Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Judith Joyce — Fri, 01 Aug 2025 16:03:32 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247556#247556"]hough isn't the more important negative impact on the animal itself?[/quote]

Yes, indubitably, but you were asking for evidence about impact on other people - it's out there in clinical records.. Every case like that , every difficult conversation with a client who is struggling to part with their fur baby despite welfare issues, IMHO feels bad. Cumulatively, that repeated impact can take its toll and can contribute to compassion fatigue and in extreme cases maybe much worse,

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Lesley Strong — Fri, 01 Aug 2025 11:11:19 GMT

Yes get the semi mummified cat presented all the time and people getting upset when you tell them PTS is the only option because " this is their baby and they cant lose her". Not enough attachment to seek care earlier though

I actually had a woman tell me after I visited to PTS her dog that it was more devestating than losing her son as a child!!

We keep small predatory mammals not "fur babies" or dress up dolls

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 01 Aug 2025 10:44:52 GMT

[quote userid="13891" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247552#247552"]If vet professionals count as people[/quote]

certainly not! What on earth made you think that?

[quote userid="13891" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247552#247552"]Delayed euthanasia due to excessive anthropomorphism negatively impacts other people, namely most veterinary practice staff [/quote]

Hadn't thought of that, though isn't the more important negative impact on the animal itself?

Are there any other negative consquences of anthropomorphism? I suppose you could argue that almost all veterinary surgery is driven by anthropomorphism at some level. Are there any procedures which stand out as potentially having an overall negative impact on an animal. I sort of wonder about prosthetics, for example.

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Judith Joyce — Thu, 31 Jul 2025 10:27:52 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247549#247549"]What am I missing. Does anyone see any evidence of owners' overly close relationships with dogs having a widespread negative impact on people around them?[/quote]

If vet professionals count as people and you allow qualitative evidence from n=1. Delayed euthanasia due to excessive anthropomorphism negatively impacts other people, namely most veterinary practice staff . The collapsed cat who weighs 0.9kg was not 'fine the day before' as the owner protests. The emaciated, collapsed, painful end-stage palliative care patient doesn't benefit from spending a last day or two with its family, only to return several weeks later in a worse state.

There are positive impacts too. Shareholders in pharmaceutical companies benefit from the sale of products to help stress related disease in dogs and cats related to their life styles.

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Chris Milligan — Wed, 30 Jul 2025 18:50:02 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247549#247549"]To be honest, I struggle to think of how calling yourself a pet parent and pampering the dog is really going to have much impact on others[/quote]

The impact is in expectations, and emotive-legal consequences. I work in North America - no one signed up to this profession to be sued for $$$ because a 'pet parent' had unrealistic expectations about the roles their vet should play in their expectations of their pets lifestyle, but its definitely happening, especially in the US. Another unfortunate consequence of the cultural changes I described earlier around pet ownership is the entrance of opportunistic lawyers into our world who are now encouraging owners to be much more litigious and raising expectations beyond what we are prepared for as a profession. A notable example recently was a decision to allow pets to be included in divorce settlement custody rulings as if they are children. Where they lead we follow - I don't like the trend.

Also, notwithstanding the chatGPT readout which appears to contradict itself halfway through, I doubt very much there has been any unbiased or meaningful clinical research to answer the question of anthromorphisation. That would be an incredibly difficult thing to investigate in a reliable fashion, and with shifting goalposts as society continues to change before our eyes.

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 30 Jul 2025 13:40:18 GMT

[quote userid="9179" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247545#247545"]as with anything in life, the harm is when their decision to do so starts to impact other people[/quote]

Chris Milligan - yes, but I'm not hearing any evidence of that, are you? To be honest, I struggle to think of how calling yourself a pet parent and pampering the dog is really going to have much impact on others, unless you leave your 15M fortune to the dog, and not your children.

What am I missing. Does anyone see any evidence of owners' overly close relationships with dogs having a widespread negative impact on people around them?

[quote userid="9179" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247545#247545"]also, I think the convincing argument (at least for me) is this; dogs and cats are sentient animals and likely see and interpret the world in ways we do not understand.[/quote]

I asked chat gpt:

is there evidence that anthropomorphising dogs causes them to suffer in any way?

Answer:

There is no definitive experimental evidence that anthropomorphising dogs directly causes suffering, but a growing body of literature suggests that certain forms of anthropomorphism can lead to welfare problems when owners misunderstand or ignore dogs’ species-specific needs.

There is increasing evidence that anthropomorphising dogs—attributing human emotions, motives, or needs to them—can negatively impact their welfare. Research suggests that excessive humanisation may lead owners to misunderstand canine behaviour, suppress natural needs (such as independent exploration), and reinforce emotional dependency. These behaviours are associated with increased risk of separation anxiety and other stress-related disorders. Studies have also shown that anthropomorphic beliefs can contribute to inappropriate diet choices, misapplication of training methods, and a general failure to meet the species-specific needs of dogs (Mariti et al., 2021; Tiira & Lohi, 2015; Bradshaw et al., 2009).

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Chris Milligan — Tue, 29 Jul 2025 18:13:39 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247543#247543"]if people want to treat their dog as a child, where's the harm and who is anyone to say they shouldn't?[/quote]

as with anything in life, the harm is when their decision to do so starts to impact other people

also, I think the convincing argument (at least for me) is this; dogs and cats are sentient animals and likely see and interpret the world in ways we do not understand. We are asking them to do things that in all likelihood don't make sense in their heads and we art interpreting everything they do and their responses to our efforts to domesticate them and integrate them into our lives purely in a human-centric (often visual-centric) sensory environment. Ed Yong has written extensively about other animal's Umwelt and it really applies. The severe increase in "anxiety" (hate the term) among especially young dogs and indoor cats put into society in this way and expected to conform to these new cultural lifestyle changes cannot be a coincidence. We may have to come to terms with the idea that some of the species we keep as pets may not be very good pets for what we want them to do now in society.

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 29 Jul 2025 14:39:15 GMT

[quote userid="9179" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247527#247527"]I cannot deal with people pretending their pet is a child - this is not acceptable and sets both other pet owners and clinic staff up for all kinds of ridiculous judgement and nonsense. [/quote]

Chris Milligan I could not agree with you more, on every level.

But then again, as someone said here, if people want to treat their dog as a child, where's the harm and who is anyone to say they shouldn't?

When put like that, I struggle to come up with a decent argument.

I thought perhaps there might be a case that dogs which have an overly close relationship with their owners are more likely to suffer separation anxiety. But whilst that might seem to be instinctively true, I am not sure there is any proper evidence to support it.

What else? Well I might argue that it seems bonkers to use so much resources which could be better used elsewhere, and that society has got its priorities a bit wrong when people are spending £20K, £30K, £40K or more on a dog, or thousands on a rabbit.

But then, who am I to say?

As I say, I agree with you. I think an overly anthropomorphic relationship with animals sets everyone up for all sorts of problems - mainly people spending more money than they have and having too high expectations of their vet and vet medicine (which just sets everyone up for a fall).

Chris, if you or anyone else has a solid argument why people shouldn't pretend their pet is a child / dress it up / call it their 'fur baby' / call themselves 'pet parents' - I would love to hear it.

I've been thinking about making a film on this subject ...

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Chris Milligan — Fri, 25 Jul 2025 00:02:43 GMT

[quote userid="13891" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247216#247216"]

I think this might more accurately be expressed " the industry is exploiting the 16% of owners who will stop at nothing for their fur baby and engendering guilt, fear and poor self esteem in many of the other 84% and their veterinary professionals"

The very important distinction between the veterinary professional who's paramount aim is animal welfare even when that means tough conversations with owners and the companies who maximise profit is getting blurred.

[/quote]

Hit the nail on the head Judith - this is bang on.

I'm not that old, but I'm not that new in the profession any more. I cannot deal with people pretending their pet is a child - this is not acceptable and sets both other pet owners and clinic staff up for all kinds of ridiculous judgement and nonsense. And, as Judith alludes to, is a result of manipulation by the pet couture and ownership industry that has swept across society in recent years. We simply weren't trained for this, that's the bottom line.

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 14 Jun 2025 12:53:15 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247289#247289"]

When the government regulates the cost of veterinary care

Not altogether a bad idea, setting a price range minimum with a base minimum, and a maximum price 3 times higher. A maximum of £550 for a non emergency c-section here would create waves

The price ranges are higher for emergency care, for which veterinarians must charge between two and four times the base fee. They must also add a €50 charge called the Notdienstgebühr for all emergency care.

[/quote]

Minimum, maximum, must do this, mustn't do that, must, must, must.......

Once again I'm glad I'm not German. (Or Russian. Or Chinese.)

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 14 Jun 2025 01:06:28 GMT

It's 6 - 80% of this is driven by corporatisation of the profession. You promised a video explaining this to the public, and I am still waiting. I've given you examples of costs literally doubling in the space of 12 months after a corporate buy out. You think adding in lots of layers of middle management and having shareholders/venture capitalists wanting their cut isn't going to make vet costs higher?! It's naive.

Clive Ansell I'd charge less than £550 for an in hours caser. Happy having a fixed price structure, we could all work from. I'd welcome that.

I think Emma Creasey is very right on a lot of these issues, and glad to hear another voice pointing these things out.

The whole system is broken - we've generally got expensive and strive for a gold standard, and that's not what owners want. I'd love to revert to a lot of mixed practices (I think good for the vets) doing their own OOH. We are all clever enough to be vets, we were clever enough to learn that we'd earn more than the UK average, but never be rich. If I was in it for the money, I'd have chosen a different career. We've lost so much as a profession, mainly the dedication of becoming a vet rather than it being the job for 4 days a week.......

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Beats — Sun, 08 Jun 2025 08:52:32 GMT

Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall as a student that there was a sign up in a consulting room signed by the RCVS declaring that the fee or minimum fee for a consultation would be x shillings or something like that?

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 07 Jun 2025 12:04:49 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247289#247289"]national leader of Germany's veterinarians between 1934 and 1945.[/quote]

The dates are important - a little historical research reveals that Dr Weber was not only present and active in things veterinary during the Nazi era, he was a friend, confidante and long-time political co-conspirator with Herr Hitler himself. There are probably better role-models out there!!

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Beats — Sat, 07 Jun 2025 08:30:56 GMT

Here is an American journalist's take for English speakers!

news.vin.com/default.aspx

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Clive Ansell — Sat, 07 Jun 2025 08:23:29 GMT

When the government regulates the cost of veterinary care

Not altogether a bad idea, setting a price range minimum with a base minimum, and a maximum price 3 times higher. A maximum of £550 for a non emergency c-section here would create waves

The pricing scale dates back more than 80 years, having been introduced during World War II amid the Nazi regime's policy of "Gleichschaltung," or forced coordination of all elements of society, according to a book about the GOT. Its formation was overseen by Dr. Friedrich Weber, the national leader of Germany's veterinarians between 1934 and 1945.

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 07 Jun 2025 06:47:57 GMT

Beats gosh, how interesting. I see its a fixed schedule of fees for vets to charge, but my German is a bit rusty (or rather, non-existent), so I'm unclear so far whether they are government mandated fixed fees which vets cannot stray from or what they cover.

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Beats — Fri, 06 Jun 2025 21:04:54 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247271#247271"]I’m curious how you would see price caps working in a medical situation. You could cap consultation prices I suppose, but are they the issue? How could you price cap a surgical procedure when there are so many variables?[/quote]

google Gebührenordnung für Tierärzte (or ask a german vet)

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Judith Joyce — Wed, 04 Jun 2025 18:03:36 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247265#247265"]I suppose my point is that corporatisation is perhaps a consequence of societal change, [/quote]

Its a good point

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Judith Joyce — Wed, 04 Jun 2025 18:00:05 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247265#247265"]I am not qualified to assess company financials, though.[/quote]

Nor am I but, same as you, (and I only had a quick look) and agree I didn't see signs of above inflation profit increases recently either. CMA had evidence for fee increases above inflation I think, so maybe turnover has gone up but you'd guess operating costs have gone up too, Doesn't help that there a number of measures of profit.

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Judith Joyce — Wed, 04 Jun 2025 13:59:58 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247271#247271"]I am not saying you are wrong, I’m just questioning whether anyone really knows which of these factors, if any, is the main culprit[/quote]

I did a literature review on the subject for my MBA project - Your proposed causes reflect what seems to be out there. . I struggled to find evidence to back it up, although CMAs initial working papers had found similar in their interviews. No idea of which were the major causes. The trouble is they all happened over a similar timeframe (before the rise of the corporates) so it's hard to tell what's causing what. Scientific advances exploded with the vet schools and the entrepreneurial private referral practices in the 1990s and the veterinary demographic has been changing fast since then too. RCVS manpower surveys show quite a scary change in retention in the profession so think they have all been having an insidious impact over many years and inflation has then bumped into the cost of living crisis, highlighting it more now?

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Clive Ansell — Wed, 04 Jun 2025 11:55:08 GMT

[quote userid="28813" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247268#247268"]I'm amazed you graduated in 1996 and you're happy to just sit back and say "that's just the way it is, nothing can be done" and watch all these clients struggle to afford the increasing prices and having to euthanise their animals.[/quote]

I was referring to our economy and that we are a right wing capitalist economy, which is geared and legislated towards massive corporations making as much money as possible by whatever means. You and I ain't going to change that anytime soon.

I work in some of the poorest areas in the country, and I can't say I see many animals euthanased because of costs alone during standard first opinion daytime practice. True, there will be many that cannot afford investigations or referrals, but in many/most cases there will be cheaper, more basic, pragmatic choices. Preds instead of Apoquel etc.

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Clive Ansell — Wed, 04 Jun 2025 11:40:52 GMT

[quote userid="28813" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247269#247269"]Anyway, locums always complain about lack of job security therefore just get rid of the role and have regular vets. You can still be part time without being a locum. [/quote]

The roles of a part time vet and a locum are very different.

A part timer works a given number of hours, or flexi- hours, as an employee for a practice. they could be working employed part time at different practices. They have the same rights, paid holidays etc, and security as full time employed staff.

A locum is free lance and is usually hired for short term contracts to cover scheduled holidays or unexpected events such as illness. They are paid a daily or hourly rate for their work with no additional benefits or rights.

No sh1t Sherlock.

Corporates seem to be doing the exact opposite, driving their staff away and relying more on locums to cover clinic shifts. Why they don't put more effort into staff retention and recruitment, I cannot understand.

During July 2023 and July 2024, I was working for a corporate owned group where there were fairly ruthless waves of making staff redundant in the name of so called efficiency and productivity. No vets were affected, but within days and weeks of these redundancies (They had disregarded the fact that during the school holidays many of the remaining staff were on prebooked annual leave) they were forced to hire locum RVN's at treble the cost of staff they had just made redundant. As I say, a situation entirely of their own making.

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Davina Anderson — Wed, 04 Jun 2025 10:47:23 GMT

I think no 3 is also a much bigger factor than most people realise unless they actually see the profit and loss accounts of a veterinary business. When I graduated, I did a 5 day week, plus two nights on call (one night 1st, one night 2nd on call), then one Saturday morning in five and two weekends on call per month. So that averages at 166 hour working week if you include my on call hours. We would never expect someone to work those hours now (it came out at about £7.00 per hour) and rightly so. However we still have to somehow provide that provision of 24 hour veterinary care, and this is a very expensive undertaking. If you run a business, ensuring your colleagues do NOT work like we did back then AND ensuring that you have sufficient veterinary cover - or pay to be on an OOH contract with another provider, while you see none of the returns - is a real challenge. And the only way to do it is to hire more vets, pay better, provide more time off, pay for better CPD, pay for better pensions etc. This is not cheap. Salaries and employee payments/NI are the biggest cost of veterinary business by a very long way - even if you are not paying high salaries, you have to remember that alot of vet graduates these days have huge outstanding student loans which they have to pay back, (which my generation did not) and high expectations of how they should be treated (which we did not - although we should have done - my maternity pay only covered me for 16 weeks, thereafter I was on my own. Being treated better and not trying to work the hours we did back in the 80s is a huge leap forward). While there have been huge changes in diagnostic and treatment opportunities, there have also been huge changes in employment conditions and costs of employment remain the highest proportion of outgoing costs.

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Dinu Catilina — Tue, 03 Jun 2025 22:45:54 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247256#247256"]I'm struggling to get my head around how you could cap the price of a surgical procedure, when there are so many variables at play, some unique to the patient. [/quote]

True but some referrals advertise now fixed price TPLOs/ BOAS/fracture repairs regardless of the patient. These are simple things to price, true, but caps can come in different ways. The unintended consequence will be that those who want to make more money will end up cutting more corners and taking more risks.

RE: Good news for the future of the veterinary profession

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 03 Jun 2025 21:00:43 GMT

[quote userid="28813" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247270#247270"]I was referring to your comments about the CMA's actions having a negative impact.[/quote]

Emma Creasey Ah, OK, thanks for clarifying. I think the only comment I made was that from what I have read, price caps may be difficult to implement and may have unintended consequences. I wasn’t saying they will, just that they might.

I’m curious how you would see price caps working in a medical situation. You could cap consultation prices I suppose, but are they the issue? How could you price cap a surgical procedure when there are so many variables?

[quote userid="28813" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31188/good-news-for-the-future-of-the-veterinary-profession/247268#247268"]I only graduated 5 years ago and I'm trying to bring about positive change to return the job to what it should be: treating animals, not making profits.[/quote]

All for positive change admire people like you who seek to make it!

I do wonder, though, whether you’re right that the main driver of increased prices is corporate profiteering, because so far, I have’t seen evidence of that, and what people have told me is the corporate profits are relatively modest.

My theory is that prices have increased way above inflation for a great many factors including

Diagnostic and treatment inflation (ie scientific advances)
Bureaucracy (legislation, elfnsafety, pss, regulation, cpd etc)
Changing demographics of workforce, changing working patterns and changing expectations of employees
Society’s (inc vets’) changing relationship with risk (more risk averse, and risk mitigation costs money)
Fear of disciplinary/trial by social media causing defensive medicine
Corporatisation (to the extent that pricing decision makers are divorced from the front line)

I am not saying you are wrong, I’m just questioning whether anyone really knows which of these factors, if any, is the main culprit.

I have to say, my guess is that 1&4 are the biggest, but I’m only guessing!