Is this a dangerous dog?

RE: Is this a dangerous dog?

Ben Walker — Wed, 11 Oct 2023 22:24:41 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30784/is-this-a-dangerous-dog/242611#242611"] I think where there is a criminal act (A dangerously out of control dog is a criminal offence) victims should be compensated in full without having to resort to taking civil action[/quote]

I agree, to a point. You’re describing a criminal compensation order. But they’re only possible to issue when the losses are easy to calculate and that may not apply here. My point was just that you don’t actually know whether the farmer was compensated or not based solely on a criminal court sentence. I think we both agree that he should be.

RE: Is this a dangerous dog?

Clive Ansell — Wed, 11 Oct 2023 19:40:57 GMT

[quote userid="25265" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30784/is-this-a-dangerous-dog/242609#242609"]Neither of us know the facts of the case or the sentencing[/quote]

Very true.

[quote userid="25265" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30784/is-this-a-dangerous-dog/242609#242609"]We have opposing opinions here. I see the system working as intended. Compensation is a civil matter and not a criminal justice issue. You don’t know whether the farmer has sought or received redress.[/quote]

It may be working as intended, but that is of little help to the victims in these cases. I think where there is a criminal act (A dangerously out of control dog is a criminal offence) victims should be compensated in full without having to resort to taking civil action

We had three serious dog on dog attacks in one week back in June. All little dogs on leads belonging to elderly owners that were attacked by off lead large out of control dogs (2 XLAB's and one Great Dane). On died at the scene, and the other two had horrific injuries and survived many £1000's later. Police are looking at taking action in one of the case, but have dismissed the other two. There is no help or support here for the victims whatsoever, while irresponsible owners can walk away raising two fingers, and if they are taken to task might get a fine on a par with a speeding ticket.

RE: Is this a dangerous dog?

Ben Walker — Wed, 11 Oct 2023 19:08:02 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30784/is-this-a-dangerous-dog/242608#242608"]Because our criminal justice system is useless, feeble, and not fit for purpose, and if it did what it should these farmer's would be compensated in full including for all distress it has caused, along with a hefty punishment for those responsible. [/quote]

We have opposing opinions here. I see the system working as intended. Compensation is a civil matter and not a criminal justice issue. You don’t know whether the farmer has sought or received redress.

Neither of us know the facts of the case or the sentencing, but I think my guess that the magistrate court punished him to the greatest extent the facts warranted is reasonable. If they had found him to have higher culpability then he would likely have received a community order or a custodial sentence. Whether the guideline sentences are correct is a different matter.

RE: Is this a dangerous dog?

Clive Ansell — Wed, 11 Oct 2023 17:19:55 GMT

[quote userid="2675" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30784/is-this-a-dangerous-dog/242606#242606"]So perhaps someone can explain a recent event near us- dog gets into sheep, kills and maims to a value apparently exceeding £2000, owner gets away with £100 fine????[/quote][quote userid="25265" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30784/is-this-a-dangerous-dog/242607#242607"]there’s a similar-sounding recent case in North Wales where an XL Bully attacked a flock of pregnant ewes and caused over £14,000 of financial damage. The punishment in the magistrates court was that the owner was barred from owning dogs for five years and fined £900.[/quote]

Because our criminal justice system is useless, feeble, and not fit for purpose, and if it did what it should these farmer's would be compensated in full including for all distress it has caused, along with a hefty punishment for those responsible.

A very good friend of mine is a sheep farmer. He has had his sheep attacked several times now, so if he now sees any dog off a lead around his sheep they are immediately shot without hesitation, as the law allows.

RE: Is this a dangerous dog?

Ben Walker — Wed, 11 Oct 2023 16:14:10 GMT

Not sure what case you are talking about, but there’s a similar-sounding recent case in North Wales where an XL Bully attacked a flock of pregnant ewes and caused over £14,000 of financial damage. The punishment in the magistrates court was that the owner was barred from owning dogs for five years and fined £900.

www.northwales.police.uk/.../

The fines are not compensation to the farmer. That would be a civil claim and would be pursued separately.

Though it seems low, fines are based on weekly earnings. The sentencing guidelines suggest this was likely a lower culpability (not intentional) but greater harm (injury to other animals) offence, which levies a Band A to Band C fine, equal to 50-150% of his weekly earnings.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/aad-owner-or-person-in-charge-of-a-dog-dangerously-out-of-control-in-any-place-in-england-or-wales-whether-or-not-a-public-place/

£900 could well be the upper end of what the courts could issue in this case.

RE: Is this a dangerous dog?

Richard Carter — Wed, 11 Oct 2023 13:02:41 GMT

So perhaps someone can explain a recent event near us- dog gets into sheep, kills and maims to a value apparently exceeding £2000, owner gets away with £100 fine????

Thought you were responsible for your dog already but apparently not?

RE: Is this a dangerous dog?

Lesley Strong — Wed, 11 Oct 2023 09:28:23 GMT

Unfortunately many people who buy these dogs are incapable of thinking more than 3 seconds into the future and dont think there is anything wrong with their psycho dog given how much strop you get about asking them to put a muzzle on. I am too old for wrangling these dogs now so refuse to go anywhere near them if they arent controlled

Theoretical consequence if prison if it kills someone wouldnt even occur to them

RE: Is this a dangerous dog?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 11 Oct 2023 08:43:01 GMT

[quote userid="4181" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30784/is-this-a-dangerous-dog/242581#242581"]if you abolish the DDA then people would be freer to buy an even wider variety of such 'stupid dogs' than presently[/quote]

Rob Loxley Sure, but if they think they might end up with a life sentence if they buy a dog which subsequently goes and tears a child's face off, I bet you sales of stupid dogs would plummet overnight. Even a career criminal is going to think twice about owning one (I mean it's one thing getting banged up for something you do yourself and think you will probably get away with, quite another getting banged up because your dog unexpectedly went nuts).

I may be reading too much into it, but I read 'stupid dogs' in inverted commas to mean that you don't entirely agree with that description.

To my mind, a pet dog bred to have the temperament and build to cause severe injury is a stupid dog to own. A bit like you can argue that automatic weapons in America are just stupid.

RE: Is this a dangerous dog?

Rob Loxley — Fri, 06 Oct 2023 12:42:13 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30784/is-this-a-dangerous-dog/242577#242577"]Perhaps we should just abolish Dangerous Dogs Act, and instead make dog owners face the same jail term for injury or death caused by their dog as if they had committed the offence themselves. They are, after all, completely responsible for buying such a stupid dog in the first place, and then for not making sure it couldn't harm anyone.[/quote]

DDA flaws aside; flipping this round, if you abolish the DDA then people would be freer to buy an even wider variety of such 'stupid dogs' than presently; and you remove legislation that might prevent serious injury or death [we can certainly debate whether it achieves this aim], leaving something that can only sanction after serious injury or death occurs.

I would however agree that the maximum sanction under the current legislation needs reviewing

RE: Dangerous dog?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 05 Oct 2023 17:31:14 GMT

David Shepherd Well, that kinda illustrates the difficulty of where to draw the line, doesn't it.

Personally, I would have had the dog put to sleep about 9 bites ago. I couldn't live with the risk.

Perhaps we should just abolish Dangerous Dogs Act, and instead make dog owners face the same jail term for injury or death caused by their dog as if they had committed the offence themselves. They are, after all, completely responsible for buying such a stupid dog in the first place, and then for not making sure it couldn't harm anyone.

I suspect even the hard nuts who think it makes them look tough owning an XL Bully would think twice if they thought they might get 20 years inside because it killed someone.

RE: Dangerous dog?

David Shepherd — Thu, 05 Oct 2023 13:33:01 GMT

CNN reported that Commander had been involved in more than the 11 biting incidents acknowledged by the Secret Service.

It said the real number was higher, with one bite requiring hospital treatment and others needing medical attention from on-site staff.