Do we love dogs too much?

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Gerry Henry — Fri, 23 Aug 2024 19:08:44 GMT

Again hard to say without speaking to the dog, but even if they settle into their new home they never forget their old family, particularly if they had time to bond properly.

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Cinzia Gandini — Tue, 20 Aug 2024 21:45:17 GMT

[quote userid="7530" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31008/do-we-love-dogs-too-much/245277#245277"]They love us unconditionally,[/quote]

Do they miss their owners? My experience tells me no they don't miss their owners as soon as they move into a different house with different persons around them they immediately adapt to the new situation, as long as it's suitable and pleasant for them, sometimes it can even be better. So it's difficult to tell, if they like you and are jealous of you doesn't mean it's forever.

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 19 Aug 2024 08:29:20 GMT

[quote userid="2990" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31008/do-we-love-dogs-too-much/245320#245320"]Do you own a dog Arlo? [/quote]

Hi Penny Watson, not currently, no, but I grew up with 6 dogs (not simultaneously) and have owned one.

[quote userid="2990" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31008/do-we-love-dogs-too-much/245320#245320"] I am surprised you are surprised that 'vets would credit dogs with the cognitive ability to experience love'.[/quote]

I suppose I assumed that vets in general are more, I dunno, empirical in your thinking.

[quote userid="2990" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31008/do-we-love-dogs-too-much/245320#245320"]I suspect that most if not all of us would - and 'love' as humans understand it is much more limbic and hormonal than many of us, in our human-centric arrogance, would admit![/quote]

I don't see it as arrogance to be aware of the fact that animals have a far lower cognitive ability than humans. It's just a fact.

[quote userid="2990" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31008/do-we-love-dogs-too-much/245320#245320"]Philosophically, why is it not possible for other members of the animal kingdom to experience 'love'?[/quote]

How about if I reverse the question. Do you think dogs can experience 'hate'?

Surely if a dog has the ability to feel love, then it must also be able to experience hate.

Also, I don't see it as a philosophical thing, but an empirical one.

I suppose my starting point is that love is a complex emotion which combines all sorts of components: empathy, attraction, lust, intellectual compatibility and so on and so on.

I think to experience 'love' demands a certain minimum cognitive ability.

Dogs are thought to understand 150-200 human words. Humans have a vocabulary of 20-35,000 words.

The only reference I can find online is the psychologist who puts dogs on a par with a 2 year old: https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2009/08/dogs-think

Whether or not you think a two year old can experience love, depends, I think, on what you think love is. Interesting reader opinions in this guardian article: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/jun/19/readers-reply-at-what-age-do-we-become-capable-of-love

Broadly speaking, most seem to say that if you think love is a very simple, basic thing, then yes, a baby can experience it. But most seem to be of the opinion that you cant experience love until you experience empathy, or the ability to talk, and these things don't happen till you are two or three.

So in summary, I would argue that if dogs feel 'love' it is at SO much more basic a level than we experience it as to be not the same thing at all, and to equate the two is anthropomorphic.

I am not arguing that is an entirely bad thing. Just that if we love dogs too too much, it can cause behavioural difficulties (in dogs) and it can cause problems for humans too (saddling themselves with huge amounts of debt because they think (wrongly, I believe), that the dog is an equal member of the family to humans).

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31008/do-we-love-dogs-too-much/245333#245333"]Absolutely convinced, many farmers would miss their dog more than their wife, if one was to leave.[/quote]

When I said 'farmer', I was thinking of an Australian farmer. They are much more matter of fact.

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Gerry Henry — Mon, 19 Aug 2024 06:39:54 GMT

At the end of the day we’ll never know until they can tell us themselves … but I think they do (Dachshunds especially ).

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 19 Aug 2024 01:26:47 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31008/do-we-love-dogs-too-much/245281#245281"]I just wonder whether the relationship a farmer has with his dog is, generally speaking, a healthier one than that between a modern day pet owner who sees their dog as a child, smothers it in love, dresses it up etc. [/quote]

I know a number of farmers where the dog sleep on/in their bed. Absolutely convinced, many farmers would miss their dog more than their wife, if one was to leave.

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Penny Watson — Sun, 18 Aug 2024 10:59:21 GMT

What a strange thread this has been - I hesitate to get involved. Do you own a dog Arlo? I am surprised you are surprised that 'vets would credit dogs with the cognitive ability to experience love'. I suspect that most if not all of us would - and 'love' as humans understand it is much more limbic and hormonal than many of us, in our human-centric arrogance, would admit! Philosophically, why is it not possible for other members of the animal kingdom to experience 'love'? We do get very attached to our dogs, They do get very attached to us. It is not just about food. Certainly I am confident that my first collie would have fought to the death to protect me, for example. I think the studies on oxytocin release in dogs and owners are really revealing - they are referenced from the link given below. Oxytocin is the bonding hormone - for couples and mothers to babies, so is it so surprising we get so attached to our dogs and they to us? I agree we should not treat them as children - they are not children - but they are valued members of our families non-the-less - and yes, I am convinced they love us (but agree with Clare that I am less convinced about cats!)

https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/lifestyle/can-our-dogs-really-love-us/

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 23:47:48 GMT

May be genetic.

People with this condition could take the lead role in the film Enchanted, it does exist.

See https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/dog-friendliness-1.4215907

A friendly condition

Williams syndrome, also known as Williams-Beuren syndrome, occurs when people are missing of a chunk of DNA containing about 27 genes. The syndrome affects about one in 10,000 people , and it is associated with a suite of mental and physical traits, including bubbly, extroverted personalities, a broad forehead, full cheeks, heart defects, intellectual disability and an affinity for music.

The first hint of a link between dogs and Williams syndrome came in 2010, when evolutionary biologist Bridgett vonHoldt and her colleagues examined DNA from 225 wolves and 912 dogs from 85 breeds. They were looking for parts of the genome that have been shaped by selection since dogs diverged from wolves.

One gene that popped out was WBSCR17 , suggesting that it or other genes near it were important in dog evolution. This region of the genome is similar in dogs and humans, and the human version of WBSCR17 is located near the sequence that is deleted in people with Williams syndrome.

Also https://ww2.aip.org/inside-science/rare-human-syndrome-may-explain-why-dogs-are-so-friendly

The researchers focused on chromosome 6 in both dogs and humans.

In humans, we know the role of this part of the genome from the study of Williams-Beuren syndrome, a genetic disorder that results in hypersociability, such as extreme friendliness and a lack of fear of strangers.

"It was the remarkable similarity between the behavioural presentation of Williams-Beuren syndrome and the friendliness of domesticated dogs that suggested to us that there may be similarities in the genetic architecture of the two phenotypes," said Bridgett vonHoldt, an assistant professor in ecology and evolutionary biology at Princeton and the study's lead co-author.

There you go

Neil

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Elizabeth — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 22:48:54 GMT

A même with this on popped up in my timeline today.

« When your children are teenagers, it's important to have a dog so that someone in the house is happy
to see you. «

I’m sure not all dogs love their owners, but all of mine definitely have.

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 21:49:45 GMT

Actually I think I’ve got it now

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 19:24:41 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31008/do-we-love-dogs-too-much/245297#245297"]Whilst there are examples of this being taken too far in general ascribing emotions to animals improves our moral consideration of them, and phenomenological based medicine is probably the most patient centred methodology out there. [/quote]

Sorry to be thick but could you explain this to me please ?

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

David Mills — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 19:02:23 GMT

Not sure he semantics really matter. Dogs are sociable, affectionate animals with strong bonds to humans that is reciprocated. Whilst some behaviours such as licking and tail wagging may have roots in some physiological actions they aren't restricted to this and have evolved to strengthen the bond between dogs and humans.

There's interesting work / theory about the co evolution of dogs and humans and how anthropomorphism has been selected for as a positive care giver behaviour and better parenting - ascribing emotions to other humans is very similar if not identical to doing the same with animals.

Whilst there are examples of this being taken too far in general ascribing emotions to animals improves our moral consideration of them, and phenomenological based medicine is probably the most patient centred methodology out there.

Add into this that if the NHS could prescribe one thing to improve the mental and physical health of the over 60s it would be a dog - the benefits far outstrip any medicalised care.

Lastly some of the hardest PTSs I've done are with farmers and their working collies or labs. They are their constant companions and the sobbing I've witnessed in the past was fundamentally touching and incredibly sad. Whether they "love" their dogs is a superfluous label really.

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 17:59:56 GMT

Now I do agree that making a dog into a child with all the faff with coats and neckerchiefs is all about the human not the dog. Love is different things to different people , the love of a parent , the love of a child , a sibling etc and so I think the love of a dog is unique too. I do disagree that a dog only expresses love as obtaining something from the human , sometimes they want attention and that is like a child , it all becomes blurred by analysis of what love is. It is different things to different individuals and that includes dogs for me. My dog is my companion not my child

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 17:03:01 GMT

[quote userid="2490" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31008/do-we-love-dogs-too-much/245286#245286"]Blimey Arlo I couldn’t disagree more. [/quote]

Blimey Clare Tapsfield-Wright, I'm really surprised by the turn the discussion is taking. Fascinating. I didn't expect vets to credit a dog with the cognitive ability to experience love as a human understands the term.

Gerry Henry in answer to your earlier question about what love is - many very much more eloquent people have put it in better words than I could, but my point really is that in humans, it's a complex mix of attraction, compatibility, desire, friendship, lust, and so on and so on, and there is no evidence that dogs have the cognitive ability to experience any of those things.

[quote userid="2490" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31008/do-we-love-dogs-too-much/245286#245286"]A baby hasn’t much cognition but they are capable of love.[/quote]

I thought they just belched and farted!

Joking aside, I dont think a baby has the cognitive ability to experience 'love' either (as explained here: https://babysparks.com/2017/10/12/the-evolution-of-emotions-part-1-your-babys-first-year, and if a baby cannot, then a dog sure cant either.

[quote userid="16672" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31008/do-we-love-dogs-too-much/245288#245288"]I wonder if you're overestimating how much control we as humans have over emotions, feelings, and behaviours, Arlo.[/quote]

Martin Hamilton - I'm not arguing about the level of control we have over emotions, feelings etc, which I suspect may be limited! I'm arguing that other animals have nothing like the level of cognitive function than we enjoy, and to credit them with it is anthropomorphic.

Ie the dog wagging its tail is doing so to spread pheremones, or the dog licking your face is doing so for food related reasons. Both of these behaviours are things we like to think of as indicators of love, but in reality are much more basic (I would argue).

I'm not arguing its wrong to anthropomorphise a little, it's a large part of the pleasure of owning an animal (even a cat). The point of my question is whether we are now taking it too much too far, with negative consequences for both dog and owner.

I mean, dressing dogs up, feeding them dog ice cream, having them stay at dog hotels, considering them as a fully-fledged member of the family (when they patently are not) and so on and so on (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/22/learning/do-we-pamper-our-pets-too-much.html)

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Martin Hamilton — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 13:43:09 GMT

I wonder if you're overestimating how much control we as humans have over emotions, feelings, and behaviours, Arlo. When it comes down to it we as humans are just like any other animal - pattern recognition machines that form habits and behaviours based on what we see during childhood and throughout our lives. Sometimes this can lead to pathologic behaviour patterns that we don't knowingly chose. We like to think we are unique, but much of our behaviours are just like other animals. I think it's hard to nail down a definition of love - it can take many forms.

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 13:26:39 GMT

Blimey Arlo I couldn’t disagree more. Yes they are capable of love , in fact I think they are more generous with their love than many humans who want something tangible in return whereas dogs want your company. A baby hasn’t much cognition but they are capable of love. My cat definitely doesn’t love me but my dog does and I’m not into letting them lick my face , that’s just gross

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 09:22:58 GMT

[quote userid="7530" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31008/do-we-love-dogs-too-much/245282#245282"]So what is love ?[/quote]

I would argue its an emotion felt by humans because other animals do not have anything like a high enough level of cognition to experience love.

Furthermore, the behaviours which animals exhibit and we choose to interpret as love are nothing of the sort ... ie tail wagging to increase the spread of pheromones from the anal gland, licking the face to signal hunger or trigger food regurgitation etc.

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Gerry Henry — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 08:57:50 GMT

So what is love ?

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 07:50:09 GMT

But Gerry Henry, dogs don't have the ability to 'love', they just display behaviours which we choose to interpret as such - wagging tails, licking faces, jumping up etc.

My understanding of these behaviours (which I grant you is limited!), is that they are all about marking territory, getting food or even just a bit of pavlovian conditioning.

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31008/do-we-love-dogs-too-much/245262#245262"]That said, I come form a farming background and have a pragmatic approach to animals. If a pet gets ill and dies, or is severely injured, thats the way of it - would be upset of course, but I would get over it and move on fairly quickly.[/quote]

I have a similar outlook - I just wonder whether the relationship a farmer has with his dog is, generally speaking, a healthier one than that between a modern day pet owner who sees their dog as a child, smothers it in love, dresses it up etc.

I am sure I have heard of studies suggesting that that level of anthropomorphism is not healthy for the dog either - potentially causing behavioural issues when the dog thinks it is the leader of the pack, or separation anxiety when the relationship is too physically close and the animal is left alone.

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Gerry Henry — Mon, 12 Aug 2024 21:42:23 GMT

They love us unconditionally, we reciprocate.

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 10 Aug 2024 18:36:07 GMT

I'm not sure if it is love. I have always been very fond of the pets I have owned, but never loved them in the way I love some other humans.

I do think some/many people have an almost pathological attachment to animals, and almost view them as human beings. That said, I come form a farming background and have a pragmatic approach to animals. If a pet gets ill and dies, or is severely injured, thats the way of it - would be upset of course, but I would get over it and move on fairly quickly.

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 10 Aug 2024 00:46:33 GMT

no what?

RE: Do we love dogs too much?

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 09 Aug 2024 19:21:58 GMT