened policy of take on students who had to retake and really fight to get a vet school place. To this day the majority of our year are still in practice, a credit to this policy.

Things are changing thankfully, but as Wynne said on here many years ago, the profession is ignoring many of the eminently suitable, the state school educated child who just needs a chance

Neil

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Judith Joyce — Sun, 22 Jun 2025 10:50:33 GMT

[quote userid="8338" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247306#247306"](straying dangerously into the territory of discrimination; [/quote]

All of this is straying dangerously into the territory of one of the grounds for discrimination but probably a discussion we need to have.

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Judith Joyce — Sat, 21 Jun 2025 17:31:21 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer"] can imagine that a more diverse veterinary workplace should be better placed to address the needs of a diverse client base, and probably better able to cope with the slings and arrows that get fired by disgruntled clients. [/quote]

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Stephanie Wellings — Fri, 13 Jun 2025 10:17:00 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer/247304#247304"]It does not matter what colour, ethnicity, sexuality, religion, social class you are from[/quote]

But your first bullet point on the list of what you would like to see in the profession is more men?

I absolutely agree admission to university should be a meritocracy - although I don’t think academic attainment should be the only attribute worthy of merit, we need to define ‘merit’ as suitability for the job they’ll be doing - and that absolutely includes resilience, willingness to get stuck in, etc etc. I’m not sure you can select uni candidates based on mental health (straying dangerously into the territory of discrimination; plus you could very easily have great mental health at age 18 and poor mental health at 30).

I feel sometimes like I’m a minority but I still think this is the best job in the world - probably less ‘fun’ than it used to be, but I think that’s true about lots of professions in today’s highly regulated, litigious world - it’s still a damn sight better than shuffling numbers about in an office.

A lot of the problems in our profession are actually wider society issues - everyone is squeezed financially, so our clients, and we, feel poorer; most families now don’t involve a stay at home parent, so childcare becomes a huge juggle. The profession has changed to meet the demands of its customers, and now it’s changing to meet the demands of its workforce.

I 100% would not be able to still be in the profession if it was still how it was 30 years ago, so wholeheartedly welcome the fact we are finally embracing some semblance of flexible working - maybe I’m part of the problem! I’m so thankful that I can still do the job I love, for a good wage, and have a family who see me occasionally. I like that the nurses I work with are advancing their skills alongside me, allowing me to spend time scanning a heart rather than clipping nails or telling people what a flea is, and I like that there’s a proper provision for my patients OOH rather than a half asleep vet who is trying to wrap it up and catch a nap before morning consults.

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 12 Jun 2025 23:10:23 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer"]do you think the job is as much fun as it was even twenty years ago[/quote]

Yes. It's the best job in the world. It's not really changed, we fix animals in exchange for money. We can do a bit more than we could 20 years ago, but not that much in the grand scheme of things. We've lost far more affordable and effective drugs than we've gained. A few notable products have landed, teat sealant in cows, Librela, Apoquel.

I think the suggestion of up skilling nurses is the wrong direction. Yes, they are an important part of the team, but if you take away all the easy work you make a consulting block much harder. A few boosters, squeeze some anal glands, take out a few sutures gets you back on time and gives the brain a rest.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31194/do-you-think-zoetis-vet-retention-white-paper-proposals-are-the-answer"]I can imagine that a more diverse veterinary workplace should be better placed to address the needs of a diverse client base, and probably better able to cope with the slings and arrows that get fired by disgruntled clients. [/quote]

No, absolutely not. It does not matter what colour, ethnicity, sexuality, religion, social class you are from. University should be a meritocracy, and you get in based on your work experience and your grades. I'd say it was very likely that the farmer's daughter, brought up with dogs, cats, lambs, calves and a pony has a hell of a lot more to give to the profession than a 2nd generation black kid from a tower block in London. Until you can show me conclusive evidence the disadvantaged kid is so much more useful to the profession, then we should choose people on merit. There should be no exceptions to grades or work experience. It is more perverse to artificially manipulate this based on a colour chart (although if you want a fun activity go to any of the UK vet schools website and see the students chosen for pictures, then go and look at a class.....).

Part-time or flexible working is a lovely concept, but it's pretty crap in real life. It also is really unfair if all the parents get to go home at 3pm for the kids and the young, single vets have to stay late every night to do evening surgery. If people don't want to work regular hours it gets worse. We have a plague of inexperienced, expensive locums looking to have their cake and eat it, despite not being at a stage in their career where locum work is vaguely appropriate. You also can't really complain about the pay and then chose to work fewer than full time hours - that is just naive. Back to the farmers kid getting a place - small dairy farmers often work 80+ hours a week and then get up to calve cows, stay up late mowing grass, fixing problems - a 40 hour week is a walk in the park if that's all you know. I've said before - vets are now earning decent money, working fewer hours than ever (most no on call) and seem more miserable. I came into this knowing it wasn't a 9-5 job - I was told a professional is salaried to do their work and a tradesman is paid per hour.

I think Neil makes some excellent points. I would like to see ALL new grads do a mandatory period of OOH work to pass the VetGDP. You learn so much doing out of hours work - even if you don't do it for your whole career. (I have argued that all practicing vets should do their little share and not put the majority onto a few vets, but that cork too far out of the bottle now). Agree with doing as much as you can in house - how I have always worked. Amazing when we get students how few practices do any orthopaedic work. It's June and I think I've referred 1 dog to an ophthalmologist this year (I don't do much consulting), that's my total for 2025.

What would I like to see?

more men (any colour, creed, sexuality)
mental health screening before admission - select resilient candidates who can handle pressure
increased practical work experience requirements - don't ever send me a final year who can't put a halter on a cow or a muzzle on a dog
minimum of 66% of taught time by non-specialist practitioners
more time seeing practice
more robust exams and poor students failing
A concept of speed being important - a bitch spay is a 30 min or less op. If you have 10/15mins for a consult, you do what you can in that time and move on.
Melt some snowflakes (I don't know how you do this, but it's a huge problem that needs addressing)*

We have a steady stream of vet students. Some are very good, but I'd say we see more poor students than we used to. Final years lacking basic anatomy, physiology, medical knowledge and poor practical skills. The day you graduate you should know more than you ever will again, and be keen to put it into practice. Many seem to lack interpersonal skills and some basic animal handling abilities. Had an Edinburgh final year who had done finals and waiting on results, and I don't think she answered a single question I asked her correctly in the 2 weeks.

* Hard work should be rewarding and satisfying. I don't, personally, understand how anyone can 'burnout' working a 40-hour week with no nights or weekends, yet they claim to. If you are always running behind, it's probably a "you" problem, and you need to get faster. Some systems are bad, but we are personally responsible for our actions and our own development. Sometimes, probably many times, if something goes wrong, it is your fault, and you need to step forwards and learn from it. We are human and we all make mistakes.

RE: Do you think Zoetis vet retention white paper proposals are the answer?

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 11 Jun 2025 22:09:17 GMT

Having locummed in many practices and qualified 35 years ago, any new graduate should seek out a large practice doing their own out of hours for this leads to a sense of community within the practice, a varied caseload and professional satisfaction.

i am presently locumming in a practice that won Pet Plan practice of the year a few years ago and has moved to purpose built premises, it’s fabulous. The clients are as they always have been, looking to keep their pet comfortable with excellent veterinary care that is great value in the present climate.

As prices are fair, you can recommend that dental, fix that leg, take that X-ray because the client will always say yes. This leads to immense job satisfaction something we had, doing open surgeries 35 years ago because this is what the vast majority of clients want.

I know of another practice following this model and both are flying both with clients moving to the practice and vets staying put.

Years ago, big practices ran a ‘branch surgery’ that little lock up with a waiting room, consult and a shelf of drugs. It was OK for a day, but as a career? Yet many vets seem to be working in this kind of environment these days. Small cramped surgeries, vaccinating and selling wormers, referring anything that is a little complicated though often due to a lack of kit in the building.

so get out there, seek out these practices because I see the tide turning, having shunned OOH practices for many years, vets and nurses want variety and interest because you have one chance at your career. I fought hard to be a vet, from a Devon comprehensive, why would I waste that in an airless room, vaccinating dogs and cats all day when I could seek out a better place or put my plate up?

Neil

PS and Edit

I found a way through my career, effectively pushed into locum work and then working for AHVLA over 20 years ago (problems within vet practices haven't changed, they have just evolved to different ones) I've ended up carving a great second 'job' organising several hundred cycling holidays and events that have taken me all over the world. The beauty of this job is that you can do this if you put your mind to it. Fortunately unlike GP's we don't need to be re accredited every 5 years, that would have added to retention issues.