Should prisoners have the right to vote?

RE: Should prisoners have the right to vote?

Ben Walker — Sun, 09 Jun 2024 08:35:35 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30965/should-prisoners-have-the-right-to-vote/244861#244861"]There is no logical reason why we would take away so many other things, but let them vote.[/quote]

I don’t think this is true. You can disagree (as Evelyn does, which I absolutely respect), but calling the reasoning illogical is unfair.

The argument in full is thus:

1. Prisoners are still citizens despite their incarceration (note they can usually work, have correspondence, own property, they even have to pay tax).

2. Prisoners typically stop being incarcerated at some point. The median custodial sentence is just under two years, so most prisoners will spend less than a year incarcerated.

3. Voting isn’t a luxury and electoral offences are extremely rare. Voting rights therefore aren’t obviously connected to any aspect of penal policy and removing them is unlikely to have any impact on offending rates.

4. The electoral cycle isn’t connected to any aspect of sentencing or release. It is therefore arbitrary whether a prisoner gets to vote or not in an electoral cycle.

5. Summary:

Most of the prisoners incarcerated during an election will not remain incarcerated for the majority of the electoral cycle the vote pertains to.

They are citizens and we expect them to abide by society’s rules on release.

There is no obvious societal benefit to withholding their vote (none has been mentioned in this thread even amongst those who disagree).

Therefore, let them vote.

You are welcome to disagree and this is not an issue I campaign for or care deeply about, but I do not believe it is an illogical viewpoint.

RE: Should prisoners have the right to vote?

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 08 Jun 2024 23:15:06 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30965/should-prisoners-have-the-right-to-vote/244834#244834"]

I'd put it this way: why should convicted prisoners have the right to vote?

[/quote]

They shouldn't. It's one of those things taken away from them when they break the law of the land and are caught. There is no logical reason why we would take away so many other things, but let them vote.

RE: Should prisoners have the right to vote?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 08 Jun 2024 20:13:01 GMT

[quote userid="25265" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30965/should-prisoners-have-the-right-to-vote/244837#244837"]1. It acknowledges that they are still citizens. They have done wrong and are serving their sentence, but they are still part of our society. It is the humane thing to do.[/quote]

There I disagree. I suspect there is little point in discussing this.

RE: Should prisoners have the right to vote?

Ben Walker — Thu, 06 Jun 2024 08:53:10 GMT

[quote userid="25265" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30965/should-prisoners-have-the-right-to-vote/244837#244837"]Campaigning for tougher prison conditions and harsher sentencing is an easy vote winner despite the fact that all evidence suggests it does more harm than good.[/quote]

Great example of this in the Times today.

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/killers-to-get-tougher-sentences-as-tories-promise-overhaul-of-law-xw6mwdbsg

A headline article discusses a Conservative manifesto pledge to overhaul judge discretion on whether to include a minimum period of imprisonment after discharge from a hospital order. This comes off the back of a case where a chronic paranoid schizophrenic killed three people and seriously wounded more. Importantly, the prosecution accepted his diminished responsibility and their own expert consultants argued for a hospital order as the safest sentencing option for the community.

Read page 19 of the judge’s sentencing statement (the whole thing is worth a read):

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Calocane-sentencing-remarks.pdf

The option of a hybrid order is considered and ultimately decided against as it would mean parole officers and not clinicians would be doing community follow-up in the (very unlikely) event Calocane were ever discharged. The judge noted that parole officers would be less able to spot worsening mental health, and even if they did they wouldn’t be able to readmit him to a secure hospital. An indefinite hospital order would have permanent clinician follow-up likely for the rest of his life with detention if he appears to pose a threat after (again, his very unlikely) discharge.

I wouldn’t advocate for someone with an indefinite sentence having a right to vote, but it’s a timely proof of how distorted our discussions about prisoners and criminal sentencing can become.

RE: Should prisoners have the right to vote?

Ben Walker — Wed, 05 Jun 2024 21:20:25 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30965/should-prisoners-have-the-right-to-vote/244834#244834"]why should convicted prisoners have the right to vote?[/quote]

Easy both on a principled basis and a consequence basis:

1. It acknowledges that they are still citizens. They have done wrong and are serving their sentence, but they are still part of our society. It is the humane thing to do.

2. It’s really hard to argue for sensible penal reform. Campaigning for tougher prison conditions and harsher sentencing is an easy vote winner despite the fact that all evidence suggests it does more harm than good. By depriving those who actually experience the impact of these policies a voice we actually make society less safe.

RE: Should prisoners have the right to vote?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 05 Jun 2024 18:18:02 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30965/should-prisoners-have-the-right-to-vote/244787#244787"]that it is a huge waste of money to stuff people in appalling conditions where they are bored out of their minds and then develop a drug habit before being released into society to commit more crime. [/quote]

I quite agree.

But that doesn't have anything to do with voting.

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30965/should-prisoners-have-the-right-to-vote/244785#244785"]A laywer friend thinks the right to vote should be a basic human right, that should not be removed.[/quote]

I think your friend is wrong.

I'd put it this way: why should convicted prisoners have the right to vote?

RE: Should prisoners have the right to vote?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 28 May 2024 10:51:04 GMT

[quote userid="25265" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30965/should-prisoners-have-the-right-to-vote/244786#244786"]This seems strange to me. We don’t assess mental capacity for anyone else.[/quote]

Sure ... it was just a kneejerk observation that a serial killer may not have much to add to the national debate! But as you say, they are not alone in that.

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30965/should-prisoners-have-the-right-to-vote/244785#244785"]Maybe to remove and deprive them of the rights, privileges and freedoms we all enjoy in a free(ish) society, as part of their punishment?[/quote]

Reading the interview with Charlie Taylor made me think (if you can access this, it is interesting: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/uk/crime/article/times-crime-justice-commission-charlie-taylor-chief-inspector-prisons-lzxzs5vl5)

The biggest take home point from that article being that it is a huge waste of money to stuff people in appalling conditions where they are bored out of their minds and then develop a drug habit before being released into society to commit more crime.

I'm inclined to agree. Prison is punishment enough as it is. No need to remove any further freedoms, making them feel more of an outcast and less likely to rehabilitate.

RE: Should prisoners have the right to vote?

Ben Walker — Tue, 28 May 2024 09:49:23 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30965/should-prisoners-have-the-right-to-vote/244782#244782"]So I think most should be allowed to vote, and the question of whether they are allowed to or not should be more about mental capacity[/quote]

This seems strange to me. We don’t assess mental capacity for anyone else.

I don’t feel strongly because, as you say, it just doesn’t feel like that big a deal. It’s not like voting is a real luxury so withholding it seems petty.

And having the right to vote doesn’t mean the prison becomes a hotbed of new constituents, nor does it require new polling stations. We could just allow any already registered prisoners to use their existing postal vote.

RE: Should prisoners have the right to vote?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 28 May 2024 08:59:33 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30965/should-prisoners-have-the-right-to-vote/244782#244782"]My first thought was 'what difference does it make' - by which I mean UK prison population is around 100K. Say on average, 70% of people vote. So likely max vote from imprisoned population 70K, out of a voting population of 47.07M (of which, say, 33M actually vote). It's not likely to swing it either way. [/quote]

That was my first thought too. I guess the numbers are too small for any political party to be really interested.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30965/should-prisoners-have-the-right-to-vote/244782#244782"]Does it serve any other purpose to withhold the vote from prisoners? I cant think of one.[/quote]

Maybe to remove and deprive them of the rights, privileges and freedoms we all enjoy in a free(ish) society, as part of their punishment?

A laywer friend thinks the right to vote should be a basic human right, that should not be removed. Not sure I agree though.

RE: Should prisoners have the right to vote?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 28 May 2024 08:53:26 GMT

[quote userid="25265" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30965/should-prisoners-have-the-right-to-vote/244781#244781"]Am I right to assume you are referring to convicted prisoners here? Are you including unsentenced prisoners? People in prison for civil offences?[/quote]

Sorry, yes. Only prisoners convicted of a crime and given a sentence, incluing civil offences.

RE: Should prisoners have the right to vote?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 28 May 2024 07:41:10 GMT

My first thought was 'what difference does it make' - by which I mean UK prison population is around 100K. Say on average, 70% of people vote. So likely max vote from imprisoned population 70K, out of a voting population of 47.07M (of which, say, 33M actually vote). It's not likely to swing it either way.

Does it serve any other purpose to withhold the vote from prisoners? I cant think of one. Would someone who is banged up in prison give a damn. I suspect most probably not. Reading the interview with Charlie Taylor the other day, I suspect many of them are more concerned about when their next consignment of drugs are due.

Conversely, does allowing prisoners the vote offer some small glimmer of a hope of getting them re-engaged with society?

So I think most should be allowed to vote, and the question of whether they are allowed to or not should be more about mental capacity. If you're a serial killer, you clearly have something wrong upstairs and your vote is not worthwhile in deciding the future direction of the country.

So I ticked In some cases, but not others (but would have preferred 'in most cases').

Then again, assessing who should not be allowed to vote would cost money, and I dont want to spend any money on what I think would be a pointless exercise.

So yes. Always!

RE: Should prisoners have the right to vote?

Ben Walker — Mon, 27 May 2024 21:07:20 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30965/should-prisoners-have-the-right-to-vote"]Should prisoners have a right to vote?[/quote]

Am I right to assume you are referring to convicted prisoners here? Are you including unsentenced prisoners? People in prison for civil offences?

My view is that unconvicted, unsentenced, or people in prison for civil offences should all have a vote. I don’t object to the idea of convicted prisoners who have sentences shorter than 4 years having voting rights, too. But I don’t feel strongly about the issue.

RE: Should prisoners have the right to vote?

cairncross — Mon, 27 May 2024 19:24:19 GMT

i dont think civil servants should have the vote , think there is a huge conflict of interest there .