What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

David Mills — Fri, 09 Aug 2024 20:26:32 GMT

Tricky subject.

A good friend works in the civil service that runs Aair traffic control. Great pay for an ATC. But only a few people can do it mentally as they need a particular ability to think in 3D about plane position and speed etc.

There are and always be jobs that some people can't do. That's not discriminatory. It's just a certain physical or mental skill set.

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Judith Joyce — Thu, 08 Aug 2024 17:41:05 GMT

Modern A levels also appear to favour the 'good girls' who study over the two years, get course work in on time and are obedient about the use of 'key words', whereas I think it has been said that boys favour the 'performance' of a final exam only - generalisations again. Is there socio-economic data to go with the gender differences in further education Its easier to risk taking on the debt of a five year course if there are parents who can underwrite the loan.

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Lucy Fleming — Thu, 08 Aug 2024 11:01:45 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245230#245230"]Most will have a reasonably good idea where they can get in or not. If you don't stand a chance then you won't apply.[/quote]

Very true, and one of the areas where schools are failing young men (especially from underprivileged backgrounds) - I suspect a lot of them would actually be fine with the academic side of the course, but they aren't being supported in achieving what they can, so grades are lower, and confidence in their abilities perhaps lower still?

[quote userid="9239" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245230#245230"]But girls do have an unfair natural advantage.[/quote]

I'm not sure how true this is in terms of physical development, or whether boys and girls are socialised to behave differently which results in different academic outcomes (boys being expected/ allowed to be rowdy/ more physically active, whereas girls are expected to settle down, be quiet and get on with their work), but either way it's still definitely a real/ significant difference of outcome.

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245232#245232"]I wonder if young males today are more money focused?[/quote]

I've definitely also heard that this is considered to be more of a consideration in young men when looking at higher education choices (compared to young women) though I don't know how much research their is behind it.

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Clive Ansell — Wed, 07 Aug 2024 10:25:16 GMT

[quote userid="10320" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245229#245229"]My understanding is that they aren't applying - I think the gender balance of those applying to those accepted stays about the same. So you would need to dig further back into why they aren't applying. [/quote]

I wonder if young males today are more money focused? the last 2 A level students I have been with seeing practice ran a mile when the discovered what a typical working day is and what earning potential is. Both seemed interested very early on on what they could earn, whereas back in my day I didn't even consider it, I just wanted to be a vet.

To a point I can understand it, certainly if they have to amass debts approaching 6 figures before they qualify.

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Dinu Catilina — Tue, 06 Aug 2024 13:02:08 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245228#245228"]Do males apply and get turned down, or just not apply in the first place?[/quote]

16-17 year old boys just don't do as well academically as girls the same age. Some apply and don't get in and some don't bother. They know they don't have a chance.

Most will have a reasonably good idea where they can get in or not. If you don't stand a chance then you won't apply.

I am not saying the males should be allowed to have an advantage over females just because they're, you know, young silly blokes. But girls do have an unfair natural advantage. Boys and girls are separated in sports because boys have a physical advantage but we don't do the same in relation to frontal cortex maturity. Or maybe I talk rubbish

But overall in the UK there are more women than men in higher education.

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 06 Aug 2024 10:02:53 GMT

My understanding is that they aren't applying - I think the gender balance of those applying to those accepted stays about the same. So you would need to dig further back into why they aren't applying.

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 06 Aug 2024 09:25:51 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245225#245225"]Lets try and get some more blokes on the course.[/quote]

Do they want to do it?

Do males apply and get turned down, or just not apply in the first place?

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 05 Aug 2024 22:09:25 GMT

[quote userid="13891" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245220#245220"]

It doesn't matter, but IMHO it's just that they are more likely to be standing in front of you if they are working class and possibly even male.

[/quote]

As in longevity in the profession? I think this is a HUGE are that we need to put a lot more focus on. Lets try and get some more blokes on the course.

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Lucy Fleming — Mon, 05 Aug 2024 17:48:51 GMT

The pilot doesn't set the price of the airline ticket - whereas to an extent, the vet sets the price of treatment by making a plan/ set of recommendations. A combination of perhaps a higher willingness to spend time and money treating a pet (it seems fairly safe to suggest that those that go into vet medicine are likely to be fonder than average of animals) with a lack of direct, first-hand experience of hardship in the majority of vets* could easily be contributing to the perception that vet treatments are getting more and more expensive and vets just don't understand how to create a more budget alternative.

* This is not some moral criticism, and I include myself in that category, having been lucky enough to have family support through education and to be paid relatively well in the grand scheme of things since. I think most vets are intelligent, widely-read and empathetic individuals who have a good outsider's perspective on financial hardship, but reasonable number have not actually *been* there...

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Judith Joyce — Sun, 04 Aug 2024 13:35:46 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245215#245215"]But does it matter as much whether the vet standing in front of you is working class or posh or anywhere in the middle? Surely not as much.[/quote]

It doesn't matter, but IMHO it's just that they are more likely to be standing in front of you if they are working class and possibly even male. Ready to accept this is a massive generalisation ( and all sorts of other criticism) but retention in the profession has dropped since gender balance changed - cause or association?

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Judith Joyce — Sun, 04 Aug 2024 09:06:08 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245182#245182"]I am not sure for how long the veterinary profession has had high rates of suicide. Anyone know? Was it ever thus? Or is it a feature of more recent veterinary practice?[/quote]

Depends on what you call recent. Suicide has been prevalent as long as I've been around (qual 1982). In response to your question at the top, I would say that more recently especially females have felt more free to be open about mental health challenges. Silent desperation is how I would describe many of the more mature colleagues I am aware of, for fear of family, friends and clients, not to mention the bank, finding out, in a demographic where 'pull yourself together' is the response. The female vet/nurse prevalence is interesting especially in view of the high incidence of suicide in young males nationally. Think the data needs a bit more interrogation. I'm not sure this survey, useful as it is, is rigorous enough to make older (? especially male?) 'confess' to mental health problems. Or they may feel that positive responses reinforce the current trend to medicalisation of mental health issues.

Ad hominem attacks are dangerous to anyone, the writer may confuse chutzpah with resilience, self esteem and confidence which is why I reacted to an earlier post, Arlo.

You've certainly stimulated discussion.

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

cairncross — Sun, 04 Aug 2024 08:23:44 GMT

2023 capa figures show 0.3 percent of airline seats taken up were first class ,{ 9 percent business class i would equate this to insurance as people arn't spending their own money}. The vast majority of our client base can only afford Ryanair yet for the last lot of years we veterinary have been seeking to ever increase our premium offering . Concorde is in a museum . The number of referral centres , specialists specialist centres specialist training courses and trainers has expanded probably exponentially , the client base hasnt. its Benidorm or bust. talking of which an xl American pit mastiff stafford bull was admitted to clinic the other day on a large Benedorm beach towel with full size naked lady imprinted , was it ok to find this funny ?

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Rob Loxley — Sun, 04 Aug 2024 06:55:23 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245215#245215"]Again, I don't actually know the figures, but I suspect you would find that most pilots are largely white middle or upper class. I dont think it makes any difference. I don't care if I am being flown by Lord Bottomley-Smythe or a barrow boy. All I want to know is that they are competent[/quote]

But the pilot is not required to personally engage, communicate with, empathise with etc each individual passenger. Unless you say we are the Ryanair vets this is our sole offering, most vets cater for economy, premium and first class levels of service provision?

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 03 Aug 2024 16:33:31 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245215#245215"]

https://diversityuk.org/census-2021-data-reveals-ethnic-make-up-of-uk-population/

From which we can see that ethnic minorities are underrepresented in the profession. Perhaps not by as much as I thought, but significantly, all the same.

[/quote]

Yes, true, but my observation (so maybe I am wrong) is that pet ownership is also underrepresented in the ethnic minorities groups. The vast majority of our clients is British white.

We may also look at diversity differently but to me British white and non British white is diversity. I also believe (I don't have numbers so again maybe I am wrong) that the percentage of non British vets is a lot higher than the percentage of non British pet owners. To me this is diversity.

Pet ownership is most certainly a lot lower in asian and black communities, especially in the first generation immigrants. Having pets in the house is mostly a western (I would say white but I don't want to sound supremacist) kink.

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 03 Aug 2024 14:39:34 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245200#245200"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
80% of respondents were female, 16.8% male, 1.4% non-binary, 0.8% genderfluid and 0.9% preferred not to say or to self describe. 93.3% were white, 2% were Asian or Asian British, 0.6% were black, black British, Caribbean or African.

The profession appears to be a long, long way from being representative of the communities it serves.

Arlo, I think the profession is actually representative of the commuinity they serve.

[/quote]

Dinu Catilina Your post made me go and look up the ethnic make up of the UK population (which I should have done before opening my mouth!).

https://diversityuk.org/census-2021-data-reveals-ethnic-make-up-of-uk-population/

From which we can see that ethnic minorities are underrepresented in the profession. Perhaps not by as much as I thought, but significantly, all the same.

Malcolm Ness makes the point that the profession is also not socio-economically representative.

I have no idea, but I'm wondering how important that is to clients.

Of course there are professions where it is useful to be socio economically representative.

For example, I've always thought that it would be beneficial to have more representative politicians.

David Cameron, for example, has absolutely no experience of what it is like to grow up on a housing estate, and I think that kind of experience is useful if you are going to represent people.

I suspect it is also useful to have an ethnically representative veterinary profession to bridge cultural divides.

But does it matter as much whether the vet standing in front of you is working class or posh or anywhere in the middle? Surely not as much.

Again, I don't actually know the figures, but I suspect you would find that most pilots are largely white middle or upper class. I dont think it makes any difference. I don't care if I am being flown by Lord Bottomley-Smythe or a barrow boy. All I want to know is that they are competent. The same, surely, is true in the veterinary profession.

Nor do I think it matters which gender ... except ...

For some reason we don't know, women are significantly more likely to have mental health issues, plus of course need more flexible working hours, which must be putting greater pressure on the rest of the workforce, particularly the men.

Which then ties in with ...

[quote userid="3607" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245208#245208"]Notably, and with reference to Michael's comments about the difficulties of making reasonable adjustments without impacting others colleagues, one potential stressor in three of 'my' veterinary suicides was their responsibility for organising and adjusting the workload of their practice colleagues[/quote]

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Alastair Welch — Sat, 03 Aug 2024 09:04:24 GMT

I always have a wry smile when we talk about flexible working- usually it means the precise opposite. This phrase has been adopted to mean the acceptance by the employer that the employee can adjust their hours/shift pattern into a new pattern which suits their personal circumstance. This new pattern is not at all ‘flexible’ but instead rather rigid- often book ended by caring responsibilities. The ‘flexibility’ is in fact borne by those not seeking flexible working at all- they are pushed into doing extra (usually at either end of the day or during antisocial times). If the individual seeking flexible working doesn’t contribute to the less desirable parts of the shift pattern then the unavoidable flip side is that they are forcing someone to do more of this undesirable work.

I currently work flexibly (without any agreement from my employer), but what I mean by this is that I regularly start work early/finish late/ do extra at the weekend when not on call etc on order that I can provide a good service to clients. I am content with this arrangement and point it out merely to highlight what flexible working actually is.

A while back we flirted with the idea of a job share agreement but it transpired that both parties were keen to do Tue, Wed and Thus morning with the other party required to do Mon Thur pm and Fri! We didn’t get very far.

We have lots of very capable, hard working and keen students seeing practice. They are very largely white, middle class privately educated females who are destined for part time ‘flexible’ working. The lack of diversity within the veterinary intake means that too great a proportion of graduates will have this as their future and it puts significant strain upon the remainder.

Providing reasonable adjustments for disability, chronic or mental health conditions sounds and is a good thing but if the required adjustments have a significant impact on the rest of the team then these adjustments are not reasonable. In an industry where most of the work is provided in small teams (even if owned by a larger parent company), seemingly small and reasonable adjustments can have a disproportionate impact on the rest of the small team.

I don’t see any easy solutions.

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

cairncross — Fri, 02 Aug 2024 20:12:08 GMT

I first met someone from public school at vet school suddenly I met lots. I think almost all NI vets and students will have and still do pas through the state education system .

Your last paragraph is very relevant and I have great fears for the new governance system being proposed and this survey itself putting even greater pressure on those in that most at risk co hort

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Lucy Fleming — Fri, 02 Aug 2024 14:16:35 GMT

[quote userid="3607" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245208#245208"]from a solidly working-class comprehensive school in urban Tyneside. There are hardly any people like me currently wending their way through a veterinary course[/quote]

This is very true, and I think massively overlooked in a lot of cases. As Martin mentioned as well, it's likely to only get more significant with work experience and EMS requirements selecting out a lot of those who need to work to supplement their income outside university hours (real, customer-facing experience in something like retail probably more relevant than a few weeks standing silently in the back of an operating theatre anyway?). Better understanding of the real struggles our clients may be facing to meet their household bills (even before taking into account their vet bill) could be helpful for a lot of vets

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Martin Hamilton — Fri, 02 Aug 2024 13:53:37 GMT

A few interesting points so far in the discussion. Just to add some opinions:

- Interesting to see the stats on suicide rates in the profession from some time ago. I'd also argue that people coped with mental illness differently 30yrs ago. Growing up I knew of a few vets that were alcoholics - maybe it was just the small market town I grew up in, but I'd imagine it wasn't. It's now well understood that people don't wake up and decide to drink their lives away, usually it's to mask or cope with mental illness. Flexibility of scheduling seems to certainly play a part in it, but as others have said that unfairly places more burden on colleagues.

- Discussing representation within the profession, selecting candidates and so on. I think it's a bit naive to ignore the fact that the academic requirements are going to skew towards women entering the profession. It's well recognised that girls tend to do better in school than boys in part due to differences in maturity and a more developed frontal cortex.

- There are many factors that favour students coming from a middle-upper class background (typically white). For example, pre-requisites to enter vet school (unpaid hours cleaning kennels, seeing practice, extracurriculars and so on), which continues on into vet school itself in the form of unpaid EMS. Graduating into a job with a pretty average salary but essentially paying extra income tax to pay off £50 grand of student loans. Of course vet school grads won't be representative of their communities should this be the case.

- Completely empathise with trouble with rotas, scheduling etc. we struggle with that here in Canada too. There's definitely a line, a blurry one at that, between providing a level playing field and then trying to facilitate someone with physical (or mental) disability when it's near impossible to do so.

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 02 Aug 2024 13:50:44 GMT

I agree with Arlo that the profession is unrepresentative of the community it serves. There is, however, much, much more to diversity. I am a white male from a solidly working-class comprehensive school in urban Tyneside. There are hardly any people like me currently wending their way through a veterinary course. An even rarer demographic amongst the abundance of frequently feckless minor public school alumni currently thronging the hallowed halls of our Vet Schools is the comprehensive-school alumnus, of any race or gender, that qualified for free school meals.

When I was a student, it was claimed confidently that teenagers from BAME backgrounds simply didn't want to be vets and a previous generation was told the same about women. Now we are asked to believe that poor people don't want to be vets.

"Sadly Michael's response is a big reason there has always been such high level of suicides in the profession."

As someone who has lost half a dozen veterinary acquaintances to suicide over the years, a couple of them close friends, I find this ad hominem attack on Michael abhorrent. That level of knowledge and insight about veterinary suicides simply does not exist. Certainly, it contrasts with my own experience. The scenarios implied, with spurious authority, matched none of those extant for my late friends and acquaintances. Notably, and with reference to Michael's comments about the difficulties of making reasonable adjustments without impacting others colleagues, one potential stressor in three of 'my' veterinary suicides was their responsibility for organising and adjusting the workload of their practice colleagues.

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Lucy Fleming — Fri, 02 Aug 2024 13:37:55 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health"]Another question over the higher rates of mental problems amongst females than males, especially vet nurses.[/quote]

There's an interesting issue here that may be playing into this (or may not, mood disorders do genuinely seem to be more common among women than men) in that women are more likely to be diagnosed with a mental health concern or mood disorder such as anxiety or depression when they actually have a physical health issue - lupus, endometriosis, even things like brain tumours or a heart attack...

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Lucy Fleming — Fri, 02 Aug 2024 13:31:01 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245172#245172"]What on earth is meant by genderfluid and neurodivergent?[/quote]

Neurodiverse is an umbrella term generally used to describe people with differences of neural processing. Generally, those with ADHD or on the autism spectrum, but also conditions such as dyslexia or dyspraxia.

I must admit I find it difficult to wrap my head around genderfluidity, but essentially someone who identifies as genderfluid doesn't feel that their gender identity is fixed and unchanging.

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Kate Richardson — Fri, 02 Aug 2024 12:56:50 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245200#245200"]not everyone can be what they want to be. Life is not fair, some are born short and they can't play basketball.[/quote]

Reminded of me at school when I went through a phase of wanting to be an air hostess- I was told I couldn't because I was too short and wore glasses.....

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 02 Aug 2024 08:22:10 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245198#245198"]

80% of respondents were female, 16.8% male, 1.4% non-binary, 0.8% genderfluid and 0.9% preferred not to say or to self describe. 93.3% were white, 2% were Asian or Asian British, 0.6% were black, black British, Caribbean or African.

The profession appears to be a long, long way from being representative of the communities it serves.

[/quote]

Arlo, I think the profession is actually representative of the commuinity they serve. I wouldn't be surprised if the profession is actually more diverse than the pet owners, especially if you consider immigrants and not just white/nonwhite as diversity.

I agree with Michael that resilicence should be very important for all vet sudents and yes, not everyone can be what they want to be. Life is not fair, some are born short and they can't play basketball. As a society we are more and more idealists rather than realists.

RE: What do you take from the RCVS report into disability, chronic illness and mental health?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 02 Aug 2024 07:08:46 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245196#245196"]I don't currently see a very diverse profession, do you? 95% female, middle class white girls - or that's who we get seeing practice.[/quote]

Yes, that is why I reported the full breakdown of participants in this survey - because although self-selecting, they were self-selecting for a different question (than their demographic):

The profession appears to be a long, long way from being representative of the communities it serves.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245196#245196"]These days there is a tendency to either self diagnose or have the medical profession label everything. When I did A-levels/vet college you got a bit worried about exams, now everyone has anxiety. You were sad your grandma died, now you're depressed. Whilst I'm sure it existed, when I was a teenager I never met a single person with a formal diagnosis of anxiety - now there's 10 in every class. I'm sure if I was in the education system now I could have some kind of autistic/neurodivergent label placed on me, but never happened in my day and hasn't been a great problem for me.[/quote]

So true. And the thing is (as I have recent experience of), labels become self-perpetuating. Someone gives you a diagnosis (and I am not talking about me personally here!), and then you (and the people around you) cherry pick everything to fit that diagnosis, which exacerbates the problem (if indeed there was one in the first place). It's a difficult one, because of course there are lots of people with very real problems - but how on earth one can differentiate between those who are, for example, very worried, vs those who have anxiety which needs treatment?

[quote userid="3585" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245187#245187"]From: Bartram, D. J. & Baldwin, D. S. (2010) Veterinary surgeons and suicide: a structured review of possible influences on increased risk. Veterinary Record 166, 388-397. Link to the Bartram and Baldwin paper[/quote]

Thank you Glen McIntosh, interesting. Was wondering the same myself, re Herriot's day.

[quote userid="19228" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/31003/what-do-you-take-from-the-rcvs-report-into-disability-chronic-illness-and-mental-health/245194#245194"] HoW ON EARTH ARE ROTA AND SHIFT CHANGES EASY AND INEXPENSIVE ? [/quote]

Quite!