Who's to blame for the racist riots?

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Gerry Henry — Sat, 24 Aug 2024 08:42:14 GMT

Yes you’re right. Our own profession is a perfect example of a remote, useless organisation (the RCVS) failing for decades, and continuing to fail, to really tackle recruitment and retention.

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 24 Aug 2024 08:36:59 GMT

[quote userid="7530" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245386#245386"]They had rotten lives, rotten prospects, rotten health, rotten jobs, rotten housing and rotten schools. Successive governments alternately woo them, lie to them and then betray them.[/quote]

This is what I always said, it is a bad deal for the poor and it's about all immigration not just the illegal one. Every "brain" imported is a failed opportunity to train one of your own but if you need it now that what can be done? The opportunity was missed 20-30 years ago when it was decided that it is cheaper to import than to educate and if anyone wants to fix immigration then education FOR ALL should come first.

Like it or not, people like me are a good deal for Britain and a bad deal for my country of origin. We took nothing from the system, we put in straight away and many of us will not be here in 30 years time when we (like all people) will start to cost the state money. And we are a bad deal for those who could have been more if they weren't left behind.

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Gerry Henry — Fri, 23 Aug 2024 19:29:06 GMT

I do care about them because I am British and this is my country. Many of these people or people like them were my clients. They had rotten lives, rotten prospects, rotten health, rotten jobs, rotten housing and rotten schools. Successive governments alternately woo them, lie to them and then betray them. They are the ones who have had to face the daily consequences of mass immigration; they can't get a decent house but see illegal migrants in 4* hotels. They are furious so, having tried democracy and having been consistently let down, they took to the streets. The French do it quite a lot. Macron tried the 'far right' villification of the Gillets Jaune and that was a lie too. Now its happening in Ireland. Do you think there might be a pattern - of entitled, remote elites not listening to the people ? Sneering at them isn't a strategy.

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Cinzia Gandini — Wed, 21 Aug 2024 15:44:29 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245375#245375"]Xenophobia means[/quote]

that's mainly the etymology of the word, but the meaning given to it it's slightly different, the Cambridge dictionary for Xenophobia and Xenophobic it's describing it as showing an extreme dislike or fear of people from foreign countries:
There have been outbursts of xenophobic violence.
The attacks have been described by police as racist and xenophobic.

On the other hand the article doesn't consider the fact that human races do not find any scientific evidence, in a few words they don't exist. The only subspecies or race is the Homo sapiens Neanderthalensis. So it's usually referred to ethnic groups, that do not find any scientific evidence too. So the word racial or racist should be eliminated. Even the word xeno-racism suggested in my opinion is obsolete but you know as I said I don't know it's not my field.

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 21 Aug 2024 15:22:31 GMT

[quote userid="4103" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245348#245348"]

Michael Woodhouse said:
social scientist need to do better

I'm not into that field so I don't know but my point is to see what's the correct use of the term xenophobia, in what context can be used, the difference with other similar terms, and to see when it's usually used and why, and in fact that paper is giving an answer to it. BTW JEMS has a high impact factor

[/quote]

Xenophobia means a pathological fear of things foreign.

I can't help it if even quite respectable people mis-use the word to refer to something else. I can only point out the mis-use.

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Cinzia Gandini — Mon, 19 Aug 2024 22:08:42 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245345#245345"]social scientist need to do better[/quote]

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 19 Aug 2024 21:39:55 GMT

[quote userid="4103" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245344#245344"]what do you think of it?[/quote]

It's no more than a news article, and an insult to present such as a 'paper'. The social scientist need to do better.

Measure reported race crimes before and after Brexit, look at convictions. Get some real data and not anecdote

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Cinzia Gandini — Mon, 19 Aug 2024 21:32:17 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245340#245340"]Don't believe everything you read.[/quote]

Great suggestion, I don't, I just read, consider, share... but this is published in the Journal of ethnic and migration studies, what do you think of it?

https://oars.uos.ac.uk/2532/1/Racism%20and%20xenophobia--.pdf

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 19 Aug 2024 19:45:21 GMT

[quote userid="4103" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245324#245324"]I’ve read on an article that when you can’t actually define a race, instead of using the word racist it’s more appropriate to use the word xenophobic[/quote]

Don't believe everything you read.

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 19 Aug 2024 19:42:46 GMT

[quote userid="11493" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245317#245317"]

Evelyn Barbour-Hill said:
means a pathological fear of the foreign. Note, fear not hatred

Evelyn Barbour-Hill said:
I don't understand Francisco's

Fear creates discomfort and hatred can serve as a defense mechanism to reduce this discomfort. They are intimately related.

By vilifying what we fear, we can justify our feelings and sometimes actions.

[/quote]

Yes. Sometimes. And it still doesn't change the definition.

I still don't understand your post that said

[quote userid="11493" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245287#245287"]

Lucy Fleming said:
The cultural impact, or the relative impact on a particular community/ area, is much more difficult to quantify

Consistently, areas of higher immigration are less resistant and more welcoming to it.

That's literally the definition and etymology of 'xenophobia'.

[/quote]

[quote userid="11493" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245317#245317"]You can apply this thought process to many spheres. Even in Veterinary medicine often vets 'hate' ophthalmology. Once they get to know a way of treating ophthalmology patients, things change. [/quote]

I think you know, really, Francisco, that this kind of "hate" is just a bit of hyperbole to express their dislike of ophthalmology.

Anyway, you don't vilify such veterinary surgeons for "hate crime", you help them get over their difficulty..

[quote userid="4103" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245318#245318"]

Evelyn Barbour-Hill said:
Note, fear not hatred

That’s the correct etymology but I’ve seen it used to describe xenophobic violence, riots, discrimination, etc I remember when the newspapers reported cards placed in young kids school bags with written go home, that was xenophobic

[/quote]

Or just school children being their usual obnoxious cruel selves?

Well, it's not the only word that is commonly misused or abused, generally by ignorant people, especially journalists who are also stupid and lazy.

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Cinzia Gandini — Sun, 18 Aug 2024 14:26:05 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245322#245322"]That's not Xenophobia[/quote]

I’ve read on an article that when you can’t actually define a race, instead of using the word racist it’s more appropriate to use the word xenophobic

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Clive Ansell — Sun, 18 Aug 2024 13:41:01 GMT

[quote userid="4103" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245318#245318"]That’s the correct etymology but I’ve seen it used to describe xenophobic violence, riots, discrimination, etc I remember when the newspapers reported cards placed in young kids school bags with written go home, that was xenophobic[/quote]

That's not Xenophobia or genuine fear, but more ignorance, blatant stupidity, thuggery and hatred

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Cinzia Gandini — Sun, 18 Aug 2024 11:07:14 GMT

[quote userid="11493" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245317#245317"]we fear,[/quote]

I wonder what the Romans said when they left Britain, like maybe 'all our best, or 'best wishes'

https://theconversation.com/the-roman-brexit-how-life-in-britain-changed-after-409ad-93886#:~:text=Leaving%20a%20major%20political%20body,control%20of%20the%20Roman%20Empire.

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Cinzia Gandini — Sun, 18 Aug 2024 10:19:54 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245316#245316"]Note, fear not hatred[/quote]

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 18 Aug 2024 07:39:37 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245316#245316"] means a pathological fear of the foreign. Note, fear not hatred[/quote][quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245316#245316"] I don't understand Francisco's[/quote]

Fear creates discomfort and hatred can serve as a defense mechanism to reduce this discomfort. They are intimately related.

By vilifying what we fear, we can justify our feelings and sometimes actions.

You can apply this thought process to many spheres. Even in Veterinary medicine often vets 'hate' ophthalmology. Once they get to know a way of treating ophthalmology patients, things change.

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 17 Aug 2024 15:59:38 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245294#245294"]Xenophobia - from ancient Greek I believe, Xenos which can mean either stranger, alien, foreign; and phobos which can mean either flight or fear of [/quote]

Exactly. It means a pathological fear of the foreign. Note, fear not hatred.

Which is why I don't understand Francisco's comment.

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 16:08:27 GMT

Xenophobia - from ancient Greek I believe, Xenos which can mean either stranger, alien, foreign; and phobos which can mean either flight or fear of

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 15:53:07 GMT

[quote userid="11493" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245287#245287"]That's literally the definition and etymology of 'xenophobia'.[/quote]

Eh?

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 14:51:39 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245278#245278"]A quick google suggests over 10 million people living here who were not born here, 16% of the population. I'd argue pretty significant........[/quote]

Without a breakdown and more information, it is meaningless.

How many are permanent or temporary (Students etc)?

how many are legal vs illegal?

How many are genuine refugees seeking asylum?

When we were in the EU, how many were EU citizens who had a right to be here?

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 13:39:28 GMT

However it is quanified

[quote userid="10320" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245285#245285"]The cultural impact, or the relative impact on a particular community/ area, is much more difficult to quantify[/quote]

Consistently, areas of higher immigration are less resistant and more welcoming to it.

That's literally the definition and etymology of 'xenophobia'.

Populations change even without immigration. It's inevitable.

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 13 Aug 2024 13:18:35 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245278#245278"]I'd argue pretty significant......[/quote]

Significant in what way though? Some public services, perhaps most notably the NHS, are actually fairly dependent on employees not born in the UK, and wouldn't function as well (at all?) without them. Overall, migrants are relatively more likely to be of working age, relatively fit and healthy, and employed (therefore contributing tax to the economy, though that can be lessened by them working in lower paid jobs due to lack of recognition of qualifications etc) compared to the average, especially with an ageing population.

Legal/ working migrants are going to be the majority of the population you mentioned. Asylum seekers/ "illegal migrants" are a pretty tiny minority overall, though they aren't able to work and are limited to claiming an allowance/ benefit.

The cultural impact, or the relative impact on a particular community/ area, is much more difficult to quantify, especially as David pointed out, settlement of migrants around the country isn't evenly spread. And if migrants are disproportionately employed in low-wage positions, then there will be those who feel displaced from those positions (especially if that's about all that's on offer in the area, or opportunities to get further qualifications have been limited) - I'd still argue that's an issue with an overall low-wage economy that seems to favour large employers (rather than either workers or small businesses as employers)

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 12 Aug 2024 23:18:02 GMT

[quote userid="10320" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245259#245259"]

People are absolutely right to be angry about our creaking public services, level of inequality and quality of life, but migration is not the cause of it.

[/quote]

A quick google suggests over 10 million people living here who were not born here, 16% of the population. I'd argue pretty significant........

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

David Mills — Mon, 12 Aug 2024 13:20:27 GMT

[quote userid="11493" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245266#245266"]For the record, I'm not about finding common ground, thanks. I despise every single one of them.[/quote]

At least the left is consistent e.g.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1930249/Huw-Edwards-Owen-Jones-defence

So your solution is to ignore people and their concerns if you don't agree with them?

Immigration, stubbornly for the Left, continues to be an issue for a large swathe of the electorate:

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-of-concern/

The riots weren't all about immigration, but it was a factor. Yes there was racism and wanton violence, possibly the majority of people were in this category. But it is undeniable that many previous industrial (mainly northern) towns have had their sociodemographic make up changed in the last 20+ years beyond recognition (largely as these poorer areas are given money to house people). Are their concerns immaterial because middle class lefties tell them they are? Should we just keep ignoring concerns because the left don't agree with these concerns on a moral level? Should large numbers of disaffected people be simply despised?

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Malcolm Ness — Mon, 12 Aug 2024 12:33:54 GMT

[quote userid="11493" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245266#245266"]I despise every single one of them.[/quote]

.... enough to wish their throats slit?

It's not just the extremists fuelling the fire, those with an unshakeable belief in their own rectitude are also culpable.

RE: Who's to blame for the racist riots?

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 11 Aug 2024 18:07:37 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31006/who-s-to-blame-for-the-racist-riots/245263#245263"]you store up more and more resentment. And isolation. And do nothing for the root causes. [/quote]

Let's differentiate snowflakery and victimisation. Racists' actions should not have me or anyone else to "do" something about what they think they are protesting about.

That's a 'them' problem and making it someone's elses legitimises their behaviour. And by extension those who support Reform LTD and their candidates.

I cannot find a laziest reason than 'I haven’t vet them thats why I didn’t know they were racist' as Farage himself admitted. These thugs protest now. After 14 years of the same trope, they protest now. If that's not a lazy, political stun, I don't know what is.

For the record, I'm not about finding common ground, thanks. I despise every single one of them.