What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Gerry Henry — Wed, 06 Mar 2024 12:54:45 GMT

Worse in Canada apparently

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Chris Milligan — Wed, 06 Mar 2024 00:04:56 GMT

[quote userid="24356" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243891#243891"]The reality is that virtually anyone, with sufficient training could be taught to do routine surgery.[/quote]

agreed, but there's little chance a nurse will have received adequate training. I don't know about you but my surgical training took place over 6 years at university and then at least another 4 in practice before I had any clue what I was actually doing. The article posted about this trivialises so-called minor procedures; even a cat castrate can go disastrously wrong if you don't understand the principles of haemostasis, not to mention how to react in an anaesthetic. Say a well-meaning nurse decides to give a local lidocaine block into a testicle and the animal has an anaphylactic reaction to the lidocaine while the nurse is operating - who is responsible? It's just cost-cutting by any other name. I was particularly alarmed to see tail amputations being cited as a simple surgery - yes they are, if you know how badly they can go wrong if you cock them up. Also, are we really doing that many tail amputations that we need to outsource them to nursing staff because we're too busy doing what?

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Cinzia Gandini — Tue, 05 Mar 2024 11:51:19 GMT

[quote userid="2675" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243929#243929"]opposing views are now a heresy[/quote]

Sometimes the future can be found in the past

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Richard Carter — Tue, 05 Mar 2024 07:26:22 GMT

Watched a programme about the state of the psychiatry profession and how the leaders of their ruling council with a political agenda have embraced and then enforced all sorts of fringe ideologies with the result that opposing views are now a heresy and can lose your job.
Same with policing, same with teaching. I’m sure these were best of intentions as well

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Mon, 04 Mar 2024 19:30:56 GMT

The RCVS may always have been the organisation vets in practice loved to hate but I do think there has none the less been some trust and confidence in the fact that it was fellow vets who were writing the Code of Conduct and supporting guidance and passing it by vote in council. Vets in practice do a huge amount of unseen and unrecognised work for the benefit of the animals in their care and their welfare. Regulation by a majority of their fellow veterinary surgeons who have experienced what they are having to do is respected and should be appreciated as important for goodwill and cooperation.

I agree with Richard and Evelyn that ours is a unique profession, it is incredibly challenging at times and I do have concerns that there will be unintended consequences of making it like every other regulatory body. There will be a loss of goodwill and an increased fear in vets that they are going to be held to standards voted in by a majority of non vets who have no experience of what it is like to be a practising vet.

As in the NHS and dentistry in this country we seem to be struggling to provide consistent levels of care and many vets are not happy in their work and are disillusioned and thinking of leaving the profession . I think this is extremely concerning as fundamentally not having to work out of hours, shorter working hours and better employment rights should make for happier vets than in the past. I think this is more important than replacing vets on council with lay members and other professionals. I loved my life in practice and I want my younger colleagues to experience that too.

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 03 Mar 2024 20:17:31 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243916#243916"]The people on Council are all vets, and by and large share the very same character traits as the rest of the profession: caring, trustworthy, driven by the desire to do the best etc etc.[/quote]

I'm not convinced that is universally true, but "by and large", I'll allow you that. Why? because they are elected – they have to bare themselves to the rest of the profession at least once.

"Appointed" people might be the same – they might not. How will we know? Who's to appoint them? Indeed, who's to remove them again?. Itr ain't much to ask that anybody who's going to have some power over the profession should submit themselves to the approval of the profession.

As for the "lay" people – well you know what I think, but I wouldn't mind so much if they too had to be elected.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243916#243916"] I too can "easily see well-meaning council members voting for this kind of change because they genuinely think it will improve the RCVS."[/quote]

Perhaps they do... I'm more interested in who came up with the proposals in the first place, and above all WHY?

Governments put out proposals, lay out ideas, have consultations, in advance, long before anything gets to a vote in Parliament. The RCVS Establishment pushes through decisions and then puts them out for consultations afterwards (and usually ignores the harvest of the consultation).

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Arlo Guthrie — Sun, 03 Mar 2024 18:42:50 GMT

[quote userid="25265" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243912#243912"]I can easily see well-meaning council members voting for this kind of change because they genuinely think it will improve the RCVS.[/quote]

TOTALLY agree with you.

In fact, I find it hard to understand how some people start by assuming the worst about all Council decisions, that they are driven by money, or big business, or self-aggrandisement, or some fascist plot, or whatever.

And yet ....

The people on Council are all vets, and by and large share the very same character traits as the rest of the profession: caring, trustworthy, driven by the desire to do the best etc etc.

So maybe I belong on the naive bench alongside you, but I too can "easily see well-meaning council members voting for this kind of change because they genuinely think it will improve the RCVS."

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Cinzia Gandini — Sun, 03 Mar 2024 17:44:36 GMT

[quote userid="25265" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243914#243914"]splitting the regulatory and Royal College functions[/quote]

It could lead to increased costs to achieve little or no more we have now, it could also create an escalation in increased prices like a cascade till the end user, the owners of pets for example. We don't have the NHS, which is actually covering chronic pathologies for example, so I'm not sure we can afford it. I don't see the reason why we want to mirror other professions, I'm not aware human doctors are mirroring theirs to be in line with the Veterinary Surgeons

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Ben Walker — Sun, 03 Mar 2024 16:26:27 GMT

That may be part of where our disagreements arise. Perhaps I am looking at the RCVS more as a regulator, and others see it more as a Royal College?

Malcolm Morley (as quoted in the article you link to) seems to agree that moving away from elections on the regulatory side would be sensible. I assume for the reasons I have put forward. He seems to be proposing splitting the regulatory and Royal College functions and maintaining elections on the Royal College side. I would support such a move.

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Cinzia Gandini — Sun, 03 Mar 2024 16:14:22 GMT

As far as I know it's the Medical Act 1983, for example, that clearly states, 'quote'

'The over-arching objective of the General Council in exercising their functions is the protection of the public'

While the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966 should be modified to be like the Human Medical Act

The RCVS role is both a regulator and a Royal College, as well described by the BVA

https://bvajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/vetr.3904

it's also true that the priorities of the Veterinary Medicine are many because the discipline is very wide taking in consideration

small animals treated like pets, large animals producing human food, wildlife,...that do not get any close to the human medicine

priorities, and there's little to understand if you didn't graduate in Veterinary Medicine. So even if the Act can be considered not

modern enough, in my opinion can not mirror the Act of other professions. Can a lawyer or an accountant understand the welfare

of dairy cows? Can they tell the normal behaviour of a cat or a dog to then define the regulations to respect their welfare?

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Ben Walker — Sun, 03 Mar 2024 16:13:35 GMT

We are a profession where the public interest is served by the RCVS being able to decide who can practice as a veterinary surgeon by examination and qualifications. Removing the bad apples is part of this duty. Otherwise the RCVS exists to further knowledge and to promote science as the basis of our work.

It is also supposed to be made up of or have access to experts for having a stance on various veterinary issues.

It is not supposed to be ofcom, ofgen etc.where complaints about how long it took to answer the phone are looked into.

[/quote]

Hi Richard. I'm not sure I see where we disagree. All of the above is common ground and I'm not arguing against the RCVS being a regulator, furthering education, or having access to experts.

As I've stated a few times, I think public trust in the profession(s) has dimished and means self-regulation is outdated.

I see a conflict of interest in having elected professional members making up the majority of council.

I also see a contradiction in claiming that professional declarations should be enough to reassure Joe Public that professional council members will uphold their interests, while demanding electoral accountability to ensure they uphold members' interests.

You state that there is an agenda, but I'm not sure there needs to be. I can easily see well-meaning council members voting for this kind of change because they genuinely think it will improve the RCVS. I know some will think me naive, but please explain where I am wrong.

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Richard Carter — Sun, 03 Mar 2024 12:06:21 GMT

Sorry- agree with Evelyn. We are a profession where the public interest is served by the RCVS being able to decide who can practice as a veterinary surgeon by examination and qualifications. Removing the bad apples is part of this duty. Otherwise the RCVS exists to further knowledge and to promote science as the basis of our work.

It is also supposed to be made up of or have access to experts for having a stance on various veterinary issues.

It is not supposed to be ofcom, ofgen etc.where complaints about how long it took to answer the phone are looked into.

This current shift is an agenda and when the lawyers have ousted the vets from their own council, it won’t be going well for the hoops to jump through, boxes to tick..

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Ben Walker — Sun, 03 Mar 2024 08:57:28 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243908#243908"]the RCVS exists so that the public can be confident that the person treating their animals is competent and acts in a professional manner.[/quote]

In my first post in this thread I wrote that “The point of a regulator is to reassure the public as to the standards of the profession.” I think we have the same starting point.

Your post was really helpful, thank you. I think I understand the position better, even if I disagree.

I understand the principle of self-regulation, but I don’t think it’s a good thing.

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243908#243908"]it was understood that a professional person did not unfairly exploit their position[/quote]

Again, in my first post I wrote “Historically we had a lot more trust, so the regulator was a gatekeeper, accountable to existing members. Times change”. I stand by this. I think the public trust we used to have as professionals has diminished.

[quote userid="2131" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243908#243908"]Unlike many (any?) other professions, the chartered professional body (i.e. us – we are all members) was given the statutory role of regulating the profession. (It was not forbidden to also represent the profession)[/quote]

I think this dual role creates a conflict of interest.

Whether I agree or not isn’t important. The status quo is for self-regulation. But I do understand where the council members who have voted for change are coming from.

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 03 Mar 2024 00:47:40 GMT

[quote userid="25265" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243904#243904"]Serving the public interest is undefinable. [/quote]

Right from the first Charter and then the first Veterinary Surgeons Act, it's been made plain that (sorry, I haven't got the actual words but this is the gist) the RCVS exists so that the public can be confident that the person treating their animals is competent and acts in a professional manner.

Later (1966) it was a finally determined that only MsRCVS may practise veterinary medicine and surgery. For the same reason. Not to give them a monopoly which they could unfairly exploit. But then it was understood that a professional person did not unfairly exploit their position.

Unlike many (any?) other professions, the chartered professional body (i.e. us – we are all members) was given the statutory role of regulating the profession. (It was not forbidden to also represent the profession). What several successive people in positions of power within the RCVS HQ have failed to grasp is that we are supposed to be a self-regulating profession. How can we be self-regulating if we can't choose those who are on Council on our behalf, or if appointed "lay" people can always outvote us?

"Appointing" of course just means cronyism and "big names". And "lay" people rarely are lay people.

Sorry for turboposting, system playing up a little tonight.

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 03 Mar 2024 00:22:47 GMT

And CEO salaries, of course.

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 03 Mar 2024 00:18:58 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243882#243882"]At CVS we are passionate about allowing RVN’s to utilise their extensive training, qualification and experience. Which is why, along with pushing for greater clarification regarding schedule 3 legislation, we also strongly support changes in legislation that will break down barriers and allow RVN’s to perform more procedures in practice.[/quote]

Cut the b.s. It's because nurses are cheaper than veterinary surgeons

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Ben Walker — Sat, 02 Mar 2024 22:12:33 GMT

[quote userid="9440" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243902#243902"]And what does ”serving the public “ mean in reality ? As a veterinary surgeon we uphold an oath to look after the welfare of our patients. It is a difficult concept that the RCVS should serve the public ?[/quote]

Serving the public interest is undefinable. It depends on the specific issue. The institute of chartered accountants have published a report on exactly this (summary link: https://www.icaew.com/-/media/corporate/files/technical/ethics/public-interest-summ-web.ashx?la=en).

Their argument is that the way policy decisions are made and who is advocating for them is important. Most people will assume that individuals will invoke “the public good” to advance their own interest.

I’m not sure what you mean by “It is a difficult concept that the RCVS should serve the public?” I don’t think our declaration is enough to guarantee selflessness in decision making. I think the RCVS should serve the public but the election system introduces a conflict of interest. What do you think?

[quote userid="9440" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243902#243902"]The public does not speak with one voice nor does it have a comprehensive understanding of veterinary practice as a whole or disease surveillance and risk factors.[/quote]

A comprehensive understanding of disease surveillance and risk factors is not currently a requirement for election and there are lay people who have this. Finally, I’m not saying there should be no professional members on council, just that they shouldn’t be the majority.

[quote userid="9440" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243902#243902"]I am still of the opinion that the decision to allow non veterinary surgeons to own and run veterinary businesses was not of benefit to the profession , the public , or the pets .[/quote]

I agree. It has led to a major accountability gap.

[quote userid="9440" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243902#243902"]veterinary professionals at the very least have an understanding of the real pressures faced by the vets “ on the ground” when considering changes in legislation and policy[/quote]

And our voices deserve a place on council. But why should we be a majority vote?

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

David Scarff — Sat, 02 Mar 2024 22:08:19 GMT

If this area (East Anglia) is anything to go by, recruiting and retaining vets is proving very difficult. But I'm not sure that Joe public will go along with funding the 'gold standard' service if they feel delegation to less qualified professionals is happening. And ultimately it is still the responsible vet who will carry the can. RVNs need to be careful not to get themselves into situations they find difficult to refuse, with inadequate back up. When will the first nurse be struck off for performing a surgical procedure that is beyond their experience.

I am all for increasing the role of veterinary nurses, but their role needs to come from them, and not what is expedient and profitable for the employer.

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

janine redman — Sat, 02 Mar 2024 21:32:48 GMT

And what does ”serving the public “ mean in reality ? As a veterinary surgeon we uphold an oath to look after the welfare of our patients. It is a difficult concept that the RCVS should serve the public ? Which sector of the public should they serve ? The public does not speak with one voice nor does it have a comprehensive understanding of veterinary practice as a whole or disease surveillance and risk factors.

Certainly the organisation should be there to protect the public from veterinary practices which are detrimental to animal welfare or that are illegal but public opinion is not always factually accurate,it is often fickle, and is not always something which benefits animal welfare. I am still of the opinion that the decision to allow non veterinary surgeons to own and run veterinary businesses was not of benefit to the profession , the public , or the pets .
veterinary professionals at the very least have an understanding of the real pressures faced by the vets “ on the ground” when considering changes in legislation and policy

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Ben Walker — Sat, 02 Mar 2024 18:31:17 GMT

[quote userid="4103" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243887#243887"]Exactly and soon the professional members won't get a vote too, the doubt is about who will elect the Council and how will the 18 vacant members, the ones elected by the RCVS membership, be distributed?[/quote]

My point is that council is meant to serve the public, not the profession. I was pointing out that the people and animals who are represented by council don't get a vote, but those who are regulated do. I'm unclear why it should be possible for the profession to be able to elect a majority.

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243879#243879"]Dictionary definition of democracy is a system of governance in which the people of a country, or an organisation, can vote to elect their representatives, and have a say in how things are run.[/quote]

Clive's comment suggests he thinks professional council members are supposed to be our representatives. This comes through in the candidate statements from perfectly credible candidates, so I don't think he is alone.

If I am correct that RCVS and its council are meant to serve the public and not the profession, either we have a conflict of interest from the candidates, or the balance is skewed too far towards professional Council members.

Personally, I would be happy to retain elected professional members if there were a smaller proportion of them. I think increasing lay representation is more important than abolishing elections. I'm not sure that elections lead to council members with the skills that are required, but appointment systems often fail there too.

I just don't see how a member of the public could be confident that council as it stands today is there for them and not for the profession.

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Rob Loxley — Sat, 02 Mar 2024 16:38:26 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243884#243884"]PS I work with nurses who stitch up and they do a great job[/quote]

How many nurses currently use their full skills to the extent that schedule 3 currently allows? Does that help rvn job satisfaction and retention? Is the profession awash with vets or are practices struggling under the workload? Have vets historically been very poor at delegating work to those perfectly well qualified?

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Elizabeth — Sat, 02 Mar 2024 12:57:46 GMT

The reality is that virtually anyone, with sufficient training could be taught to do routine surgery. So letting nurses do minor procedures could easily morphi into castrates and spays if the corporations run the RCVS.
What then happens to the vets - a lot of vets leave because of stress. If they lose the ‘more fun ‘ surgeries are more going to end up hating surgery and stop doing it altogether?

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 02 Mar 2024 12:16:15 GMT

[quote userid="4103" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243887#243887"]how will the 18 vacant members, the ones elected by the RCVS membership, be distributed?[/quote]

Well as the RCVS needs to modernise, it's natural that they follow the example of other 'modernised companies' after all why be different?

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 02 Mar 2024 12:15:53 GMT

Dear Mrs Fussy, we are delighted to stitch up flossy for you, you can either have the vet with 25 years experience with 5 years training, or our new nurse who has just qualified' .......

Neil

PS I work with nurses who stitch up and they do a great job

[/quote]

I don't question the ability or competence of our nurses at all, and have always been in favour of delegating more to them. Many I know would be very good at it.

What I question is the motive behind it; large corporations seeking to minimise costs and maximising profits as much as they can, so even more can be handed over to investors, and clinical standards would have to play second fiddle. I did a long locum last year at a small branch of a corporate owned group, and witnessed extreme cost cutting measures such as making nursing and reception staff redundant when the clinic was already short staffed - they seem to be cutting everything back to the bone as much as is possible to increase so called productivity.

[quote userid="8958" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243884#243884"]The question is of course, would this cost saving be passed to the consumer?[/quote]

3 guesses, but you'll only need one. (clue - it is not yes)

Of course not; shareholder payouts

RE: What do you think about the RCVS proposals to stop council elections and move to appointed members with equal or almost equal number of lay members ?

Cinzia Gandini — Sat, 02 Mar 2024 11:41:30 GMT

[quote userid="25265" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30878/what-do-you-think-about-the-rcvs-proposals-to-stop-council-elections-and-move-to-appointed-members-with-equal-or-almost-equal-number-of-lay-members/243877#243877"]animals don’t get a vote. The public doesn’t get a vote[/quote]

Exactly and soon the professional members won't get a vote too, the doubt is about who will elect the Council and how will the 18 vacant members, the ones elected by the RCVS membership, be distributed?