How can animal therapists build a better relationship with their local vet?

RE: How can animal therapists build a better relationship with their local vet?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 14 Apr 2024 17:44:13 GMT

[quote userid="19228" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30928/how-can-animal-therapists-build-a-better-relationship-with-their-local-vet/244300#244300"] now is 3-4 times weekly request.[/quote]

Interesting. That's an awful lot. Is it just one or two "therapists" all the time?

I used to have a local guy who did "laying on of hands". He was no problem, never asked me for a "referral". People would go to him without asking me. The interesting thing is, he was a client and quite a good one.

RE: How can animal therapists build a better relationship with their local vet?

cairncross — Thu, 11 Apr 2024 21:00:22 GMT

usually chose point 2 which elicits a response justifying points 1,3 or 4 . concern is that what was in the past a once in a blue moon exchange now is 3-4 times weekly request.

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 10 Apr 2024 22:28:04 GMT

[quote userid="19228" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30928/iaat-international-association-of-animal-therapists/244291#244291"]then an email arrives from an offended provider almost always with the but we are insured line { the we have solicitors who will pass the liability to you line }[/quote]

Choice of responses:

1. Ignore it (easy with email).

2. Explain again like you did to Mrs. A.

3. "So what?" politely phrased.

4. "Get lost" politely phrased.

When the "therapist" is doing something illegally, if necessary remind them that for a veterinary surgeon it's serious professional misconduct to collaborate with an unqualified operator. I did this once with a "back man" who wanted me to supply some "bute" for a horse I'd never seen, because "he liked them to be relaxed before he began his manipulation". I'm sure he just went off and got some from elsewhere.

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

cairncross — Wed, 10 Apr 2024 20:35:50 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30928/iaat-international-association-of-animal-therapists/244289#244289"]I do see what you're getting at. Couldn't you say (assuming you wish to keep Mrs. Aythornthwaite as a client) "Oh Mrs. A., this is outside legislation, it's not an act of veterinary surgery, it doesn't need a signature from me. That would imply I'm taking responsibility for anything that goes wrong! But I have no objection to your having this done, and thank you for having the courtesy to ask me".[/quote]

essentially this is my speech except in colloquial ulster scots , it still causes offence often then an email arrives from an offended provider almost always with the but we are insured line { the we have solicitors who will pass the liability to you line }

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 10 Apr 2024 19:35:06 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30928/iaat-international-association-of-animal-therapists/244276#244276"]

Anthony Dennison said:
I used to be very sceptical of laser therapy, then had some on my finger post arthroplasty and it made a massive difference.

OK. It's treatment.

A qualified physiotherapist could do it to one of your patients if you requested them to do so. Call that referral if you like.

[/quote]

It was done by the qualified vet physio that was working for us at the time. We used to have our own hydro centre with a pool, underwater treadmill and K laser, with a qualified team, but it was losing so much money a month we had to make the difficult decision to close it.

Now we have a new local centre that has opened, single person team who is very qualified that we have been working quite closely with.

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 10 Apr 2024 18:20:28 GMT

[quote userid="25265" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30928/iaat-international-association-of-animal-therapists/244277#244277"]

Evelyn Barbour-Hill said:
A qualified physiotherapist could do it to one of your patients if you requested them to do so. Call that referral if you like.

Is this definitely the case? The Veterinary Surgeons (Exemptions) Order 2015 allows physiotherapy provided it is prescribed by a vet, but the RCVS considers physiotherapy to encompass manipulative treatments only.

[/quote]

Hmm, a good point. I don't know. In my local (human) hospital the laser stuff is done by the physiotherapy department. Of course I realise that's not quite the same. Were the RCVS quite au fait with what was done by the modern physiotherapist? Ultrasound treatment, for instance.

[quote userid="19228" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30928/iaat-international-association-of-animal-therapists/244279#244279"]I don't sign them , that's not a simple solution though , it results in offence , then workload as a history request comes in to send the history to another vets who will sign the form.[/quote]

I do see what you're getting at. Couldn't you say (assuming you wish to keep Mrs. Aythornthwaite as a client) "Oh Mrs. A., this is outside legislation, it's not an act of veterinary surgery, it doesn't need a signature from me. That would imply I'm taking responsibility for anything that goes wrong! But I have no objection to your having this done, and thank you for having the courtesy to ask me".

Or, according to what Mrs. A wanted "Oh Mrs. A, thank you for asking my permission, and you weren't to know, but that would be illegal because it's an act of veterinary surgery. I'll be glad to try to find a veterinary surgeon who does this stuff".

Qualified physiotherapists working in a professional manner are no problem. The problem is all the other dubious "therapists", Reiki practitioners, "back men", Flower Remedy experts and all the rest of them. The problem is not whether their therapies actually work. The problem is that "therapy" is not a different class of treatment outside the Veterinary Surgeons Act . "Therapy" is synonymous with "treatment". Everything a veterinary surgeon does is therapy (until it comes to euthanasia, I grant you).

I'm sorry if this causes offence, but I think "Therapist" has been invented, like "Rodentologist", as a term that people who believe (possibly rightly) their treatments do some good can give themselves exemption from the Veterinary Surgeons Act.

[quote userid="19228" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30928/iaat-international-association-of-animal-therapists/244280#244280"]I knew who was the suitable person for eyes or joints etc in whichever practise , I could pick up the phone and ask to speak to Mr X or Ms Y about rovers Heart case etc . Now specialist provision is a very movable feast who works where and when and what proceedure they carry out changes almost weekly , the costs I ave no idea what to prepare clients for . You don't get to speak to the vet you are refering to before or after , their is a referral form carefully crafted to keep responsibility away from the referral centre and to automate the insurance admin . [/quote]

Yes, and this is what I was finding some years ago while still in general practice.

(However I assure you that there is at least one referral practice where you definitely speak to the vet whenever you want, and where the question of insurance is not even raised unless the client raises it. )

[quote userid="19228" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30928/iaat-international-association-of-animal-therapists/244280#244280"]

The most recent vet referral form I was presented with asked me to sign off who the pet parents were ,

[/quote]

Words fail me

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

cairncross — Wed, 10 Apr 2024 06:21:35 GMT

Sorry it was not a more positive and solution producing response. If it is any consolation the referral process within veterinary has become essentially the same hazard.

The local relationship did exist for the first 2 decades of my vet career , I knew who was the suitable person for eyes or joints etc in whichever practise , I could pick up the phone and ask to speak to Mr X or Ms Y about rovers Heart case etc . Now specialist provision is a very movable feast who works where and when and what proceedure they carry out changes almost weekly , the costs I ave no idea what to prepare clients for . You don't get to speak to the vet you are refering to before or after , their is a referral form carefully crafted to keep responsibility away from the referral centre and to automate the insurance admin .

The most recent vet referral form I was presented with asked me to sign off who the pet parents were , that would be a black lab and a farm collie unknown I guess ? Legally pets have owners I was signing a professional document ?

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

cairncross — Wed, 10 Apr 2024 06:13:59 GMT

I don't sign them , that's not a simple solution though , it results in offence , then workload as a history request comes in to send the history to another vets who will sign the form. Ok we are overrun so one case client less is good but not in these circumstances. The frequency of request is rising significantly

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

Ben Walker — Tue, 09 Apr 2024 22:02:06 GMT

Sorry for the tangent Kat McFarlane. I think part of the issue when I was in general practice is that I didn’t understand exactly where the boundaries were, so I ended up being quite cautious about prescribing physiotherapy.

A closer working relationship would have really helped, and phone updates or popping by would have been the best way to establish that. However, I’m also aware I had a lighter workload 5-10 years ago than most vets do now. That might be seen as a burden nowadays.

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

Ben Walker — Tue, 09 Apr 2024 21:55:04 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30928/iaat-international-association-of-animal-therapists/244276#244276"]A qualified physiotherapist could do it to one of your patients if you requested them to do so. Call that referral if you like.[/quote]

On the IAAT website, for example, laser therapy is listed under their maintenance animal therapies page, but that would only apply to healthy animals and not those recovering from surgery or needing treatment for an illness.

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30928/iaat-international-association-of-animal-therapists/244276#244276"]If I knew anything about it (actually, I do a bit, but many veterinay surgeons possibly don't) I might consider delegating it to someone to do under my supervision.[/quote]

Am I right in thinking that’s all we can do for laser therapy in post-operative patients or those with an illness? (Or refer to a MRCVS who has the relevant expertise.)

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 09 Apr 2024 19:35:01 GMT

[quote userid="11308" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30928/iaat-international-association-of-animal-therapists/244267#244267"]I used to be very sceptical of laser therapy, then had some on my finger post arthroplasty and it made a massive difference.[/quote]

OK. It's treatment.

A qualified physiotherapist could do it to one of your patients if you requested them to do so. Call that referral if you like.

Anyone else doing it is probably doing so illegally. I'm not saying I would object if one of my clients wanted it, but I certainly wouldn't "refer" them. If I knew anything about it (actually, I do a bit, but many veterinay surgeons possibly don't) I might consider delegating it to someone to do under my supervision.

The Veterinary Surgeons Act (which is nowhere near as "outdated" as some maintain) is pretty clear.. Only veterinary surgeons can do veterinary medicine and surgery. Some things may be delegated. Delegation is not referral.

Cairncross, the simple answer to your problem is to stop signing these "referral" forms.

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 08 Apr 2024 11:58:26 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30928/iaat-international-association-of-animal-therapists/244260#244260"]When you throw in Reiki, laser and Zoopharmacognosy then I have stopped listening and discounted the resource.[/quote]

I used to be very sceptical of laser therapy, then had some on my finger post arthroplasty and it made a massive difference. I have no scar there either, compared to all the other previous surgeries I've had with scars still present (finger was the most recent, 2 years ago).

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

Kat McFarlane — Mon, 08 Apr 2024 10:59:21 GMT

Thank you - it is really useful to understand from the perspective of vets.

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

cairncross — Mon, 08 Apr 2024 06:38:25 GMT

i guess most of us come across therapists when we are asked to sign a refferal form. This presents difficulty because we are being asked in our professional capacity and therefore putting our legal status as a vet on the line to sign something which actually we know very little or absolutely nothing about. is it appropriate for the animal , has it benefits are there risks , i simply dont know as i have had no training qualification or experience with the therapy offered. Then there is the time required to fill many of these forms is not simply 30 seconds to grab a pen and put a signature at the bottom we need to pull up records read not only what we as an individual know of the case but also what others who have seen the case have done . We do this every day for many cases a quick read down the history and match that to what we are seeing in front of us perhaps check back again in teh consult when something comes up a dynamic assessment of what we need to know and what is possibly irrelivant to the current situation in our own field of knowledge. putting this on record in written form to pass to another is different we dont know what their experience knowledge or requirements are so much more has to go down .i guess this would really require a couple of hours of undivided attention , i dont have this ever and certainly clients do not expect to pay . we get a few of these requests per week i could try and source a locum and set aside 1 day per week to fill the forms and perhaps educate myself about the therapies who would pay the locum fee it would amount to 25 k per year in costs .

often we get the but we are insured line whcih is not at all reassuring . insurance companies will not want to be liable when a claim comes in so will have a team of lawers eager to find someone eles eto blame , that will be me .each time i can see myself in the dock being asked and what was your qualification training and experience of massage therapy when you in your professional opinion judged it appropriate for FIDO? NONE is the truth and the whole truth.

often this approach causes offence in owner and or therpist and often we lose a client a better solution would be good but it really needs to involve zero time as we do not have any and zero expense as few owners expect to pay .

sorry for my difficult grammar i am typing this whilst juggling other things as always

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 07 Apr 2024 23:32:57 GMT

[quote userid="29823" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30928/iaat-international-association-of-animal-therapists"] breaking down barriers [/quote]

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30928/iaat-international-association-of-animal-therapists/244260#244260"] I recognise physiotherapy as a medical specialism, and I realise it has an evidence base behind it. [/quote]

And legally a qualified physiotherapist may treat an animal by physiotherapy at the request of a veterinary surgeon. As every equine, and almost every small-animal, veterinary surgeon knows.

So no problem there. No barriers to break down.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30928/iaat-international-association-of-animal-therapists/244260#244260"]We then have these various other 'quack' treatments that you have also seemed to have embraced that make me question everything that the body stands for. The equine 'back man/lady' who the owners think are gods and never do much in my experience. The evidence base for osteopathy/massage very limited and often questioned in human spheres. When you throw in Reiki, laser and Zoopharmacognosy then I have stopped listening and discounted the resource.[/quote]

Quite so. And whether these things work or not they come under the definition of acts of veterinary surgery. People who practise them on animals are on very shaky legal ground.

Sometimes barriers are good things.

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

Kat McFarlane — Sun, 07 Apr 2024 21:17:29 GMT

Thank you Michael - I appreciate you taking the time to comment with your experiences.

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 07 Apr 2024 21:09:21 GMT

Firstly, I think it's great that you have come on here to engage with vets. I think there is a combination of misunderstanding over what can be offered and concern when we 'refer' to such paraprofessionals any consequences that can bounce back on us.

I think my biggest problem is scepticism. I recognise physiotherapy as a medical specialism, and I realise it has an evidence base behind it. In my personal experience of seeing 4x physios in my life, not one made the slightest bit of difference to my recovery.

I also completely agree that hydrotherapy can help some animals recover. Whether that helps over and above swimming in a lake in the summer is debatable, but it's safe and a useful therapy.

We then have these various other 'quack' treatments that you have also seemed to have embraced that make me question everything that the body stands for. The equine 'back man/lady' who the owners think are gods and never do much in my experience. The evidence base for osteopathy/massage very limited and often questioned in human spheres. When you throw in Reiki, laser and Zoopharmacognosy then I have stopped listening and discounted the resource.

Not for me, I'm afraid.

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

Kat McFarlane — Sun, 07 Apr 2024 19:35:52 GMT

I am not sure what is needed for a Podcast - but I am sure it would create an interesting conversation. We are a long way off best practice for vets and therapists collaborating effectively. Ultimately we all have the animals welfare and recovery as the end result.

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 07 Apr 2024 14:34:56 GMT

Or a podcast lol no seriously Kat McFarlane I am returning to podcasting after a year of bad health. Ill b happy to have a chat (the topic is interesting. We vets often complain about other people doing therapy but are too busy to really go into things we don’t want others to do). Have a look in archive in my site to see how I conducted my interviews in 2021-2022 or in the free CPD from the link below. If Arlo has a better idea, Im happy to step aside.

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

Kat McFarlane — Sun, 07 Apr 2024 12:42:33 GMT

We would be very appreciative of any collaboration. I am sure it also works the other way - how can therapists work best with vets from the vets perspective.

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

Alasdair Hotston Moore — Sun, 07 Apr 2024 12:28:49 GMT

Arlo Guthrie maybe we could a video for/with Kat?

RE: IAAT (International Association of Animal Therapists)

Francisco Gomez — Sat, 06 Apr 2024 18:49:29 GMT

Hi. Thanks for showing your hand in the hope to collaborate with the profession. I don't think people are not answering because they aren't interested. I think its because they're drowning in work.