What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Judith Joyce — Mon, 16 Dec 2024 09:35:27 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31095/what-do-you-think-about-91-of-vets-reporting-mental-health-issues/246244#246244"]there are more stressors on vets these days (which I don't doubt there are).[/quote]

Are there? I'm not meaning to trivialise anyones problems but are the stressors just different. The profession has changed dramatically in a very short space of time (guess that's a pretty big stressor).

We are dealing with a very different hi tech veterinary environment -positives and negatives there.

Ownership of practices has changed and so changed the role of a lot of vets

RCVS has changed from a Guide to a Code of Conduct (and the rest) so we may have lost some of our freedoms, responsibilities and privileges (maybe more to come) but some may prefer that (others not so much)

The more recent veterinary demographic has a language that didn't apply to vets 30-40 years ago - work/life balance, WTD, TOIL, rest period, mandatory breaks, statutory holidays much longer, protection against bullying, Equality Act 2010, maternity leave, paternity leave.

I'm not saying there aren't more stressors now, just questioning it and the approach to them. Perhaps a vocational approach to the profession helps deal with work day stressors.

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Clive Ansell — Mon, 16 Dec 2024 09:22:09 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31095/what-do-you-think-about-91-of-vets-reporting-mental-health-issues/246233#246233"]However if you ask me 'Has a car passing close to you ever impacted on your mental health?' then as a person trained to think about a question, how can I say no?[/quote]

I would say no to that.

Although it maybe stressful and potentially dangerous at the time, and an initial response could include feelings of anger, annoyance, irritation, frustration or fear; these are normal reactions to a stressful situation and usually lead to improved resistance and resilience, and enable us to cope better in the future when faced with a similar scenario. We may do more to avoid such future sitiations; cycle on a different road, at a different time, improve visibility, etc. It could even improve our overall mental health, because we are better able to avoid it or deal with it if it arises.

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Dave Dickson — Mon, 16 Dec 2024 08:35:43 GMT

As others have said, the sample size is so small that it approaches insignificance.

One of my children (15) recently had an assembly in school. The teacher asked children to close their eyes and then asked them to put up their hand if they had felt any of the following:

Tiredness?

Fatigue?

Worry about upcoming exams?

Social anxiety?

(and a few others I have forgotten).

Then, the teacher asked the kids to open their eyes and look around. You can guess the rest - all of the kids had their hands up.

The lesson? All of those feelings are normal, especially around exam time, so we need to be careful how we label things or treat them as abnormal.

When surveying a profession with an acknowledged problem of disillusionment, burnout and suicide, those who choose to take a survey need to adopt a robust and critical approach to collecting and reporting data. Knowing that 91% of survey respondents report some form of "stress" or "mental health issues" (my label of stress, not theirs, but to my mind the two can be easily confused in this survey) is of absolutely no value to anyone. If we are going to change things in the profession, something I believe can and should be done, then we need to start with actual data collected in a careful and sympathetic way and then analysed to give us something to act upon.

Dave

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Arlo Guthrie — Sun, 15 Dec 2024 17:57:47 GMT

[quote userid="13891" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31095/what-do-you-think-about-91-of-vets-reporting-mental-health-issues/246239#246239"]I get your point Alastair, really I do[/quote]

As do I, actually, even if the way it was put was bound to put me on the defensive!

But I agree with you Judith Joyce, the most serious point in the world will pass entirely unnoticed if the headline is dull.

Here, I do think this story raises an interesting point which I am sure will have entered readers' minds.

Of course it seems extremely unlikely that 91% of vets have mental health problems of a sort or degree that you would describe as clinically diagnosable.

I think the selection IS important. We were talking about this just now at home.

If the study was performed at a mental health clinic for vets and 91% of the patients said the job caused them mental health issues, then it would be a little less surprising (to say the least).

But assuming that this was a panel of vets recruited for a broader purpose, then it IS surprising and of note that 91% said the job caused them mental health issues.

Assuming that 91% of the population of vets does not have clinically diagnosed mental health issues, then logic dictates that they were referring to what you might broadly call negative human emotions.

When Michael asked me whether my job caused me mental health issues, I would say emphatically not, because I would say that any joy, or happiness, or frustration or anxiety or depression (in the sense of being a bit down), are for me just a normal part of life and not something I define as being problematic.

So I think the bigger question here is whether this result was a reflection of how society (and perhaps the profession) is more likely to label something as a mental health issue than in days gone by. And if so, why is that?

Is more because we are encouraged to label things, or is it more because there are more stressors on vets these days (which I don't doubt there are).

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Alastair Welch — Sun, 15 Dec 2024 10:07:57 GMT

Perhaps if you are a sub for The Daily Mail, but not to make a serious point.

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Judith Joyce — Sun, 15 Dec 2024 09:24:12 GMT

I get your point Alastair, really I do, but isn't it the job of a news headline to sensationalise in order to get people to read it. It seems to have worked

[quote userid="12375" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31095/what-do-you-think-about-91-of-vets-reporting-mental-health-issues/246238#246238"]This is an important topic but sensationalising it harms the cause. [/quote]

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Alastair Welch — Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:41:03 GMT

Arlo,

The recent RCVS workforce survey reports 6987 responses and suggests this is a 19% response rate, ie the College suggest there are around 37k VS on the register (more than I had thought). 98 represents around 0.3% of them.

People do extrapolate from smaller surveys (most notably opinion polls pre-election), and they are often wildly inaccurate (for lots of reasons) . A survey such as this will be self-selecting, what else could it be, but if there were big numbers involved it might have some credibility.

Your headline is inaccurate. It might reflect the press release but it is not supported by the data. I was shocked by the headline and I read the article, but I was left wondering how within a profession that is supposed to be science led we could possibly believe such nonsense. Can it really be true that in excess of 90% of the profession have mental ill-health relating to their work? In addition there are bound to be some veterinary surgeons who suffer from mental ill-health unrelated to their work. What this really says is that virtually all VS suffer from mental ill-health. Really?

This is an important topic but sensationalising it harms the cause.

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:38:39 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31095/what-do-you-think-about-91-of-vets-reporting-mental-health-issues/246235#246235"]Arlo Guthrie does running a vet/nurse forum ever affect your mental health?[/quote]

No, I don't believe it does. It has been hugely rewarding at times, and occasionally frustrating, and sometimes got me down. But these are all perfectly healthy human emotions. I am fortunate to have always been in very good health, mentally.

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 14 Dec 2024 22:53:47 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31095/what-do-you-think-about-91-of-vets-reporting-mental-health-issues/246227#246227"]98 may be a small number, but for 89 of them to say the job causes them mental health problems is remarkable, by any measure.[/quote]

Arlo Guthrie does running a vet/nurse forum ever affect your mental health?

I'm going to suggest that virtually everyone's job affects it at some point. Therefore the study is relatively meaningless and this doesn't equal formal diagnosed mental illness.

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 14 Dec 2024 22:45:33 GMT

Alastair,

People always extrapolate from a smaller survey sample to a wider population.

I think you need to make your mind up about whether the selection process matters or not, First you say it does. Now you say it doesn’t!

Personally, I think it does. If those 98 are representative, then one can extrapolate. In the release, it was described as a Zoetis research panel which implied it to be preexisting, and therefore likely to be representative (but I will double check).

Were it self-selecting, I would still be surprised at the high percentage.

I wonder whether it reflects changing ideas as to how people define mental health problems.

I do wish you’d stop calling the headline inaccurate, though, because it is not. It accurately reflects the press release that I received. Headlines always precis the situation. And of course it is a headline’s job to make people want to read the article.

I profoundly disagree that it does nothing to help the cause. Anything which gets people talking helps the cause.

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 14 Dec 2024 22:18:23 GMT

There is also the classic "How was the question asked?'

If you ask me 'Does cycling impact on your mental health?' I would reply no

However if you ask me 'Has a car passing close to you ever impacted on your mental health?' then as a person trained to think about a question, how can I say no?

The conclusion would therefore be that cycling affects my mental health in a negative way

What's the source? Googling 'zoetis mental heath survey vets' it throws up a lot of web pages edited by Arlo, but only one from Zoetis https://www2.zoetis.co.uk/about-zoetis/news-media/knowledge-hub/in-focus-mental-health-in-the-veterinary-industry This relates to Veterinary Students in Belgium.

There is a fear of being seen to go against the grain on this subject, we should resist this and look at these issues in a scientific manner.

Neil

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Alastair Welch — Sat, 14 Dec 2024 21:27:13 GMT

Arlo,

I'm not sure it really matters how the participants were recruited, there were only 98 of them. The (rather narrow) point I was trying to make was that your headline for the article was inaccurate and sensationalist, ala The Daily Mail. Whilst it may be true that 9/10ths of the survey responded as described, stand back and ask yourself whether you really think this is true if the whole profession (as your headline suggests).

I'm not for one minute trying to minimise what is a very serious matter. I am saying that inaccurate reporting of unreliable data does nothing to aid the cause.

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 14 Dec 2024 20:40:33 GMT

Isn't it about time that a survey was done as to 'what makes you like being a vet?' I would bet that 91% of respondents would give a positive answer, there's a headline.

The constant doing down of this profession is turning into a self fullfilling prophecy, where anyone who has a bad day can point at these kind of surveys and say 'see I am not alone'

I went to a talk at London Vet Show a few years ago, where 2 vets talked about how they had coped with depression to the usual admiration and round of applause. Maybe it's time to ask those vets that love the profession to be given a platform and applauded in the same way. There are ways to cope and this relates to personality type and also to your background.

35 years ago, 70 students studied at the RVC, the majority had had to fight their way into University as these students were resits having failed exams. 32 years ago, we had our reunion, the vast majority are still in practice, yes a little cynical and battle hardened, but we're still there. Maybe it's time for a proper survey into the positive personality types to answer some questions.

Neil

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 14 Dec 2024 20:36:20 GMT

[quote userid="4181" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31095/what-do-you-think-about-91-of-vets-reporting-mental-health-issues/246226#246226"]I'm not sure however that it is therefore per se wrong to collect data on people's mental health experiences even if they don't have a medical diagnosis. I have a bad back, yet I don't have a medical diagnosis as such, but would feel happy reporting this in a survey?[/quote]

A bad back is not a good comparisom and is far more simplistic than mental illness. I have a bad back too, for which I have had surgery, and it either hurts or it doesn't, or it prevents you working or it doesn't. Mental illness, and its effects are far more complex I feel, and assessing or measuring that is equally difficult.

I don't know enough about it, but it maybe be possible, with the input of mental health professionals, to construct a survey or questionaire to fairly accurately screen for mental illness? maybe there are certain red flags; alcohol and drug use, sleep patterns, feelings, etc, that could help? .

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 14 Dec 2024 19:24:29 GMT

Alastair Welch - you’re making an assumption about how the participants were recruited.

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Alastair Welch — Sat, 14 Dec 2024 16:59:29 GMT

I don’t think it’s remarkable at all. Such a survey (remember it’s not a scientific endeavour) will disproportionately attract (by a huge margin) those who have something to say about the matter.

If you don’t think the job affects your mental health you’re very likely to just ignore the request to answer the questions and do something more interesting instead.

This is not noteworthy at all.

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 14 Dec 2024 16:50:18 GMT

[quote userid="12375" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31095/what-do-you-think-about-91-of-vets-reporting-mental-health-issues/246225#246225"]You need to sack whoever is responsible for producing your news headlines.[/quote]

Alastair Welch - let's just say that is a very unlikely outcome.

[quote userid="12375" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31095/what-do-you-think-about-91-of-vets-reporting-mental-health-issues/246225#246225"]91% of vets dis not report that their job causes mental health problems. 91% of a very small (98 people out of circa 20k!) self selecting survey reported such a finding. There is an enormous difference.[/quote]

I am aware of the difference, thanks.

[quote userid="12375" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31095/what-do-you-think-about-91-of-vets-reporting-mental-health-issues/246225#246225"]You need to apply a better filter as to what constitutes 'news'. [/quote]

When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you.

I obviously think the story was worth reporting.

98 may be a small number, but for 89 of them to say the job causes them mental health problems is remarkable, by any measure.

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Rob Loxley — Sat, 14 Dec 2024 12:39:44 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31095/what-do-you-think-about-91-of-vets-reporting-mental-health-issues/246219#246219"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
I mean, what exactly is a mental health issue?

One where there is a medical diagnosis.

[/quote]

I agree that this is questionable data due to the tiny sample size.

I'm not sure however that it is therefore per se wrong to collect data on people's mental health experiences even if they don't have a medical diagnosis. I have a bad back, yet I don't have a medical diagnosis as such, but would feel happy reporting this in a survey?

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Alastair Welch — Sat, 14 Dec 2024 12:18:06 GMT

Arlo,

Yes.

You need to sack whoever is responsible for producing your news headlines.

91% of vets dis not report that their job causes mental health problems. 91% of a very small (98 people out of circa 20k!) self selecting survey reported such a finding. There is an enormous difference. That is not to say that mental ill-health is not a problem within the profession, I think most people would acknowledge that is true. But sensationalist reporting of such crappy data is an embarrassment. You need to apply a better filter as to what constitutes 'news'.

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Judith Joyce — Sat, 14 Dec 2024 11:57:47 GMT

Agree with you all, low mood or being in the wrong job don't count and the skewed data. its not a helpful survey 98 respondents. 91% affected but only 57% know someone affected? Isn't there a danger that it detracts from the serious issue of those who contemplate suicide or take their own lives or resort to substance abuse or carry on in quiet desperation? Wonder how many of them would have responded to the survey?

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Robert FalconerTaylor — Sat, 14 Dec 2024 11:44:38 GMT

The current state of affairs quite well articulated here... www.youtube.com/watch

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Richard Carter — Fri, 13 Dec 2024 12:23:00 GMT

So as mentioned above, stressful job unraveling someone’s mental wellbeing or a skewed population due to the selection process, average age, gender, academic achievers and the type of people we are or the current culture of finding an ailment of adhd, autism etc where the bar for diagnosis is now so low, we actually in the normal spectrum of human behaviour or all of the above?

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:26:32 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31095/what-do-you-think-about-91-of-vets-reporting-mental-health-issues/246218#246218"] I mean, what exactly is a mental health issue? Is it the feeling of having had a shit day at work? Pissed off or angered by a client, or management? Are these mental health issues, even?[/quote]

No, these are normal reactions to difficult and stressful situations. If ongoing it could lead to or contribute to mental health issues I suppose.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31095/what-do-you-think-about-91-of-vets-reporting-mental-health-issues/246218#246218"]Or are we talking about something more serious, more long term, more in the direction of a medical diagnosis. [/quote]

Yes, to me at least.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31095/what-do-you-think-about-91-of-vets-reporting-mental-health-issues/246218#246218"] I mean, what exactly is a mental health issue?[/quote]

One where there is a medical diagnosis.

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:08:49 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31095/what-do-you-think-about-91-of-vets-reporting-mental-health-issues/246213#246213"]Without a solid definition of "mental illness"[/quote]

My thought zigactly. I mean, what exactly is a mental health issue? Is it the feeling of having had a shit day at work? Pissed off or angered by a client, or management? Are these mental health issues, even? Or are we talking about something more serious, more long term, more in the direction of a medical diagnosis.

I cannot believe that the number of vets suffering from a medically diagnosed mental illness is anywhere remotely near 91%

Still, isn't it interesting that so many were prepared to tick that box. Does it say something more about the general mindset?

[quote userid="9239" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31095/what-do-you-think-about-91-of-vets-reporting-mental-health-issues/246217#246217"]And it's not helping anyone suggesting that the profession is worse than it actually is. [/quote]

Yeah - I also wonder to what degree it all becomes a bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

RE: What do you think about 91% of vets reporting mental health issues?

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 13 Dec 2024 10:03:15 GMT

Bad science is worse than no science in my humble opinion. And it's not helping anyone suggesting that the profession is worse than it actually is.