Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Arlo Guthrie — Sun, 18 Aug 2024 19:05:02 GMT

podenka No, you are wrong, I have not taken a stance, because I do not have a stance to take on this. I have no idea how truthful either party is being. Probably both sides are spinning things to suit their own agenda.

But that aside, I spoke to BVU, and then took their allegations and asked VetPartners for a response, which I shared.

You say that BVU gave me much more of their view. That is not correct. The BVU made three accusations which I put to Vetpartners.

The difference in the number of words used to report the allegations was simply because Vetpartners was more verbose in its response than I was in summarising the accusations against the company.

That doesnt make the article biased. It was a 100% impartial report of the accusations made by the BVU and the response to them.

By the way. For the record, the Guardian is very far from balanced in its reporting.

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

podenka — Sun, 18 Aug 2024 13:52:02 GMT

I did draw your attention Arlo however you chose to take a stance. You have given nearly half of space to Vet Partners response and a few lines only to BVU which, I know, gave you much more of their view. The strike is extended, the CEO of VP is repating the same reply to everyone, calls negotiation positions ‚demands’ while more seriously taken UK-wide media present much more balanced views on the matter https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/article/2024/aug/18/vets-extend-strike-in-first-industrial-action-to-hit-britains-pet-care-sector

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Rob Loxley — Fri, 02 Aug 2024 07:20:41 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245197#245197"]I'm not sure I quite understand what is going on ... in that there has been a huge increase in the size of the market since the pandemic, and the usual thing I hear is too much work, rather than too little, and yet redundancies, recruitment freezes etc etc. Why? Is it the debt taken on when acquiring practices or investing in top end equipment which is now coming home to roost, or what? [/quote]

Yes I think if you are highly leveraged acquisitive company, increases in borrowing costs over recent years will really make a pinch; likewise that £10m referral hospital needs to pay for itself. Other general inflationary business costs too.
If you're owned by private equity, the bottom line is king and there seems much more ruthlessness in maintaining this, even if it doesn't seem to have a logical longterm view behind it at times?

There hasn't been the growth in workforce to support the increased size of the pet population and the increasing demands of pet owners, plus all the increasing demands of regulations, flexible working etc. Those working are frequently tired to burnt-out.

Essentially, fees charged and employment costs paid are the biggest levers to pull when looking at the bottom line. Prices are ramped; given that salaries are 50%+ of any vet business' costs, there is also an immediate focus there on controlling costs - recruitment freezes, redundancies (now you have poorly performing clinics or underutilised referral centres), ongoing significantly below inflationary wage increases (except all those on NMW).

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 02 Aug 2024 06:49:13 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245173#245173"]Staff I know at multiple practices owed by 2 corporate's are under increased pressure; staff shortages, further redundancies despite being short staffed already, reduction in hours, a ban on overtime being paid, continually over booked and overworked, taking on more new clients when they are unable to service the ones they already have, not getting statutory breaks, an increase in staff on long term sick leave, inability to recruit and retain staff, Folk will only take so much before they break.[/quote]

I'm not sure I quite understand what is going on ... in that there has been a huge increase in the size of the market since the pandemic, and the usual thing I hear is too much work, rather than too little, and yet redundancies, recruitment freezes etc etc. Why? Is it the debt taken on when acquiring practices or investing in top end equipment which is now coming home to roost, or what?

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

cairncross — Thu, 01 Aug 2024 21:37:38 GMT

branch closures, no overtime no locums covering holidays reduced hours happening all around us . pushing workload our direction multiple cases which cant wait as business owner i should be rubbing my hands but its not good its impacting my staff impacting me impacting my long term clients affecting the quality of service we are providing . do we turn away dire welfare cases ? anyone i know who has closed their books have eventually closed.

redundancies and no overtime mean less consults less sales fewer work ups surgical procedures fewer referrals to your high end centre what is the buisiness model ?. buy a long established multigenerational buisiness for millions , within a year divest of its farm equine ooh and tb testing work which made up 65 percent of income reduce small animal offering to a few days per week and now that 1 of the 2.5 remaining vets is injured and another is taking summer hols dont open some weeks at all i guess actually burning the money isnt allowed under some environmental law or other nowadays ?

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Clive Ansell — Wed, 31 Jul 2024 11:50:14 GMT

https://www.valleyvets.net/industrial-action

First strike is over, but a second one is planned for August, so I guess no headway has been made?

I wonder if it is a sign of things to come though?

Staff I know at multiple practices owed by 2 corporate's are under increased pressure; staff shortages, further redundancies despite being short staffed already, reduction in hours, a ban on overtime being paid, continually over booked and overworked, taking on more new clients when they are unable to service the ones they already have, not getting statutory breaks, an increase in staff on long term sick leave, inability to recruit and retain staff, Folk will only take so much before they break.

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Peter Faulkner — Wed, 31 Jul 2024 10:51:43 GMT

Good lord. Never thought I'd see this in my lifetime.

Good luck to them.

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 18 Jul 2024 13:33:53 GMT

podenka Thank you again for drawing my attention to the strike story! You might be interested in the latest episode.

https://www.vetsurgeon.org/b/veterinary-news/posts/vets-begin-strike-action-at-south-wales-practice

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Martin Hamilton — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 16:57:50 GMT

It's also not that far off from what many new grad vets are being offered (from a quick browse of Vet Record jobs - sorry Arlo, larger sample size there!).

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 10:21:08 GMT

[quote userid="12930" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245041#245041"]Or perhaps there are genuinely at least 54 union members in a veterinary clinic of approximately 63 staff. Not impossible, but highly implausible.[/quote]

It's very possible.

I used to locum for a practice where all of the nurses and reception staff belonged to the TGW union (later became unite and pre BVU days), 7 out of 7 or 100%. The were a militant lot and seemed to fuel and egg on one another to join. They were always in dispute about trivial things.

The practice was a branch allied to one other larger practice, and was taken over by a corporate in 2017 who failed to implement their new T&C's to the existing staff despite ongoing battles.

sadly, it was closed during the pandemic in 2020 and never reopened. Seems like the corporate overlords used Covid as springboard to close it down and get rid of the staff through redundancies.

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 10:09:53 GMT

It's impossible to say or speculate.

The practice has 5 branches, including a hospital and a night service, and there are 63 staff listed on their website, so could be more if not up to date.

Maybe numbers are rounded up or down and are not accurate? who knows?

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Beats — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 10:02:01 GMT

wow. I stand corrected and amazed.

[quote userid="4181" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245046#245046"]The agreement between the British Veterinary Union (BVU) in Unite and Valley Vets, which has sites in Caerphilly, Ystrad Mynach and Pentyrch, plus two in Cardiff, covers around 120 workers.[/quote]

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Rob Loxley — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 09:59:44 GMT

Unite press release:

The agreement between the British Veterinary Union (BVU) in Unite and Valley Vets, which has sites in Caerphilly, Ystrad Mynach and Pentyrch, plus two in Cardiff, covers around 120 workers.

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Beats — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 09:41:55 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245042#245042"]I take it to mean that 93% of BVU members within the practice voted and 7% did not, and of those 94% voted for strike action.[/quote]

So you think that is an accurate statement? Seemed highly implausible to me, albeit not impossible.

That would mean a minimum of 54 union members to give those figures?

50/54 turning out = 93% to nearest whole %; 47/50 voting choose strike = 94%

55, 56, 57 or 58 union members within a workforce of approx 63 could also give those figures and them be accurate.

Assuming there is not such a high union membership - which seems highly implausible - then the quoted figures must be incorrect.

The most likely mistake would be that they are reversed, giving a most likely figure of 16 union members (assuming the lowest membership number that could achieve those percentages). Other errors in rounding and other mathematical inaccuracies are of course possible.

Or am I missing something?

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 08:56:27 GMT

[quote userid="8687" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245035#245035"]Please look at Valley Vets posts in media, there will be no ill-effect on patient welfare and emergency cover will be in place. Forced to strike vets/nurses/support staff are preparing for action the same way NHS does, within allowances of Code of Conduct.[/quote]

I have.

Do you think they should go on strike, or look for alternative ways to resolve their differences?

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 08:52:56 GMT

[quote userid="12930" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245041#245041"]In vet times I'm not sure the report can be taken as accurate info unless someone can explain to silly me how you get 94% voting strike action on a 93% turnout? [/quote]

I take it to mean that 93% of BVU members within the practice voted and 7% did not, and of those 94% voted for strike action.

What we don't is how many BVU members and what % of staff there are BVU members, and proportion of BVU members that are veterinary surgeons, nurses or lower paid lay staff?

From

"Its statement claimed in-work poverty is “rife at Valley Vets, with 80% of support staff regularly having to borrow money to meet their basic living needs, and 5% reporting use of food banks"

I would guess many are lower paid staff?

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Beats — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 06:35:30 GMT

In vet times I'm not sure the report can be taken as accurate info unless someone can explain to silly me how you get 94% voting strike action on a 93% turnout? I'm assuming those numbers are meant to be the other way round, if accurate at all, indicating 16 union members, 15 of whom voted and 14 of whom voted to strike? 63 staff listed on website indicating perhaps 78% of staff have not voted to strike?

Or perhaps there are genuinely at least 54 union members in a veterinary clinic of approximately 63 staff. Not impossible, but highly implausible.

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

cairncross — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 06:33:05 GMT

also fairly impossible to own a pet and take it to the vet on that sort of income.

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 05 Jul 2024 12:44:20 GMT

podenka

[quote userid="8687" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245036#245036"]The way you are treating my posts you may as well say everyone is posting anectodes, it is demeaning and unfair and you keep at it, still.[/quote]

The difference between other people posting opinions and this discussion we are having here is that you are very specifically criticising me for not reporting something, the suggestion being that I should.

That's fine, but the problem I have is that you are asking that without providing evidence (with the exception of the strike), just anecdote and anonymous comments on other websites. There's nothing I can do with that! It's just anecdote (that is not meant to be demeaning, it's just that there is nothing I can do with it). If you have a story - ie facts - but don't want to post it in a forum, BY ALL MEANS email me. I have given you my email address, and I will look into it.

[quote userid="8687" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245036#245036"]I am glad that I provided you with information you were not aware of but my initial question was and still stands: why, if everywhere is full of this first in veterinary history situation (Valley Vets action is going on now for about 2 months and both recognition of union and possible strike action), you, a journalist, even if not investigative, are even not aware of it.[/quote]

I missed it.

Are you happy now, or would you like me to throw myself off a bridge?

In my defence, the vote for industrial action only happened last week. And whilst you say it is 'everywhere', I think that is overstating the case somewhat.

There have been a couple of fleeting news stories in Vet Times which I missed, one of them only two days ago.

I don't see any other news reporting of it. None in Vet Practice news, for example: https://www.veterinary-practice.com/news.

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

podenka — Fri, 05 Jul 2024 09:42:03 GMT

Arlo,

When you read everything in links I provided - there is highlighted stuff somewhere below which answers your question why I posted it. I know about sickness policies from employees of various companies, obviously I will not divulge the names here. In some of them I worked/work myself and therefore I am well versed in both sickness policy, triggers and wellbeing/disability support. Again, I am not allowed to make public statements due to media policies.

The way you are treating my posts you may as well say everyone is posting anectodes, it is demeaning and unfair and you keep at it, still.

I am glad that I provided you with information you were not aware of but my initial question was and still stands: why, if everywhere is full of this first in veterinary history situation (Valley Vets action is going on now for about 2 months and both recognition of union and possible strike action), you, a journalist, even if not investigative, are even not aware of it.

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

podenka — Fri, 05 Jul 2024 09:25:51 GMT

Please look at Valley Vets posts in media, there will be no ill-effect on patient welfare and emergency cover will be in place. Forced to strike vets/nurses/support staff are preparing for action the same way NHS does, within allowances of Code of Conduct.

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Clive Ansell — Thu, 04 Jul 2024 14:38:58 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245027#245027"]

podenka said:
www.vettimes.co.uk/.../quote]

That is very interesting, thank you. First strike action. I had missed that one. It is worthy of a story, and I will write one.

[/quote]

New one on me too.

I wonder how it will work? will all the staff strike or just some? will they still provide emergency cover?

There could be animal welfare implications, so I wonder how it squares with the RCVS and with our professional obligation to provide 24/7 cover to our registered clients?

Interesting times.

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 04 Jul 2024 13:32:28 GMT

podenka I'm not personally offended, and I am not nitpicking! You made lots of claims and none of them were supported with evidence, which makes them anecdotal. That's not nitpicking, it's just a fact!

[quote userid="8687" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245024#245024"]It seems that I am not the only person that noticed steering away from corporate issues - very balanced posts by Michael just underneath)[/quote]

As I say, I am not steering away from corporate issues. I just happen to think there are a lot of other issues too.

[quote userid="8687" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245024#245024"]At this point I feel that you are reading my responses only with bias to prove me wrong[/quote]

I hate to say it, but no, I am not trying to prove you wrong at all. I am a bit frustrated, because you have a go at me for not reporting something and then give me a whole load of unsupported anecdote which I can't do anything with.

But thank you for now sharing those posts, this is tangible, useful stuff I can look at and act on. First comments below.

[quote userid="8687" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245024#245024"]www.bva.co.uk/.../quote][/quote]

I reported on this here: https://www.vetsurgeon.org/b/veterinary-news/posts/bva-reports-that-discrimination-is-still-rife-in-the-profession

[quote userid="8687" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245024#245024"]www.vettimes.co.uk/.../quote][/quote]

That is very interesting, thank you. First strike action. I had missed that one. It is worthy of a story, and I will write one.

[quote userid="8687" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245024#245024"]bvu.org.uk/.../quote][/quote]

I'm a little bit skeptical about this. There is not much info. Not really clear the level of stress. Isn't stress something we all suffer to some degree and it is not always a bad thing.

[quote userid="8687" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245024#245024"]uk.indeed.com/.../what-is-ivc-evidensia-sick-leave-policy-how-many-sick-leave-days-do-you-get-per-year[/quote]

I cant do anything with anonymous comments posted online....

[quote userid="8687" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245024#245024"]www.cvsukltd.co.uk/.../ pay: Our new exceptional,weeks full pay for colleagues.[/quote]

I don't understand the reason for sharing this link.

[quote userid="8687" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245024#245024"]www.iom-world.org/.../quote][/quote]

I don't understand the reason for sharing this link.

[quote userid="8687" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245024#245024"]www.breakroom.cc/.../quote][/quote]

This is again an anonymous voting website, so it really doesnt help journalistically.

[quote userid="8687" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245024#245024"]www.acas.org.uk/absence-trigger-points discrimination,to action from their employer.[/quote]

That's a helpful explanation of absence trigger points, thank you.

[quote userid="8687" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245024#245024"]www.hr-inform.co.uk/.../quote][/quote]

As is that, although it doesnt support your claims

[quote userid="8687" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245024#245024"]just wanted to share my opinions. I truly value vetsurgeon.org and thought it would benefit from wider points of view.[/quote]

podenka I think we are talking at cross purposes. As far as I am concerned, you are very welcome to share your opinions and the site does benefit from wider points of view.

I am not in any way against discussing corporate issues, and nor am I trying to prove you wrong.

I think the reason for the misunderstanding between us is that you didnt realise that I cannot report stories based on unsubstantiated opinions or accusations made in the forum. I need facts, so when I call you out on that, it is not because I am offended or trying to prove you wrong, it is because if you want me to write a story, I need facts, not opinions.

A case in point is the strike. Now you have shared the fact, I have somewhere to start!

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

podenka — Thu, 04 Jul 2024 12:45:22 GMT

I am sorry Arlo but only serious point you are making here is that you are still personally offended and nitpicking points from my response to lauch at them while omitting others which you have nothing to say about.

There is a few links for you as I do feel called out about public domain, did not take me long to find out these. They do prove previously made points regarding discrimination, stress at work reasons, length of annual leave in some corporates (not every one of them is happily posting figures) and about trigger points and how they can be discriminatory.

It seems that I am not the only person that noticed steering away from corporate issues - very balanced posts by Michael just underneath). At this point I feel that you are reading my responses only with bias to prove me wrong so I am leaving this conversation.

I am sorry for aggravating you, it was not my aim in any way, just wanted to share my opinions. I truly value vetsurgeon.org and thought it would benefit from wider points of view.

https://www.bva.co.uk/media/2991/bva-report-on-discrimination-in-the-veterinary-profession.pdf

https://www.vettimes.co.uk/news/uks-first-union-practice-facing-strike-action/

https://bvu.org.uk/valley-vets-update-3/

https://bvu.org.uk/stress-at-work-survey-results/

https://uk.indeed.com/cmp/Ivc-Evidensia/faq/what-is-ivc-evidensia-sick-leave-policy-how-many-sick-leave-days-do-you-get-per-year?quid=1dcevlvc19r5t800

www.cvsukltd.co.uk/.../ pay: Our new exceptional,weeks full pay for colleagues.

https://uk.indeed.com/cmp/Linnaeus-4/faq/benefits

https://www.iom-world.org/sicknessabsence/summeas.htm

https://www.breakroom.cc/en-gb/employers/vet-partners

www.acas.org.uk/absence-trigger-points discrimination,to action from their employer.

https://www.hr-inform.co.uk/news-article/adjusting-triggers-for-absence-management

RE: Does anyone want to do anything about the state of the profession?

Clive Ansell — Thu, 04 Jul 2024 07:46:38 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30921/does-anyone-want-to-do-anything-about-the-state-of-the-profession/245012#245012"]No. The rate that minimum wage is climbing is hardly affordable for small businesses and drives up wages for the other staff. It's cost my business an extra £20,000 per year alone, that has to be made back by increasing fees. A full time employee at 21 years old is earning a minimum of about £25,000 now.[/quote]

£25k a year is pants and not a liveable wage

Someone 21 or over on NMW at £11.44 an hour, and a 40 hour week, is on just short of £24k.

After taxation of £3200, you would be left with £20800, or £1733 a month, or just over £400 a week. It would be impossible to live on that.