Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

RE: Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

Alasdair Hotston Moore — Sat, 23 Nov 2024 09:10:04 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246033#246033"]Also surprised that the other MRCVS who was instructed to remove the chip, wasn't brought to book too[/quote]

It was an RVN I believe who voluntarily left the register so no action

RE: Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 22 Nov 2024 19:35:05 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246093#246093"]We are left with a lady whose private opinion is that it's OK to steal animals if they are being maltreated.[/quote]

So, if she has not seen the error of her ways, she may well go and do it again.

Presumably if she does, and is caught (And doesn't get shot or caught in a (wo)man trap), the legal punishment and DC sanction may be more severe one would hope.

RE: Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 22 Nov 2024 15:36:44 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246058#246058"]

Evelyn Barbour-Hill said:
Disciplinary sanctions are not intended to be punitive (although, of course, in effect they often are) and never have been.

I'm not so sure

[/quote]

Dinu, you are wrong for once. Disciplinary sanctions are not intended to be punitive, and never have been, as anyone at RCVS HQ can tell you. Of course in effect they often do act punitively (loss of livelihood I would call a punishment, wouldn't you?

I don't know anything about the cases you cite, but the gent who shoplifted... etc. was dealt with for not disclosing as is required, not for the shoplifting.

[quote userid="9239" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246058#246058"]Steal some animals - that's fine.[/quote]

No 'tain't, of course, but the lady was punished, under the law, for that. The DC had to decide whether this rendered her unfit to practise. Even in the brief report, the Chairman said it was a difficult decision, but he did outline the reasoning.

We are left with a lady whose private opinion is that it's OK to steal animals if they are being maltreated. For all we know there are quite a few nurses, possibly veterinary surgeons too, with similar opinions. You can't punish people for their opinions. (And if you are wondering, I do not hold such opinions.)

[quote userid="9239" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246058#246058"]what we should do is call the RSPCA[/quote]

Yes, they are much more efficient at stealing animals.

RE: Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

Dinu Catilina — Tue, 19 Nov 2024 22:21:24 GMT

I'm not so sure

The gentleman who shoplifted in New York and did not disclose it to the RCVS - punished. I guess he wasn't an ethical clothes saviour.

The lady involved in a car crash while eating a sandwich - punished.

Steal some animals - that's fine. If animals are suffering what we should do is call the RSPCA and involve the police.

RE: Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 19 Nov 2024 15:38:01 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246051#246051"]This lady has undertaken not to repeat such offences, but still maintains that theft of animals that are in her judgment mistreated is not wrong. Suspend her as long as you like, her opinion will not change. [/quote]

I'm not sure about that.

She made the choice to engage in criminal activity.

Maybe a suspension would give her time to reflect on her behaviour and opinions. If she were then still of the opinion that the criminal acts of breaking in to someone's property to steal is acceptable, then she could be removed from the register permanently.

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246051#246051"](Much better to go to the RSPCA – a self-appointed bunch but much bigger and long-established, with officers in dark blue uniforms and badges – if you think some animals should be stolen) [/quote]

Or contact the RSPCA for advice, and they could involve the police if it were deemed necessary to enter the premises if the owners declined.

RE: Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 19 Nov 2024 15:13:47 GMT

[quote userid="11308" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246041#246041"]At least a suspension for a period of time at the very least is appropriate.[/quote]

I've never quite understood the point of suspensions in cases like this. Sure, in some cases, the point is to give the offender a time to think about what they did or didn't do, to do some appropriate CPD, anger management courses, whatever. So at the end of their suspension they are worthy of the public's trust again.

This lady has undertaken not to repeat such offences, but still maintains that theft of animals that are in her judgment mistreated is not wrong. Suspend her as long as you like, her opinion will not change. So the choice for the DC is between striking off and reprimand, and (remember we haven't got the whole transcript) they went for reprimand.

Reprimand is not to be sneezed at. It remains on the person's record at RCVS for the rest of their life. And is not kept secret.

[quote userid="11308" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246041#246041"]If I was a client at a practice and I found out there was a nurse there that had stolen animals from where they were kept because of her feelings about it, I wouldn't be comfortable having my address and details being available to her. [/quote]

Quite. So she has already perhaps blighted her employment prospects.

Moreover, there may be nurses at any practice that share her opinions but haven't actually done anything.

Make no mistake, I have no sympathy whatsoever with self-appointed bunches of vigilantes pursuing "animal rights".

(Much better to go to the RSPCA – a self-appointed bunch but much bigger and long-established, with officers in dark blue uniforms and badges – if you think some animals should be stolen)

RE: Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 18 Nov 2024 12:57:20 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246038#246038"]

Evelyn Barbour-Hill said:
The lady in question has received her punishment from the judicial system.

Yes, fair point. The question I should have asked is whether the sanction was sufficient to maintain public trust in the profession.

[/quote]

I thought the whole point of RCVS DC outcomes about public trust?

If I was a client at a practice and I found out there was a nurse there that had stolen animals from where they were kept because of her feelings about it, I wouldn't be comfortable having my address and details being available to her.

At least a suspension for a period of time at the very least is appropriate.

RE: Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 18 Nov 2024 09:35:21 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246035#246035"]Disciplinary sanctions are not intended to be punitive [/quote]

Yes, of course, but I guess the question is whether they should be.

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246035#246035"]Disciplinary sanctions are not intended to be punitive [/quote][quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246035#246035"]The lady in question has received her punishment from the judicial system.[/quote]

Yes, fair point. The question I should have asked is whether the sanction was sufficient to maintain public trust in the profession.

RE: Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 16 Nov 2024 15:48:57 GMT

You are all drifting away from the point – the original question, the title of this thread.

Disciplinary sanctions are not intended to be punitive (although, of course, in effect they often are) and never have been.

The lady in question has received her punishment from the judicial system. Possibly she got off a little lightly, possibly not – we don't know the full facts, and doubtless the judge explained clearly his decisions.

It is not the business of the DC to add another punishment. Personally I feel she got off a little lightly, but the chairman, even in the brief report, did outline the reasoning behind their decision. As ever, we don't know the full facts without reading the full transcript.

RE: Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 16 Nov 2024 11:19:07 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246031#246031"]

The nurse in question contacted me to point out that she didn't enter people's houses. Although the offence was described as 'targeting people in their own homes' in the RCVS press release, I changed it to 'property'.

I still think that is an appalling thing to do - it would be terrifying having balaclava-clad criminals running around your garden after

[/quote]

No defence whatsoever, it is still wrong to knowingly enter someone else's property with the intention of doing wrong.

Where my brother lives in the US, where it is legal to own a gun and to use it against an intruder if you genuinely feel at risk, she could well have been shot.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246031#246031"]I wonder if the lack of punishment just reflects the way society is moving, and the bar for punishment is being raised everywhere.[/quote]

Yes, I think so.

There has been a dramatic rise in house robberies, car thefts, and drug crime where I live, including some where folk are robbed while they are at home asleep.

Police do pretty much nothing, other than issue a crime number for insurance purposes. They very rarely attend the scene, and are not usually interested in viewing CCTV footage.

As you say;

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246031#246031"]I'm not convinced that removing consequences for 'bad' behaviour is an altogether good thing.[/quote]

RE: Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 16 Nov 2024 11:03:57 GMT

[quote userid="8663" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive/246030#246030"]There has been another outcome recently that surprised me. Cat taken bydeceipt from an owner by a vet. Microchip removed at the vet’s direction by a colleague. Vet disciplined but no punishment. I found that very hard to understand[/quote]

I can't my head around this one completely. At first, I had some empathy and thought someone having a bad day and too many PTS' etc, but going to the trouble to remove a microchip has to be an intended, deliberate act of deceit, and I can't see any reasonable innocent explanation.

Also surprised that the other MRCVS who was instructed to remove the chip, wasn't brought to book too? If I were asked to remove a chip, I would ask why, and if not satisfied with the explantion would decline the procedure.

RE: Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

David Mills — Sat, 16 Nov 2024 10:56:10 GMT

It's a strange one, and I haven't read the full transcript (and I still have 400 pages of Boris' autobiography to go so I probably never will) but I suspect the devil is in the detail and had she got a custodial from the court it may have been different at DC. I'm not sure whether it's humorous or depressing that her defence was, in part, that she was being discriminated against because she was an ethical vegan.

There are some, er, interesting judgements (on the face of them) coming out recently but there does seem to be a theme emerging as to whether the accused pose an ongoing danger to animals and the public trust in the profession seems to be second fiddle. I wonder whether this is a deliberate step change. It is hard to make a case of maintaining public trust with the one who stole a cat then went to great lengths to deceive (in my head I hope that the cat turned up at the owner's house one night demanding its dinner). On the flip side, incorrect certification will almost certainly land you with a punishment.

RE: Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 16 Nov 2024 09:28:45 GMT

I still think that is an appalling thing to do - it would be terrifying having balaclava-clad criminals running around your garden after dark.

I wonder if the lack of punishment just reflects the way society is moving, and the bar for punishment is being raised everywhere. Without thinking it is necessarily a good idea to go back to hanging, I'm not convinced that removing consequences for 'bad' behaviour is an altogether good thing.

Also, this story raises another interesting facet of modern life, that of being cancelled.

Ever since these sites have existed, I have reported the results of RCVS DC hearings (because I think it is important that the regulated know why their peers are disciplined and how, because there have been a couple of notable miscarriages of justice).

Our news is fed out to other social media platforms automatically.

A few weeks ago, I noticed that a post about a vet's hearing was pulled down by Facebook as 'spam'. I thought 'that's weird, because its not spam', its a news report. Then it happened again, on anther DC hearing report. But not on VetNurse until yesterday, when the moment I changed the headline on this story, it got pulled by Facebook as spam.

I am pretty sure that what is happening here is that people are marking any disciplinary stories as spam and the algorithm is pulling them.

So in effect, people are voting on the news and if they don't like it, Facebook pulls it. AKA 'cancels' it.

I think that's a very dodgy way of filtering news. You can have news, but only if its nice news.

RE: Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

Alasdair Hotston Moore — Sat, 16 Nov 2024 00:01:16 GMT

There has been another outcome recently that surprised me. Cat taken bydeceipt from an owner by a vet. Microchip removed at the vet’s direction by a colleague. Vet disciplined but no punishment. I found that very hard to understand

RE: Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 15 Nov 2024 20:09:56 GMT

Another that surprised me recently was this one.

London-based vet issued a reprimand and warning after issuing a veterinary prescription intended for human use - Professionals

She prescribed the drug Roaccutane (generic name isotretinoin) for an animal, but it was in fact intended for human use.

This is not any old drug either; It can only be prescribed in severe cases and under close control. There are many potentially harmful side effects, and close and regular monitoring, including regular blood tests, assessment of mental health and pregnancy testing prior to prescription, are required. It cannot be prescibed by a GP or any doctor, only by a consultant dermatologist.

Isotretinoin | Drugs | BNF | NICE

To me it was a fraudulent and reckless act, that could potentially have had very severe consequences.

RE: Should disciplinary sanctions be punitive?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 15 Nov 2024 15:38:00 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive"]I'm sorry, but I think its an absolute disgrace that this nurse was not suspended for a period of time, particularly because:[/quote]

I'm inclined to agree, but what happens at an RCVS DC hearing has more to do with wind speed and direction on the day that anything else, I get the feeling.

Also, the sentence imposed by the court seemed unduly lenient too?

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31085/should-disciplinary-sanctions-be-punitive"]

"she also believed that her intention to protect the animals’ welfare was a justification."

No - it is not. Animal welfare is never a justification for raiding people's homes.

[/quote]

Agree, she should have contacted the RSPCA for advice, or the police.