Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 16 Feb 2024 11:03:44 GMT

[quote userid="9440" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243754#243754"]I have found that resource guarding / behaviour is much more strongly influenced by genetics than training . [/quote]

I'd certainly agree that a tendency to resource guard is genetic. But back to the original subject of the thread - I think aversive training would be more likely to lead to it than prevent it.

There used to be a school of thought that recommended people took resources off puppies in order to teach them who's boss. Or put their hand in the food bowl to stop them eating. Or 'tell them off' for taking things. I prefer to tell people to always swap or distract rather than just take the object/food from the dog. And once you've fed a dog, leave it alone!

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

janine redman — Thu, 15 Feb 2024 14:01:05 GMT

I have found that resource guarding / behaviour is much more strongly influenced by genetics than training . This has been strongly reinforced by the 10 year old daughter of my original dog coming back to stay with me . I have her half sister too . So the genetic similarities of behaviour are very striking in both good and bad ways as is their obsessive behaviour , albeit directed at slightly different points of focus . Even their body language is similar to each other and different to the other collies I have owned / known / handled .

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 15 Feb 2024 09:13:21 GMT

[quote userid="9440" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243737#243737"]so from my experience the dogs I have do arrange themselves in a hierarchy which is fluid and dependent on preferential resources [/quote]

In some situations large numbers of dogs can live completely harmoniously together, yet in others just a couple of dogs can fight till the death. Dogs, like people, have personalities (temperaments) as well as having been heavily influenced in their behaviour by their upbringing and owner's management of them. I really don't think this is due to a general tendency to forming a linear pack hierarchy.

As you say, competition over available resources will create friction, as well as the dog's own tendency to guard a resource. Resource guarding is far more common in some breeds than others, but is directly caused by their management and/or training.

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

janine redman — Wed, 14 Feb 2024 11:26:28 GMT

My collies have a hierarchy as such , there are often little interactions as they work out who has priority over different resources . The senior dog has to go in the car first or she will block access to the younger dog . The younger dog will always pick up the tennis ball and the senior dog will give way to her or relinquish it when challenged . If the younger barges the senior she gets reprimanded, but the senior cannot push the younger dog off her food bowl but they will happily share chews and toys . There are threats and nuances and sometimes they self groom or the younger seeks grooming from the elder but never the other way round .

if there are visiting dogs there is tension until rules and position in the “pack” is established. At the moment I have a 10 year old “puppy” staying. She does not accept the senior dogs position and I need to keep them separated in the house .

so from my experience the dogs I have do arrange themselves in a hierarchy which is fluid and dependent on preferential resources

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Beats — Tue, 13 Feb 2024 22:57:54 GMT

Interesting thread.

I've always been amazed at how well-trained / behaved Guide Dogs are. I believe they use only positive training techniques, however there is a heavy selection bias with breeding and early socialisation and assessment playing a part in which ones end up as Guide Dogs.

Personally, I think 10 minutes advice in a consult room during an appointment for something else can make a world of difference - I suspect an hour in someone's home can too.

Simple one today: dog biting owner since being castrated. Digging down briefly: dog is resource guarding washing-machine capsules, dropped pencils and ripped up foam from kids teddies.

Advise I gave (and I'm very open to learning better approaches if anyone shares):

1) Listen to the dog: it growls and lifts lip prior to biting - when see these signs and suspect a bite may be coming don't try to remove things if there is not a very pressing need.

2) Try to avoid confrontations occurring:

a) I asked child how could keep the teddies safe - turns out if he moves them to wall side of bunk bed they shouldn't fall out.

b) Could you put washing powder/liquid in the drawer rather than those washing capsules in the drum?

c) Buy a 100 pack of pencils and if they get dropped during homework time lift a new one - pencils are cheap, harmless and not worth fighting over.

3) Stop punishing the dog after the event by locking him in the kitchen or having your partner "dominate" him like you saw on the telly.

4) Use some strategic child-gates to create zones and not have the dog with free-access everywhere unless this is really necessary - he doesn't need to go in child's bedroom at all.

5) Introduce a "leave-it" game with a suitable reward attached to the command and beginning with things the dog does not care about before working up to more treasured resources that are resource-guarding problem - may or may not work, but no harm in trying.

Personally, I feel that attempting to beat/scare the dog into giving up the teddie foam or pencils is just asking for a bite injury to occur in the home. I feel that "disciplining" it after the event is likely pointless.

Leaving the dog in a hungrier state of mind might make it more amenable to rewarding it for leaving the resources being guarded for some food instead. I'm not sure if this counts as disciplining a dog by feeding it less or positive reward-based training.

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 13 Feb 2024 16:17:40 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243729#243729"] I can think of a couple of occasions where I really wouldn't want to be filmed when a couple of dogs tried to attack me on a farm. [/quote]

Do you think your 'training' will have stopped them attacking anyone else in the future?

I'm not being sarcastic - I just genuinely don't think that aversive training when a dog is over threshold has any lasting beneficial effect. It may work in the moment, but won't teach the dog anything other than avoiding getting hurt next time. That often means being the first one to bite next time.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243729#243729"]Those two XL bullies that killed the grandma the other week - anything up to the death of the dogs would be proportionate.[/quote]

Absolutely. I doubt anything other than death would have stopped them. I guess the question is what 'training' (if any) they had received up to that point.

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 13 Feb 2024 15:21:29 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243728#243728"]What do you think would be 'sufficiently negative' enough for a dog that is biting a postman? [/quote]

Situational. Depends on what is proportional in the circumstances. I can think of a couple of occasions where I really wouldn't want to be filmed when a couple of dogs tried to attack me on a farm. Those two XL bullies that killed the grandma the other week - anything up to the death of the dogs would be proportionate.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243728#243728"]

This is flawed as there's more to 'good behaviour' than the way you describe it.

[/quote]

Yes, that's why I said beyond recall, and simple training lets try a nail clip and see what control the owner has in a novel situation - like a rabbit flushed on a walk or a cat running across the road. I was giving the idea off the top of my head, but throw in any assessment of 'goodness' that you like. As long as observed by a number of double blinded observers.

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 13 Feb 2024 14:14:42 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243721#243721"]Get some puppies of common breeds, Labrador, spaniel, terrier, poodle, bulldog and randomise to the two training methods. Stratify by sex. Equal numbers. At a year old assess compliance with simple commands 'sit' stay' 'wait', recall, but also look at some more novel situations - vet nail clip. How much control the owner has when a rabbit or cat runs past. With some blinded observers, you'd have your answer there. Based on my observations, the reason it will never happen is that the traditionally trained dogs would win, hands down.[/quote]

This is flawed as there's more to 'good behaviour' than the way you describe it. You're simply assessing whether dogs will follow a command. As Robert FalconerTaylor said earlier, both aversive and positive reinforcement methods will lead to dogs following commands. The question is whether their welfare has been compromised in getting there.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243721#243721"]I suspect if you advise a sufficiently negative stimulus the dog won't bite the postman again. Not sure any of the certified behaviourists would be recommending hitting the dog with a stick.......[/quote]

What do you think would be 'sufficiently negative' enough for a dog that is biting a postman?

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 13 Feb 2024 10:15:09 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243721#243721"]1. Owners viewpoint is invalid. Some of the worst behaved dogs are accompanied by the owner telling them they are a good boy. [/quote]

Been sitting here cogitating over whether that is true about owner opinion - because at the end of the day it is the owners opinion about how effective the training / modification has been that determines whether they are going to have a harmonious relationship with their dog!

I suppose it depends on what hypothesis you are testing? In other words, from this sort of survey it might be OK to say that 70% of people who used +methods of training found it effective, but there are SO many variables in the training relationship, I don't see how it could then suggest one form is more effective (or equally as effective) as another.

Would you (anyone) agree?

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243721#243721"]shared via the author's Facebook, promoting the authors views.[/quote]

Is that true? The study says it was shared on social media, but not in that context. It could have been shared neutrally in some neutral group.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243721#243721"] Even the choice of language is designed to consciously (or subconsciously) lead the reader - 'aversive or negative' versus 'positive'. Maybe use more grey terminology and call them traditional and modern?[/quote]

I wonder if that language has been used in the questionnaires, because for sure you would expect it to massively bias results.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243721#243721"]The likely false assumption that stress is negative.[/quote]

I was thinking about that too. I mean, in the lovey dovey world we live in today, where it is considered poor form to die before you're 798 years old and all steps should be taken to remove any risk of that happening, it has become unconscionable for any human or animal to suffer any form of suffering, offence, stress, or inconvenience.

But as you say, stress can have benefits too. I only have a hazy memory of the event, but I am sure I was stressed before I was given a beating at school. No long term ill effects, though (beyond not being able to sit down for a few hours!). And I certainly learned not to do it again. Incidentally, I am not anthropomorphising here, I was able to rationalise the beating and understood why it was happening and what I needed to do in order that it didn't happen again. A dog doesn't have that luxury.

Anyway, when I asked at the start whether there was any good science to show that one method of training is more effective than another, I was hoping for something along these lines.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243721#243721"]Ironically and very ethically, this subject area lends itself to easy to undertake random controlled trials. Get some puppies of common breeds, Labrador, spaniel, terrier, poodle, bulldog and randomise to the two training methods. Stratify by sex. Equal numbers. At a year old assess compliance with simple commands 'sit' stay' 'wait', recall, but also look at some more novel situations - vet nail clip.[/quote]

Someone in the last thread reproached me for not being aware of decades of research indicating that reward based is better than aversion based, and yet so far, the studies shared here don't seem to me to prove things one way or another.

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 13 Feb 2024 01:14:14 GMT

[quote userid="9147" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243713#243713"]I'd be very interested to see studies by authors without vested interests, but surely that's the point - to test hypotheses?[/quote]

Yes, with good science.

[quote userid="9147" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243713#243713"]Are you saying the study designs in all these studies are flawed and therefore invalidated? [/quote]

They are universally terrible studies, yes.

1. Owners viewpoint is invalid. Some of the worst behaved dogs are accompanied by the owner telling them they are a good boy. Compare to a working dog making one minor slip up and the trainer considering it a bad day. A questionnaire - are we doing our GCSE geography project?

2, Another survey, shared via the author's Facebook, promoting the authors views.

3. More questionnaire. Based on a single observers observations. Numbers in groups not stated. The likely false assumption that stress is negative. Stress = survival and better behaved dogs will be more stressed as getting something wrong has consequences. Whether you can make the dog 'sit' by being nice or mean is of minor consequence - release a cat into the room and then judge which dogs will continue to behave....

4. More of these awful pieces of survey and opinion dressed up like science. Convenience samples, poor control groups, lack of blinding, I found one vaguely well done example on the 5th page of a RCT with some blinding and everything. Refreshing.

Honestly, I would love to see some good science done in the behaviour sphere - as it is so clearly lacking. Multiple people in this thread saying how ineffective certified behaviourists are at achieving anything. It's just embarrassing presenting any of this as evidence of anything. Even the choice of language is designed to consciously (or subconsciously) lead the reader - 'aversive or negative' versus 'positive'. Maybe use more grey terminology and call them traditional and modern?

Ironically and very ethically, this subject area lends itself to easy to undertake random controlled trials. Get some puppies of common breeds, Labrador, spaniel, terrier, poodle, bulldog and randomise to the two training methods. Stratify by sex. Equal numbers. At a year old assess compliance with simple commands 'sit' stay' 'wait', recall, but also look at some more novel situations - vet nail clip. How much control the owner has when a rabbit or cat runs past. With some blinded observers, you'd have your answer there. Based on my observations, the reason it will never happen is that the traditionally trained dogs would win, hands down.

We are back to Arlo and the cane - I suspect if you advise a sufficiently negative stimulus the dog won't bite the postman again. Not sure any of the certified behaviourists would be recommending hitting the dog with a stick.......

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 12 Feb 2024 16:59:48 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243712#243712"]Dogs, undoubtedly, ARE pack animals.[/quote]

You've only copied half of my sentence.

Anyway ... this can be debated. They are certainly social animals, but they do not behave like wolves or other pack animal such as lions. They do not organise into a top-down hierarchy, but instead tend to scavenge individually, or work together to achieve a goal - whether that's with other dogs, or with humans in sheep herding or flushing game. It's far more cooperative.

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Robert FalconerTaylor — Mon, 12 Feb 2024 16:56:49 GMT

I'd be very interested to see studies by authors without vested interests, but surely that's the point - to test hypotheses?

Are you saying the study designs in all these studies are flawed and therefore invalidated?

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 12 Feb 2024 16:40:39 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243709#243709"]The now debunked myth of dogs as pack animals [/quote]

Dogs, undoubtedly, ARE pack animals.

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 12 Feb 2024 09:43:16 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243704#243704"]modern rather than traditional[/quote]

Reinforcement based training has been used for a long time, and aversive training has become more well known and popular recently due to people like Cesar Milan. The now debunked myth of dogs as pack animals with alpha and beta roles etc also made dominance-type training more common. However, Bob and Marian Bailey and others were using reinforcement methods to train animals from the 1950s.

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 11 Feb 2024 22:08:31 GMT

I think all the links are by authors who promote modern rather than traditional methods of dog training, no?

Vested interest, maybe?

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Robert FalconerTaylor — Sun, 11 Feb 2024 06:56:01 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243683#243683"]Is that personal opinion as regards both methods being equally effective[/quote]

No, this is what the evidence suggets - importantly from the owner's point of view. See -

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S155878782200137X

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787823000382

Then there are follow-up studies that show that aversive training methods can have long-term negative effects on dogs, for example -

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787814000070

Then check out the citations to this paper here - for many more recent papers - here's the link -

https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?cites=17210255481005808882&as_sdt=2005&sciodt=0,5&hl=en

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 10 Feb 2024 09:38:15 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243682#243682"]Don't we see this all the time? Some dogs run into our room assuming they're going to get a cuddle and a treat. Others come in reluctantly or aggressively, assuming the worst. I can't understand why you think that's anthropomorphic - it's simply a description of a behaviour.[/quote]

Maybe they just don't like coming to the vets? I don't like going to the dentist.

I'm not convinced dogs would have the cerebral capacity to be pessimistic?

[quote userid="2457" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243682#243682"]I can't understand why you think that's anthropomorphic - it's simply a description of a behaviour.[/quote]

Being happy or sad is a description of behaviour, whereas being pessimistic requires higher and deeper thought. Assuming canines, or any other species, are capable of this is in my mind anthropomorphic.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243682#243682"]I've said it before - but I really don't think that the dogs with the worst behaviour are being trained 'positively'. In my experience, they're constantly being shouted at, wearing tight slip leads or similar, completely confused about what is being expected of them, and not being prepared properly for the situations they are put in![/quote]

True enough.

Usual cause of bad behaviour is a lack of or no training, and often an idiot on the other end of the lead.

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 09 Feb 2024 16:52:07 GMT

[quote userid="9147" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243679#243679"]On the whole, both training methods are equally effective. It's the dog's welfare that's at stake. The 2 Julie Daniels papers I shared here go into this aspect in detail.[/quote]

Robert FalconerTaylor That's very interesting, thank you.

Is that personal opinion as regards both methods being equally effective or are there any studies which demonstrate that? It would be so useful to have a study like that, I would have thought, because is both methods are equally effective, then the reward-based one is a no brainer.

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 09 Feb 2024 15:03:05 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243674#243674"]

Once again, is there any evidence, anywhere at all, that

1. Dogs can be pessimistic?

a dictionary definition: thinking that bad things are more likely to happen or emphasizing the bad part of a situation: do dogs have the cerebral capacity for such a thought process? or once again are we over humanising them?

[/quote]

Don't we see this all the time? Some dogs run into our room assuming they're going to get a cuddle and a treat. Others come in reluctantly or aggressively, assuming the worst. I can't understand why you think that's anthropomorphic - it's simply a description of a behaviour.

Previous life experience, both in our practice or elsewhere, will have made the dog either optimistic or pessimistic.

Pessimistic dogs can still be 'well behaved', but they would not be expected to appear to be 'happy'. Optimistic dogs can certainly be badly behaved, but are usually 'happy'.

I realise 'happiness' in dogs is subjective.

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243674#243674"]Some of the happiest and well trained dogs I have ever worked with have been traditionally trained working and farm dogs.[/quote]

Absolutely. Right dog, right owner, right environment. Have you seen yourself how these dogs are trained? It's usually reward based by calm, experienced owners.

I've said it before - but I really don't think that the dogs with the worst behaviour are being trained 'positively'. In my experience, they're constantly being shouted at, wearing tight slip leads or similar, completely confused about what is being expected of them, and not being prepared properly for the situations they are put in!

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Robert FalconerTaylor — Fri, 09 Feb 2024 14:12:47 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243678#243678"]some measurement to see which was most effective[/quote]

On the whole, both training methods are equally effective. It's the dog's welfare that's at stake. The 2 Julie Daniels papers I shared here go into this aspect in detail.

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 09 Feb 2024 13:15:37 GMT

Robert FalconerTaylor thank you so much. I did try a similar search on Google Scholar, but nothing leapt out at me!

Looking at the results of your search, they are not dissimilar to the ones I found. First two concern welfare rather than effect (or efficacy). Third seems to be a review, but without a review!! Fourth looks at effects on behaviour for rehoming, but I cant access it all. Fifth is prospective (ie talks in the future tense and doesnt share any results). sixth is one I linked to above, which found dogs were slower to perform a task when aversive was used. Next was a discussion. Then a paper looking at factors influencing the type of approach used by owners.

I guess what I hoped to find was something where a few different groups of dogs were taught to do something using various methods and there was some measurement to see which was most effective. That other study I posted above seems to be the nearest I could find ... I just couldnt make out what the numbers involved in each group were (and therefore whether it was significant).

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Robert FalconerTaylor — Fri, 09 Feb 2024 12:20:59 GMT

Here's a Google Scholar search -

https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?as_q=aversive+%22reward-based%22+training&as_epq=&as_oq=dog+canine&as_eq=&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 09 Feb 2024 11:20:23 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243674#243674"]So, anecdotally, I think it is utter tosh. [/quote]

Here's the study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8463679/

My first reaction was similar to yours! But I think perhaps it is semantics, the bottom line was that the dogs in the aversion trained group were slower to go and get some food from the bowls than the reward ones, which the study says 'suggests a negative mood state'. Perhaps pessimism isn't the right word for that! Perhaps they didn't have a negative mood state at all. But is it nevertheless significant that the aversion trained dogs were slower to grab the grub?

But do you think of the other study I posted: 261106650_Dog_training_methods_Their_use_effectiveness_and_interaction_with_behaviour_and_welfare

It concludes that rewards-based training is more effective than punishment-based training. The problem I have so far is that the results part of the study doesn't seem to share the actual numbers of dogs that responded or not to the different types of training (or am I being thick here). And of course it is an owner survey, with the problems that brings.

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Clive Ansell — Thu, 08 Feb 2024 20:18:57 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243671#243671"]So far, I have found studies looking at the welfare aspects of reward vs punishment, and one saying punishment led to a more pessimistic dog (?) - but not much else.[/quote]

Once again, is there any evidence, anywhere at all, that

1. Dogs can be pessimistic?

2. That punishment training could cause them to be pessimistic, if they are capable of it?

Some of the happiest and well trained dogs I have ever worked with have been traditionally trained working and farm dogs.

So, anecdotally, I think it is utter tosh.

RE: Are dogs being failed / harmed by 'woke' attitudes to training?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 08 Feb 2024 15:41:35 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30895/are-dogs-being-failed-harmed-by-woke-attitudes-to-training/243667#243667"]With "Woke" in the title of the thread, it is inevitable it will evoke a discussion with, lets call it, a wide range of differing opinions.[/quote]

Yes - I only kept it because it was pertinent to the way the story was reported and it does I think reflect changing attitudes in society (although not to the same extreme degree as the people you have quoted).

Nevertheless, the point of reposting is to highlight this shift in attitude away from punishment or discipline based training, and ask whether the science supports it, or is it just a belief system?

So far, I have found studies looking at the welfare aspects of reward vs punishment, and one saying punishment led to a more pessimistic dog (?) - but not much else.

But I did find this 2004 study: 261106650_Dog_training_methods_Their_use_effectiveness_and_interaction_with_behaviour_and_welfare