Should staff be able to sleep while at work?

RE: Should staff be able to sleep while at work?

David Mills — Tue, 04 Jun 2024 11:11:05 GMT

Makes Labour's handling of the Diane Abbot issue seem professional.

A great example of the clash between corporate management and coalface veterinary work. I would love to see what these assessments consist of (and cost) - oh you've got a bed with a fire safe mattress, a smoke alarm, fire extinguisher and fire exit. Tick. Next.

RE: Should staff be able to sleep while at work?

Yantha Smyth — Mon, 03 Jun 2024 22:41:21 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30966/should-staff-be-able-to-sleep-while-at-work/244817#244817"]If it's temporary, why are they removing beds and encouraging colleagues to whistle blow? [/quote]

Exactly. Which is why I reckon there has been an abrupt about turn and rapid back-pedalling on the back of outcry, including the BVU grievance

RE: Should staff be able to sleep while at work?

Clive Ansell — Mon, 03 Jun 2024 21:03:55 GMT

[quote userid="5083" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30966/should-staff-be-able-to-sleep-while-at-work/244802#244802"]They are now making new announcements making out that the napping bans were only ever intended to be very temporary while some reviews were taking place.[/quote]

Reviewing what, exactly?

If it's temporary, why are they removing beds and encouraging colleagues to whistle blow?

RE: Should staff be able to sleep while at work?

Clive Ansell — Mon, 03 Jun 2024 21:01:41 GMT

[quote userid="12876" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30966/should-staff-be-able-to-sleep-while-at-work/244814#244814"]a 14 he shift demands a break and what you do in that break should be up to you.[/quote]

How is it possible for a vet, or a nurse, to take a statuatory break during a 14 or 15 hour OOH shift when there is no other vet (or nurse) on duty to cover?

RE: Should staff be able to sleep while at work?

helen herinckx — Mon, 03 Jun 2024 16:38:20 GMT

We are talking about naps during your break - a 14 he shift demands a break and what you do in that break should be up to you. I work day shifts as well and often take a 20 min Power Nap after eatin my lunch. Resting is as essential a body function as going to the toilet

RE: Should staff be able to sleep while at work?

Yantha Smyth — Sat, 01 Jun 2024 18:36:47 GMT

They seem to have taken an about turn with it all in an attempt to save face. They are now making new announcements making out that the napping bans were only ever intended to be very temporary while some reviews were taking place. Doesn't ring true to me at all.

RE: Should staff be able to sleep while at work?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 31 May 2024 19:00:57 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30966/should-staff-be-able-to-sleep-while-at-work/244797#244797"]

So I went and had a look at the Vets Now job site. Whether what they advertise is true or a fair reflection of others is a fair assumption, I don't know.

At Vets Now we champion work/life balance and understand how important this is for our people. Working a fair share of weeknights, weekend days/nights (1:2) and bank holidays, you will work an average of 3 shifts per week for a full-time average 40 hours per week contract. With a salary up to £75,000.

If you are working 40 hours a week, so 3X15 hour shifts (plus an hour for lunch and a couple of other unpaid breaks) then I think it's very reasonable to expect you to be awake and working for that time. I'm sure if you ask the staff whether they would rather work 3 long shifts of 5 shorter ones - almost all would pick 3 shifts with 4 days off. I have a friend in the ambulance service who says the same - long nights are hard work, but lots more shorter nights are worse.

[/quote]

All very well in theory, and I get the argument that staff working ONLY 3 x 15 hous shifts a week should be working and not sleeping.

However, down on planet real world, it is often the case that vets who have worked all day and who are working the next day, step into the breach at the 11th hour to provide cover, because the clinics are not staffed. I've done this myself many time, but only on the basis I don't take the phones and get some sleep if I can. If that were denied I would decline the work.

What Vets-Now are wanting to implement is a blanket ban on sleeping, removal of beds from the clinics, and whistleblowing on colleagues who sleep.

I've had a email flyer today; out local OOH clinic has no vet tonight, or Saturday or Sunday night. Fluster Cuck sh1t show.

In any event, we are talking about staff getting their head down for a short sleep or power nap, when they can as long as the work is done, not bedding down for a full 8 hours sleep. What possible harm can there be in it?

If one of your employed staff inadvertantly fell asleep at work, would you discipline them ?

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30966/should-staff-be-able-to-sleep-while-at-work/244797#244797"]

David Mills said:
Certainly dressing it up as due to fire safety is a patronising piss take of the highest order given it has gone on for over 15 years.

Yes, I'd be interested to know the real reason.

[/quote]

Unless there is evidence of work not being done, or not being done properly, or clients and work being turned away because staff are asleep, then I cannot think of a valid reason.

I just don't buy the BS about H&S or fire regs at all. most/all clinics will be fitted with fire and smoke alarms.

More likely a corporate aggressive style bean counter management mentality that just resents the idea of folk being asleep while being paid to work.

I saw a similar argument when a corporate took over one of the independants I used to work for. They installed clocking in machines for nurses and reception staff, citing safety and fire regs as the reason and needing to know who was or was not in the building at any given time. It did not apply to vets and locums who did not have to clock in or out. Go figure! - guess vets or locums could just burn to death?

RE: Should staff be able to sleep while at work?

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 30 May 2024 23:24:06 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30966/should-staff-be-able-to-sleep-while-at-work/244795#244795"]

For 15 continuous hours?

We are already struggling to staff OOH clinics. The group I was working for in 2023 could not staff its OOH clinic despite offering locums £1200 per shift. Making the regime even harder by banning sleeping in quiet times during a 15 hour shift is unlikely to help resolve this.

[/quote]

So I went and had a look at the Vets Now job site. Whether what they advertise is true or a fair reflection of others is a fair assumption, I don't know.

I've said before how very unhappy I am with the entire concept of these OOH centres. I believe we should all do our own little bit of OOH work and not expect a few to do most of it. I believe these centres are far too expensive and distant and that compromises animal welfare. It's a situation that shouldn't have been allowed to happen, but there's no going back now.

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30966/should-staff-be-able-to-sleep-while-at-work/244795#244795"]Would it be acceptable for a staff member to sleep during a scheduled or statuatory break, lunchtime for example? [/quote]

You can do what you like during a lunch break, assuming there is someone else to cover the work.

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30966/should-staff-be-able-to-sleep-while-at-work/244795#244795"]Would a 15 hour night shift be a valid enough reason, assuming all of the work is done and patient care is not affected? [/quote]

No. In mixed practice doing our own OOH a 15 hour day is not entirely out of the ordinary, and we are back at work the next day. I started work at 8.30am on Thursday (yesterday) and I'm either 1st or 2nd on call until 6pm next Thursday (due to having a new grad, a weekend swap and a vet on holiday), so I'm typing this as someone who knows all too well what the coalface looks like.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30966/should-staff-be-able-to-sleep-while-at-work/244793#244793"]Certainly dressing it up as due to fire safety is a patronising piss take of the highest order given it has gone on for over 15 years. [/quote]

Yes, I'd be interested to know the real reason.

RE: Should staff be able to sleep while at work?

Clive Ansell — Thu, 30 May 2024 20:58:48 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30966/should-staff-be-able-to-sleep-while-at-work/244793#244793"]I think the shifts are still paid all the way through (15h or so) so beyond wtd requirements they can stipulate no sleeping as there are no non-paid breaks. [/quote]

When I used to work in OOH clinics, the only stipulation was that one could not leave the premises (Even for home visits, but that is another debate for another time). There was never any agreement whatsoever on breaks or being able to sleep or not. It was taken as read that we could all sleep where and when possible as long as work and patient care were not affected.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30966/should-staff-be-able-to-sleep-while-at-work/244793#244793"]Night vets are normally only them and a nurse so there wouldn't technically be cover whilst either is asleep.[/quote]

There would be 2 or 3 of us usually, and it could always be taken in turns. 1 could sleep 0000 to 0300 and the other 0300 - 0600 for example. We would always be able to answer the telephone of course.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30966/should-staff-be-able-to-sleep-while-at-work/244793#244793"]However there are often long periods of doing nothing with no or minimal stable inpatients do it's difficult to see the harm.[/quote]

It was rare to have cases that need continual monitoring, even with 2 hourly checks each of 2 staff members could get a 4 hour break splitting the workload. Often 0000 to 0600 would be quiet enough to get some sleep.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30966/should-staff-be-able-to-sleep-while-at-work/244793#244793"]There is an argument for no sleeping given an equivalent daytime shift wouldn't ordinarily allow it. [/quote]

The difference is the shift length. 15 hours is a long haul, and there has to be and needs to be provision in that to get some rest. I would only ever agree to that type of work on the basis I get to rest or sleep if I could. Of course, if very busy or many inpatients then it maynot be possible, but that is fine and is the nature of the work.

How do employers comply with night working hours regulations and the issue of statuatory breaks within 15 hour shifts?

[quote userid="2675" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30966/should-staff-be-able-to-sleep-while-at-work/244792#244792"]I don’t think anyone was saying sleeping when you should be working. This refers to quiet times when the emergencies have calmed down. [/quote]

Exactly that. being able to get some rest or sleep once the work is done, usually midnight onwards.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30966/should-staff-be-able-to-sleep-while-at-work/244791#244791"]I'd be pretty annoyed if I caught one of my staff taking a 'power nap' during paid working hours, without a very valid reason.[/quote]

Would a 15 hour night shift be a valid enough reason, assuming all of the work is done and patient care is not affected?

Would it be acceptable for a staff member to sleep during a scheduled or statuatory break, lunchtime for example?

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30966/should-staff-be-able-to-sleep-while-at-work/244791#244791"]So, no, if you chose to work a night shift at an OOH centre, then I think you should be awake and working. Lots of day jobs if nights don't suit you.[/quote]

For 15 continuous hours?

RE: Should staff be able to sleep while at work?

David Mills — Thu, 30 May 2024 14:33:24 GMT

I think the shifts are still paid all the way through (15h or so) so beyond wtd requirements they can stipulate no sleeping as there are no non-paid breaks.

Whether it is a good idea or not is a different story. Certainly it has suggested napping can improve efficiency and productivity in healthcare night workers but they would normally be part of a bigger team. Night vets are normally only them and a nurse so there wouldn't technically be cover whilst either is asleep.

There is an argument for no sleeping given an equivalent daytime shift wouldn't ordinarily allow it.

However there are often long periods of doing nothing with no or minimal stable inpatients do it's difficult to see the harm.

Certainly dressing it up as due to fire safety is a patronising piss take of the highest order given it has gone on for over 15 years.

RE: Should staff be able to sleep while at work?

Richard Carter — Thu, 30 May 2024 13:53:30 GMT

I don’t think anyone was saying sleeping when you should be working. This refers to quiet times when the emergencies have calmed down.
Yes it is well established in medical settings you are dangerous to your patients and colleagues if you tired. It also takes a toll working 12 hour plus shifts

RE: Should staff be able to sleep while at work?

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 29 May 2024 20:58:15 GMT

It's an interesting thought process, I'd be pretty annoyed if I caught one of my staff taking a 'power nap' during paid working hours, without a very valid reason. Off the top of my head either illness or up in the night doing calls, would be all I'd tolerate. You shouldn't be turning up for your shift tired. You are paid a premium to be working the shift. I wonder if there have been any issues with clients/practices/patients being delayed or harmed due to sleeping staff?

So, no, if you chose to work a night shift at an OOH centre, then I think you should be awake and working. Lots of day jobs if nights don't suit you.

RE: Should staff be able to sleep while at work?

Richard Carter — Wed, 29 May 2024 18:29:27 GMT

Of course. I was under the impression the 15-20 minute Power Nap was well established as a good thing for concentration and getting through a long shift