Are we complicit if we don't report unregistered XL Bullies?

RE: Are we complicit if we don't report unregistered XL Bullies?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 10 Feb 2024 09:43:23 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30889/are-we-complicit-if-we-don-t-report-unregistered-xl-bullies/243647#243647"]Meanwhile another person dies as a result of society's strange desire to breed unsafe dogs: https://news.sky.com/story/woman-dies-after-being-attacked-by-two-dogs-in-essex-13063798[/quote]

It has now been established that the 2 dogs involved were indeed XL Bully types, and that the owner has been breeding them too.

Will be interesting to see if a prosecution results and whether realistic sanctions or punishments are handed out.

RE: Are we complicit if we don't report unregistered XL Bullies?

Eamon McAllister — Wed, 07 Feb 2024 09:28:01 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30889/are-we-complicit-if-we-don-t-report-unregistered-xl-bullies/243605#243605"] I have no moral objections to killing healthy dogs.[/quote]

Lucky you.

RE: Are we complicit if we don't report unregistered XL Bullies?

Clive Ansell — Wed, 07 Feb 2024 07:05:40 GMT

Had one yesterday. A 52kg cross breed SBT, which looks like an XL Bully to me. In for castration, aggressive. Owner doesn't not have and will not get a muzzle for it, and insists the legislation doesn't apply to him.

We are under no obligation too I know, but should it be reported?

RE: Are we complicit if we don't report unregistered XL Bullies?

Clive Ansell — Mon, 05 Feb 2024 18:06:56 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30889/are-we-complicit-if-we-don-t-report-unregistered-xl-bullies/243647#243647"]I really do think there should be a significant penalty for the owners of ALL dangerous dogs which cause injury or death (then they would be able to spend less time worrying about the breed). [/quote]

There was already legislation in place and it is against the law to let a dog be dangerously out of control anywhere. That is any dog, not just named specific breeds or XL Bully types.

The issue is lack of enforcement and leniency from the courts.

https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public

RE: Are we complicit if we don't report unregistered XL Bullies?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 05 Feb 2024 09:23:08 GMT

[quote userid="17254" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30889/are-we-complicit-if-we-don-t-report-unregistered-xl-bullies/243606#243606"]I differentiate between slaughter of animals in the food chain, destruction of animals in an endemic ie foot and mouth or similar and government ordered killing.[/quote]

Stefan Radermacher Hi, can I ask how you differentiate between slaughter of animals in the food chain / or to prevent the spread of disease, and government ordered killing (and presumably owner-ordered killing). Genuinely interested, because I struggle to differentiate.

Meanwhile another person dies as a result of society's strange desire to breed unsafe dogs: https://news.sky.com/story/woman-dies-after-being-attacked-by-two-dogs-in-essex-13063798

I really do think there should be a significant penalty for the owners of ALL dangerous dogs which cause injury or death (then they would be able to spend less time worrying about the breed).

RE: Are we complicit if we don't report unregistered XL Bullies?

Noweia — Sun, 04 Feb 2024 10:44:33 GMT

This. If I was worried it was dangerous, and owner wasn't taking the matter seriously, I would consider reporting.

RE: Are we complicit if we don't report unregistered XL Bullies?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 10:33:19 GMT

Where I have been working, there have been suprisingly few request for euthanasia of XL-Bully's. I have personally only carried out 2, and in both cases the dogs were very aggressive so needed doing anyway.

I'm not happy euthanasing healthy (pet) animals, and have in the past refused on the odd occasion. I would euthanase a healthy XL Bully on request to enable an owner to comply with legislation, although not entirely happy with it. If I don't ,it means someone else may have too which is unfair in offloading the responsibility to someone else. If a colleague chooses not too, I would support and respect their decision.

Michael's post above is spot on, this is the guidance from our RCVS

"Concerns about euthanising healthy dogs

We understand there will be some members of the profession who do not wish to euthanise healthy XL Bully dogs, either because it is not safe for them to do so, or because they object to it on moral grounds.

There is no obligation in the RCVS Code of Professional Conduct for a veterinary surgeon to euthanise a healthy animal. However, the owner’s wishes and circumstances should also always be taken into account, particularly if public safety and/or the animal’s welfare could be compromised should the request be refused.

Where, in all conscience, a veterinary surgeon cannot accede to a client's request for euthanasia, they should recognise the extreme sensitivity of the situation and make sympathetic efforts to direct the client to alternative sources of advice. Further information regarding conscientious objection can be found in the supporting guidance to the Code: Chapter 2 Veterinary Care.

If you consider the owner is uncertain about a decision to euthanise their XL Bully dog, you might consider it appropriate to discuss with them the alternative option of applying for a Certificate of Exemption instead.

As usual, please ensure you record accurate, contemporaneous clinical notes about your decisions and actions."

and

"Conscientious objection

2.29 Veterinary surgeons and veterinary nurses may only refuse to carry out specific procedures or treatment or provide specific services based on a conscientious objection where it is reasonable in all the circumstances and animal welfare is not compromised.

2.30 Where a veterinary surgeon is satisfied that animal welfare is not affected, they should make alternative arrangements for the animal, or where this is not possible, ensure the client has enough information to seek assistance from another veterinary surgeon. When exercising a conscientious objection, veterinary surgeons and veterinary nurses should ensure that they communicate their position sensitively and treat the client with respect.

2.31 Veterinary surgeons and veterinary nurses should inform employers of their conscientious objection at the earliest opportunity so that, if necessary, contingency plans can be made.

2.32 Veterinary surgeons and veterinary nurses should be open with colleagues about their conscientious objection and explore with those colleagues how they can practise in accordance with their beliefs without compromising patient care and without overburdening others."

https://www.rcvs.org.uk/setting-standards/advice-and-guidance/xl-bully-dog-ban/#concerns-euthanising-healthy-dogs

https://www.rcvs.org.uk/setting-standards/advice-and-guidance/code-of-professional-conduct-for-veterinary-surgeons/supporting-guidance/veterinary-care/

RE: Are we complicit if we don't report unregistered XL Bullies?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 10:21:58 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30889/are-we-complicit-if-we-don-t-report-unregistered-xl-bullies"]So, if an unregistered one comes in and we don’t report it and it subsequently causes harm, are we complicit ?[/quote]

No.

The owner is entirely responsible for the the actions of their dog, not us.

If I had genuine concerns that an XL Bully was dangerous I would report it though.

Maybe we should be reporting any dog we consider to be dangerous??

RE: Are we complicit if we don't report unregistered XL Bullies?

Stefan Radermacher — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 06:43:29 GMT

Obviously I am referring to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. I differentiate between slaughter of animals in the food chain, destruction of animals in an endemic ie foot and mouth or similar and government ordered killing. There are always Vets who follow orders,

RE: Are we complicit if we don't report unregistered XL Bullies?

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 01:56:39 GMT

[quote userid="17254" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30889/are-we-complicit-if-we-don-t-report-unregistered-xl-bullies/243591#243591"]Where is our moral obligation when killing healthy dogs at the PM’s request ?[/quote]

Prime minister or practice manager?

Either way, I have no moral objections to killing healthy dogs. I hope the cow I had for tea was healthy when killed, and hope it had a good life while enjoying it. Euthanasia not a welfare issue (if done properly), only living animals can suffer. Legally, an animal is an owners' possession, and they are entitled to dispose of that as they wish. Whilst I would discuss options, I'm very happy to euthanase on request. If legislation says we euthanase a particular animal, I will obviously comply. It's just another component of the job that will only give you moral anguish if you let it.

If your absolute moral stance is that you will not undertake the procedure - you should refer to another veterinary surgeon who will. In the same way a doctor would if personally against a procedure, eg abortion. Refusing, and sending away without a resolution, is not acceptable.

RE: Are we complicit if we don't report unregistered XL Bullies?

Pieter van Zuuren — Fri, 02 Feb 2024 16:38:54 GMT

Without asking the owner, how do we know if the dog is unregistered?

RE: Are we complicit if we don't report unregistered XL Bullies?

Stefan Radermacher — Fri, 02 Feb 2024 14:25:00 GMT

Where is our moral obligation when killing healthy dogs at the PM’s request ? We are Veterinary Surgeons and not the police. And what about client/patient confidentiality ?

RE: XL Bullies reporting

David Mills — Fri, 02 Feb 2024 08:41:20 GMT

You're no more obliged than a member of the public. Although we may know what a XL bully is or looks like, we aren't DLOs

As to breaking confidentiality, it used to be that we would ring the RCVS but stopped doing so as the advice was invariably "it's ultimately your decision". Which I don't actually have a problem with.

RE: XL Bullies reporting

Rob Loxley — Fri, 02 Feb 2024 08:36:53 GMT

From https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ban-on-xl-bully-dogs#vets Vets will not be expected to report XL Bully dogs and their owners to the police. Published 1 February 2024

However, if a client of ours, paying us for our professional advice for their pet, comes in and is not following the law then should we not remind them of the law? If an un-microchipped dog is presented by its owner a client of ours, I would advise them of the requirements regarding microchipping (and make a record of that), but if they don't do anything I won't be reporting them to the police/ dog warden.

Remember that RCVS rules on client confidentiality apply, though exemption exists where disclosure can be justified by 'the wider public interest' https://www.rcvs.org.uk/setting-standards/advice-and-guidance/code-of-professional-conduct-for-veterinary-surgeons/supporting-guidance/client-confidentiality/

RE: XL Bullies reporting

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 01 Feb 2024 18:26:30 GMT

[quote userid="8361" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30889/xl-bullies-reporting/243568#243568"]Would be nice to have some guidance from our regulator...[/quote]

Careful what you wish for...

If the regulator is forced to speak, they won't say 'not our members' problem'

RE: XL Bullies reporting

Lucy Fleming — Thu, 01 Feb 2024 17:52:10 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30889/xl-bullies-reporting/243567#243567"]Can't say I can think of many times in my life when I have heard a policeman ask the public to do something quite so likely to cause trouble.[/quote]

I also can't see it being hugely useful - unless you know the name/ address of the owner to provide them, Not sure the police would be able to do much about "I saw an XL bully in Example Park at 10am on Saturday the 12th"

RE: XL Bullies reporting

ian bates — Thu, 01 Feb 2024 14:47:41 GMT

I think I would have to report it. Legalities aside, if that dog went on to seriously harm someone, and I had swerved at least a moral obligation to report it, I would struggle to rationalise any lack of action.

RE: XL Bullies reporting

Sarah Wheadon — Thu, 01 Feb 2024 11:43:11 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30889/xl-bullies-reporting"]

So, if an unregistered one comes in and we don’t report it and it subsequently causes harm, are we complicit ?

Neil

[/quote]

Would be nice to have some guidance from our regulator...

RE: XL Bullies reporting

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 01 Feb 2024 11:39:33 GMT

I was just listening to a news report on the radio in which a police chief was asking members of the public to report it if they see a dog which matches the description of an XL bully which is unmuzzled, unleashed or under the control of someone under the age of, was it 18?

Can't say I can think of many times in my life when I have heard a policeman ask the public to do something quite so likely to cause trouble.

Apart from anything else, I am not sure I could tell the difference between an xl bully and probably half a dozen other breeds.

RE: XL Bullies reporting

Lucy Fleming — Thu, 01 Feb 2024 11:13:34 GMT

Interesting question...

Is a registered one less likely to do harm? (I guess the presumption is an owner who hasn't registered is also less likely to be compliant with leashing/ muzzling.)