Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Clive Ansell — Mon, 16 Sep 2024 20:46:38 GMT

I think charging in advance is a good idea, or at least taking credit card details and an agreement to pay if they fail to show, as one would for a hotel room or hire car.

We have a run the last few months of clients, including many newly registered clients, who do not turn up. We are short of staff and don't have enough appointments, so for each no show someone else has been turned away, in many cases patients that really need to be seen, or sent elsewhere, or fobbed off to the OOH provider. Not to mention the lost revenue too.

At my dentist there is a signed patient-practice agreement, in their T&C's they charge £4 per minute for missed appointments. routine check up of 15 minutes, £60.

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 16 Sep 2024 16:26:57 GMT

[quote userid="11308" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245477#245477"]To book an appointment at many Vets4Pets you now have to pay the consult fee up front. [/quote]

Really? Most want a deposit, but I'm not aware of any that want the full price paid.

Having said that, I have to pay for the consultation at the dentist before seeing the dentist.

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 16 Sep 2024 12:52:11 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245349#245349"] If 60% of the profession is owned by corporates then they don't care about a reasonable income, and being part of a community. They don't care that they are helping the animals of multiple generations of the same family. Their clients aren't their friends. They want to maximise their income for their investors and shareholders.[/quote]

At the national level, yes. At the local level within practices, no. That's where Clinical Director's or whatever they're called elsewhere need to fight for going upwards for their clients.

IVC shot themselves in the foot this summer with their announcement of redundancies. Everyone in clinics told them what was going to happen, and it is happening. It is short term reactions to things rather than long term planning. It's bloody annoying, but then I wouldn't get paid as well as I do anywhere else so I'll keep plugging along and look after my staff and my clients.

To book an appointment at many Vets4Pets you now have to pay the consult fee up front.

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

David Mills — Tue, 20 Aug 2024 22:41:25 GMT

They used to, to an extent by paying bonuses or a % of any money "earned" over a certain. amount but I believe this has changed to a higher salary model now - salaries taking up about 60% of cost in most business models. (Some believe this is a strategy to ringfence vets so no one else can have them even when consults / ops / etc are rarely fully booked)

[quote userid="3585" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245350#245350"]newer grads appear to be terrified by the use of steroids in any situation, including the one you have described. Is this fear due to the current vet education system or lack of experienced mentors? Probably a combination of both.[/quote]

God knows. I've worked with new grads who were proud they'd never use steroids in their career. Bizarre. Some from the uni in my neck of the woods that use them on almost every medical case we refer, and never seem to use Apoquel! So I don't know where it is coming from. But it is a simple yet depressing example of the lack of choice that clients are being given. I've seen cats scratching themselves silly who would love a depo injection being offered it only after bloods first. The mind truly boggles.

As Michael Woodhouse says I am increasingly of the opinion the profession is rapidly heading towards being f*kd beyond repair.

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 20 Aug 2024 21:48:27 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245354#245354"]Corporates, by their very nature, become less thinking and more process driven (which is not a criticism, just the way it is), so even if corporates did 'think', I don't think they would care anyway. They are more interested in the process/numbers. Again, not a criticism, just the way it is.[/quote]

No, but they monitor production/turnover/money in great detail. A vet suddenly offering a cheaper service to a significant number of clients is going to be picked up and they are going to have a meeting etc. Unsure if the corporates pay on turnover, but likely to affect pay reviews etc.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245354#245354"]Vets won't like it? Michael Woodhouse - which vets? All vets? (or the majority, or corporate vets?). What won't they like? My suggestion that rather than deploying more diagnostic tests and referring for the most complicated, high tech treatments, the art of veterinary medicine should be about finding the (usually cheapest) solution which matches the size of the client's wallet? It's an art which, as more and more expensive diagnostics and treatments come to the marketplace, is surely going to become more and more important (because we must be reaching the limits of what insurance can offer).[/quote]

The vets would end up being paid less or having to work a hell of a lot harder and manage more consults in the day to achieve the same turnover. Various figures suggested but a vet should expect to take home 20-25% of their fee turnover. I can feel 20 lumps and charge you a £50 consult fee, I can feel 4 lumps, do some biopsies and tests and charge you £250, or I can remove your lump, send it away and charge you £1000. The latter is by far the easiest way of turning over £1000. Leaves almost no uncertainty and no complaints that you were wrong and 19 were lipomas but 1 was something nasty.

(lipoma = common benign fatty lump)

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

cairncross — Tue, 20 Aug 2024 15:41:37 GMT

no questions , we are going to turn each consult into the equivalent of a house conveyance soon we will actually be cutting and pasting a similar number of words to war and peace. We are supposed via CMA to be facilitating free choice and movement of clients but now the amount of records that can move with a pet can be similar to a house conveyance . we would need to charge hundreds if we are to read it properly an once something is documented too us we dam well better have read it.

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 20 Aug 2024 07:48:31 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245337#245337"]

Two answers to that.

1. You weren't asked the question in so many words, or given a questionnaire to fill in during your interminable wait. That doesn't mean a good veterinary surgeon didn't elicit the information, in form and extent suited to the situation.

2. The veterinary surgeon wasn't quite as good as he or she might have been.

[/quote]

Evelyn Barbour-Hill - well, whilst I can't know for sure what was going through their head, I do not ever remember my approach to money being discussed directly (which I think it needs to be), and I did have to negotiate south on a couple of occasions, which would suggest they had not correctly assessed me as: "wanting the problem solved at the lowest cost". I was otherwise very happy with the advice I was given. I just suspect that what clients can afford or are happy to pay may not be discussed as often or as clearly as it could be.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245349#245349"]Vets have never being paid so much, had so much time off, so much information at their fingertips, yet seem more unhappy than ever. We're doomed, BUT hats off to you for trying to affect some change. The corporates and the vets won't like it though, so you are speaking to a pretty empty room.[/quote]

Thanks for clarifying.

Corporates, by their very nature, become less thinking and more process driven (which is not a criticism, just the way it is), so even if corporates did 'think', I don't think they would care anyway. They are more interested in the process/numbers. Again, not a criticism, just the way it is.

So I don't think they would mind either way what I say. The only thing that will affect their decision making is the market. My (not terribly well-informed) belief is that they have spent too much on equipment and referral centres, and not enough on the basics, and that is starting to bite.

Vets won't like it? Michael Woodhouse - which vets? All vets? (or the majority, or corporate vets?). What won't they like? My suggestion that rather than deploying more diagnostic tests and referring for the most complicated, high tech treatments, the art of veterinary medicine should be about finding the (usually cheapest) solution which matches the size of the client's wallet? It's an art which, as more and more expensive diagnostics and treatments come to the marketplace, is surely going to become more and more important (because we must be reaching the limits of what insurance can offer).

[quote userid="19228" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245352#245352"]for a vet to professionally review the survey is going to take 10/15/20 min ? who pays for that expense do we need to survey the clients to see how detailed a survey they are willing to pay for ? [/quote]

cairncross Yeah, the questionnaire looked long to me too, but I wasn't thinking of the cost in your time to read it. I suppose the thinking must be that they are questions you might ask orally normally, just that doing it in the written word focuses the mind and keeps a record for later.

The danger is that given half a chance and enough time in the waiting room, I suspect quite a few owners would write War and Peace (in terrible handwriting) for you to plough through.

Maybe the concept is a good one, but there need to be fewer, quicker, perhaps multi-choice questions????

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

cairncross — Tue, 20 Aug 2024 07:27:45 GMT

for a vet to professionally review the survey is going to take 10/15/20 min ? who pays for that expense do we need to survey the clients to see how detailed a survey they are willing to pay for ? if i do 20 of these per day and take 10 min to review record and clarify that's 200 min over 3 hours per day where are the extra vets coming from ? we usually have 3 vets consulting so that's one extra vet needed in the rota to pay for that we are going to need to charge 10 to 15 pounds per consult/form that's nearly a 50 percent increase .

someone this am stated they wanted what was best for their cat when leaving it in , we are going to examine the mouth under anaesthetic I explained it might be better to make appointment with a practise with dental xray facilities we only have standard xray or even somewhere with more complex imaging , which could all be done under one anaesthetic rather than us sedating and deciding it needed further work up , i gave estimate of costs and that was ruled out They then questioned the section of our form which discusses that out of hours teh inpatients are not monitored full time they did not want to consent to leaving the cat in case it ended up staying overnight under these conditions and i explained options as to where fully staffed night time care might be available and likely hood of costs they then stated they weren't sure if they would consent an di informed them they shouldn't unless they were happy , a sizeable queue had developed for admissions and teh third man back had interjected as he was now going to be late for work so i gave him a form and he hurried to fill it in without reading any of what it said did i actually get informed consent from him ? My original form filler then returned with the decision that they may decide to have the cat PTS instead and enquired about the cost of home visit for this and cremation services which amounts to a sizable fee which they then were very willing to afford ?

How much do people read forms ? when they then do the number of tangents that require clarifying are almost infinate , the decisons of individual clients can change in seconds according to whim and emotive thinking . however if we are challenged the documentation is almost always absolute evidence.

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Glen McIntosh — Tue, 20 Aug 2024 02:46:05 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245347#245347"]I do wonder with the exit of experienced vets that options are being limited not nefariously but through lack of any real clinical experience.[/quote]

For sure.

But also I think, due to fear. For example, many newer grads appear to be terrified by the use of steroids in any situation, including the one you have described. Is this fear due to the current vet education system or lack of experienced mentors? Probably a combination of both. Although guidance for new grads from experienced vets has always been required to some extent from time immemorial to correct some of the dogma taught at vet schools.

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 19 Aug 2024 22:24:30 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245336#245336"]Gosh, that's not an adjective I am accustomed to! Perhaps you are being ironic! I'm not altogether sure what you mean. Are you saying that if you establish the client's approach to veterinary care before advising, they might set the bar financially lower, which would be problematic? [/quote]

No, I genuinely believe what you are trying to achieve is a good thing. It's how I practice veterinary medicine, BUT I could be a much richer man if I changed how I did a few things. If 60% of the profession is owned by corporates then they don't care about a reasonable income, and being part of a community. They don't care that they are helping the animals of multiple generations of the same family. Their clients aren't their friends. They want to maximise their income for their investors and shareholders. Remember what Anthony Dennison said, in relative innocence, not that long ago about fixing car parks and new equipment......

The vets want to earn more money and won't sign up for a structure where they earn less, despite them knowing what they were likely to earn before they started (or they should, as clever people). The exponential growth of referral centres want the status quo to continue. Everything has changed too much. No OOH. 4 day weeks. It's a job, not a vocation. People simply don't care any more - they do their job and bugger off at 6pm on a Thursday for their 3 day weekend without a care in the world. The profession has lost too many skills in general practice.

Vets have never being paid so much, had so much time off, so much information at their fingertips, yet seem more unhappy than ever. We're doomed, BUT hats off to you for trying to affect some change. The corporates and the vets won't like it though, so you are speaking to a pretty empty room.

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

David Mills — Mon, 19 Aug 2024 21:47:34 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245337#245337"]

Two answers to that.

2. The veterinary surgeon wasn't quite as good as he or she might have been.

[/quote]

Quite.

But re 2) I think a lot comes down to experience and especially consulting experience.

Being northern (Lancs, not Yorks), I'm quite happy discussing finances (imagine a consult with Michael Woodhouse ) and it is one of the first things I do before any treatment. I rarely if ever ask about insurance. But I feel that I don't over-test or over-treat regardless of financial circumstances.

e.g. itchy dogs this tome of year - we have steroids (cheap, very effective, side effects), apoquel (more expensive, probably equal efficacy to roids, fewer side effects), cytopoint (less effective, more expensive but simple application). Chat through them, outline price, go with what the client wants.

I do wonder with the exit of experienced vets that options are being limited not nefariously but through lack of any real clinical experience.

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Cinzia Gandini — Mon, 19 Aug 2024 21:41:13 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245332#245332"]So what is 'interesting'?[/quote]

I was not referring to the wages, but considering 'what clients are happy to spend". So I found interesting to finally read on a newspaper that

"Almost 60% of UK vet surgeries are now owned by six large companies, which have bought up hundreds of independent practices while often retaining their original names, leaving the public in the dark about the new corporate makeup of the sector."

"more and more people putting their pets to sleep because they could not afford to pay the fees"

"owners may be overpaying for medicines"

well known things but now making the headlines, I think it's interesting isn't it?

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 19 Aug 2024 19:12:42 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245336#245336"]

Evelyn Barbour-Hill said:
Arlo Guthrie said:
Just ask in such a way as to get a better feel for the client's broad approach to what they feel comfortable spending on treatment for their dog. Are they someone who really wants to find the cheapest solution to the problem (ie minimal diagnostics, no bells and whistles), or are they someone who, probably with the comfort of insurance, wants to throw the kitchen sink at it. Or do they sit somewhere in the middle.

But that's something you establish during the consultation, if you are consulting properly.

In my 13 years or so of dog ownership, I was never once asked this question.

[/quote]

Two answers to that.

2. The veterinary surgeon wasn't quite as good as he or she might have been.

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 19 Aug 2024 08:46:51 GMT

[quote userid="4181" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245314#245314"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
Just ask in such a way as to get a better feel for the client's broad approach to what they feel comfortable spending on treatment for their dog. Are they someone who really wants to find the cheapest solution to the problem (ie minimal diagnostics, no bells and whistles), or are they someone who, probably with the comfort of insurance, wants to throw the kitchen sink at it. Or do they sit somewhere in the middle.

Is that not what building long term owner-vet relationships and continuity of care is about, rather than a culture where people shop around and are under the care of multiple vets for vaccines / preventative care /illnesses.

[/quote]

Rob Loxley - For sure, but I wonder what percentage of clients that you see in a typical day are ones where you have that long term relationship where you know the client well enough to have an understanding of their approach to treatment, and their finances.

Genuine question.

Surely you must see many which only visit very occasionally, or who haven't visited since the initial vaccinations (or for more than a year or two, at least), or who shop about because that is the way of the world these days ...

[quote userid="4181" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245314#245314"]I think also labelling clients (as all this data will end up on their records) may then end up with them being given fewer options and people's circumstances and views change. e.g. my young agility dog I'm happy to spend the ££ on referral for cruciate surgery, the old creaky cat maybe I just want some palliatve care; my ability to pay may change when a partner is made redundant[/quote]

Fair point, although if the answer to the question is dated, then surely it is just a question of deciding when it automatically becomes outdated, requiring the client to be invited to update it. My financial adviser does that annually.

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245315#245315"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
Just ask in such a way as to get a better feel for the client's broad approach to what they feel comfortable spending on treatment for their dog. Are they someone who really wants to find the cheapest solution to the problem (ie minimal diagnostics, no bells and whistles), or are they someone who, probably with the comfort of insurance, wants to throw the kitchen sink at it. Or do they sit somewhere in the middle.

But that's something you establish during the consultation, if you are consulting properly.

[/quote]

In my 13 years or so of dog ownership, I was never once asked this question.

Gosh, that's not an adjective I am accustomed to! Perhaps you are being ironic! I'm not altogether sure what you mean. Are you saying that if you establish the client's approach to veterinary care before advising, they might set the bar financially lower, which would be problematic?

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 18 Aug 2024 23:55:31 GMT

[quote userid="4103" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245319#245319"]I've found the following very interesting[/quote]

Interesting, in what way? I think that animal care assistants (basically unskilled roll) probably should earn minimum wage - thats £24k per year on a 40 hour week. A lot of the new grad vet packages start at low 30's and you need to pay qualified nurses somewhere in the middle there. Just because prices have gone up 25% doesn't mean profits have, the costs of running a vet practice have spiralled since COVID - a fee rise of 25% may be needed just to stand still. An employee should be charging their work out properly and not missing things off the bill. So what is 'interesting'?

It also becomes a real issue when we look at Arlo's very noble concept - the ONLY way we can pay the staff and run the business is by doing work and billing owners. The more profitable the work we do, the more money in the practice, and the more available to pay staff. I agree with Evelyn - the time to do this is in the consultation. That said, we don't have to offer EVERY possible option with equal emphasis......

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Cinzia Gandini — Sun, 18 Aug 2024 10:41:09 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245315#245315"]if you are consulting properly[/quote]

I totally agree, but

Almost 60% of UK vet surgeries are now owned by six large companies, and I've found the following very interesting

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/article/2024/aug/18/vets-extend-strike-in-first-industrial-action-to-hit-britains-pet-care-sector

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 17 Aug 2024 15:45:26 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245309#245309"]Just ask in such a way as to get a better feel for the client's broad approach to what they feel comfortable spending on treatment for their dog. Are they someone who really wants to find the cheapest solution to the problem (ie minimal diagnostics, no bells and whistles), or are they someone who, probably with the comfort of insurance, wants to throw the kitchen sink at it. Or do they sit somewhere in the middle. [/quote]

But that's something you establish during the consultation, if you are consulting properly.

[quote userid="4181" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245314#245314"]Is that not what building long term owner-vet relationships and continuity of care is about, rather than a culture where people shop around and are under the care of multiple vets for vaccines / preventative care /illnesses. [/quote]

Exactly.

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Rob Loxley — Sat, 17 Aug 2024 14:47:05 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245309#245309"] Just ask in such a way as to get a better feel for the client's broad approach to what they feel comfortable spending on treatment for their dog. Are they someone who really wants to find the cheapest solution to the problem (ie minimal diagnostics, no bells and whistles), or are they someone who, probably with the comfort of insurance, wants to throw the kitchen sink at it. Or do they sit somewhere in the middle. [/quote]

I think also labelling clients (as all this data will end up on their records) may then end up with them being given fewer options and people's circumstances and views change. e.g. my young agility dog I'm happy to spend the ££ on referral for cruciate surgery, the old creaky cat maybe I just want some palliatve care; my ability to pay may change when a partner is made redundant

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 17 Aug 2024 11:47:18 GMT

[quote userid="11493" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245307#245307"]

In my view consultations should be paid prior to them taking place. Anything else could be discussed afterwards.

Change my mind.

[/quote]

I'm a vet not a prostitute. And the vast majority of our clients pays their bills, why should we target them? Any clients with missed appointments will be asked to pay in advance before booking a new one in.

First time clients are also asked to pay in advance as well.

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:07:47 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245308#245308"]

Francisco Gomez said:
In my view consultations should be paid prior to them taking place. Anything else could be discussed afterwards.

I feel a crazy idea. Give me a single reason why? Virtually every consult will then result in a second transaction.

[/quote]

We were talking about this at work this week.

We seem to have had an increase in people missing appointments recently, often at short notice without a reason being given. I had one on thursday; new client, litter of 9 puppies for 1st vacc and microchip, and 1 hour or 4 appointments blocked off, didn't show. Not only a loss of revenue, but 4 other clients and sick pets were turned away when they could have been seen.

Maybe part of a solution would be advance payments with no refund if cancelled within 24 hours, or failed to attend.

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:02:21 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245309#245309"]But the difference is that repairs to a car are SO much more clear cut. Timing belt needs changing. That'll be £1500. There isnt really a discussion about different options, or whether you can do something to keep the car going a little longer before it goes bang, or what level of repair the owner can afford or want to spend. It's either £1500 or public transport. [/quote]

Not always clear cut or black and white.

1. look for someone to do it cheaper. My car needed a new clutch and flywheel last year; main stealer = £2400, local independent £900, using genuine Audi parts and an Audi trained mechanic set up on his own.

2. Change it yourself, not that difficult, I've done them before in about 2 hours, and the belt itself was about £25.

3. Inspect the belt for wear or contamination, and replace it or not based on its condition.

4. Don't bother to do it. It will likely go on for ever, but there is the risk it could break and smash the engine. VW used to advise changing cambelts every 55,000 miles for regular owners, and over 100,000 for fleet vehicles (same car, same belt, why, if not just a money spinner?)

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 17 Aug 2024 08:32:23 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245308#245308"] Could have either effect if you make it a target. If you asked me how much I'd spend on a car before going to the garage, may be a very different figure spent when I find out what is wrong......[/quote]

But the difference is that repairs to a car are SO much more clear cut. Timing belt needs changing. That'll be £1500. There isnt really a discussion about different options, or whether you can do something to keep the car going a little longer before it goes bang, or what level of repair the owner can afford or want to spend. It's either £1500 or public transport.

Yes, I was thinking that as I wrote it. If you tell someone money is no object, then they will usually charge more. Except most vets are very honest, and I don't think that even with the instruction that money is no object, they/you are going to start recommending anything that has no benefit.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245308#245308"]If you asked me how much I'd spend on a car before going to the garage, may be a very different figure spent when I find out what is wrong......[/quote]

I wasn't thinking you should ask the question that specifically. Just ask in such a way as to get a better feel for the client's broad approach to what they feel comfortable spending on treatment for their dog. Are they someone who really wants to find the cheapest solution to the problem (ie minimal diagnostics, no bells and whistles), or are they someone who, probably with the comfort of insurance, wants to throw the kitchen sink at it. Or do they sit somewhere in the middle.

First problem is that it may be difficult to ask the question without sounding grasping. But if a vet said to me ...

"Arlo, there've been huge advances in veterinary care over the last 20 years and we can now offer a much greater choice of diagnostic and treatment options, some of which are expensive. So before we investigate the problem, it would help me to have an understanding of what you are comfortable with. Broadly speaking, would you like me to find the cheapest solution to the problem which I think has a reasonable chance of working. Or, would you rather I start with what I think is the best solution, regardless of what it costs?"

... I would not be offended.

I'm not saying that I think that is exactly the right frame of words, just trying to put across a general concept.

Certainly in my own experience I think it would have been helpful to feel like I was on the same financial page as my vet!

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 16 Aug 2024 21:24:51 GMT

[quote userid="11493" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult/245307#245307"]In my view consultations should be paid prior to them taking place. Anything else could be discussed afterwards. [/quote]

I feel a crazy idea. Give me a single reason why? Virtually every consult will then result in a second transaction.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31014/would-it-be-instructive-to-know-what-clients-are-happy-to-spend-at-the-start-of-the-consult"]What do do you think?[/quote]

Honestly not sure. Could have either effect if you make it a target. If you asked me how much I'd spend on a car before going to the garage, may be a very different figure spent when I find out what is wrong......

RE: Would it be instructive to know what clients are happy to spend at the start of the consult?

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 16 Aug 2024 18:08:32 GMT

In my view consultations should be paid prior to them taking place. Anything else could be discussed afterwards.

Change my mind.