Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Elizabeth — Sat, 09 Mar 2024 10:43:11 GMT

Just read this article

https://news.sky.com/story/vets-faced-abuse-and-threats-from-xl-bully-owners-over-ban-13090541

I work where we have a lot of XL bully type dogs - the people who have them generally aren’t the sort of people to be responsible owners/breeders. I don’t really get why the BVA are pushing this. I understand it must be traumatic having to put down the nice dogs where the owners aren’t able to keep them( not had to do that yet) and I understand the worries regarding another breed taking over the XL bully slot, but surely something like the ban had to happen?

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 05 Feb 2024 11:43:33 GMT

[quote userid="3584" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30775/anyone-else-edgy-when-dealing-with-xl-bullies/243637#243637"]Anthony Dennison How is the staff member who was bitten on the face?[/quote]

She's physically recovered, but we're providing some counselling for her. I'm shook up just thinking about it and it wasn't me that was got!

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Noweia — Sun, 04 Feb 2024 10:56:30 GMT

[quote userid="11308" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30775/anyone-else-edgy-when-dealing-with-xl-bullies/243344#243344"]One of my vets got bitten on the face by a 'pocket' bully last week, was muzzled, owner tried to grab the collar when the dog started kicking off, grabbed the muzzle instead and pulled it off. Vet stood up and backed away but in a corner, dog jumped up and bit her on her chin/mouth. Had to go to hospital to be stitched up.[/quote]

Anthony Dennison How is the staff member who was bitten on the face?

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 29 Jan 2024 12:56:37 GMT

We had one in for neutering last week. Had to be sedated with the owner due to it's behaviour, and the owner insisted staying on the premises until the dog had been castrated because he's under the impression we would admit it then put it to sleep, telling the owner the dog died under the GA (apparently an XL Bully genuinely did die under GA in London recently but the internet heard of it and doxed the practice).

He was wearing a 'save the XL bully' hoodie, initially seemed very suspicious of us but we treated them normally, were nice and friendly, and they were very grateful at the end of it. Think he genuinely cares about his dog, just has been so misinformed but idiots of the internet.

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 29 Jan 2024 12:00:40 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30775/anyone-else-edgy-when-dealing-with-xl-bullies/243512#243512"]Where I have recently finished working, 4 out of the 6 vets will not euthanase a dog other than for health or behavioural/aggression reasons. [/quote]

Gosh, Clive Ansell, I'm sort of surprised and not surprised in equal measure, and wonder whether a bigger quick poll would be interesting.

Not surprised - Must sometimes go against everything you believe in to euthanase a healthy animal.

Surprised - But humans kill all sorts of animals with lesser justification than 'I don't want this animal any more'.

And in turn it raises the question of which is the worse outcome for the dog, to euthanase or to demand an unwilling owner continues to look after it.

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Clive Ansell — Sun, 28 Jan 2024 21:27:39 GMT

[quote userid="25265" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30775/anyone-else-edgy-when-dealing-with-xl-bullies/243511#243511"]There is no route for owners to abide by the legislation without veterinary involvement[/quote]

There lies one of the flaws of the legislation. Owners are legally required to register and neuter, or euthanase, their dogs. We are under no legal obligation to do so whatsoever, although there maybe professional or moral obligations to do so. I agree it is a complex moral and ethical issue.

[quote userid="25265" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30775/anyone-else-edgy-when-dealing-with-xl-bullies/243511#243511"]so saying it is nothing to do with us is disingenuous.[/quote]

Sorry, I could have worded my previous post better. I meant that although owners are legal required to jump through x-y-z hoops, we are under no such legal obligation at all.

Where I have recently finished working, 4 out of the 6 vets will not euthanase a dog other than for health or behavioural/aggression reasons.

So far I have only been asked to euthanase 2 XL Bully's, and both had a history of aggression, so no moral or ethical dilemma at all really with those.

Where I am currently working we see very few; only a handful registered and the practice have closed their books to new clients at the moment because of workload becoming unmanageable.

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Ben Walker — Sun, 28 Jan 2024 19:34:03 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30775/anyone-else-edgy-when-dealing-with-xl-bullies/243507#243507"]Nothing to do with the veterinary profession[/quote]

“Comply with” is different from “abide by”.

There is no route for owners to abide by the legislation without veterinary involvement, so saying it is nothing to do with us is disingenuous. Vets have the ability to restrict the options available to owners within the law. It is a complex moral question whether we should do so.

I know this is a divisive issue. We discussed our moral position as a team back when the legislation was introduced and I don’t expect everyone on this forum to agree with my actions.

I believe this was the best of a bad set of options for the dog and I wish the law hadn’t created the situation where that was the case.

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Clive Ansell — Sun, 28 Jan 2024 12:32:45 GMT

[quote userid="25265" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30775/anyone-else-edgy-when-dealing-with-xl-bullies/243506#243506"]The consensus seems to be that no vet should be complying with the law.[/quote]

The legislation is directed at and applies too dogs' owners, and it is their responsibility if and how they comply or not. Nothing to do with the veterinary profession (Unless a vet owns an XL Bully type of course). We can help owners comply through the services we offer, but ultimately the responsibility is 100% theirs.

We are free to accept or decline any related work, and there is no legal obligation to carry out euthanasia if we do not wish too. I would support any colleague who decides to refuse to euthanase a healthy dog for no other reason that its named breed type.

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Ben Walker — Sat, 27 Jan 2024 20:59:52 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30775/anyone-else-edgy-when-dealing-with-xl-bullies/243321#243321"]

Just had statements from the RCVS and BVA reporting vet teams being on the receiving end of abuse from campaigners.

I asked how many reports of this kind of thing, no word on that yet.

Meantime, have any of you experienced it?

[/quote]

I take my previous comment back. We're suspending our work for the time being as the harassment has meant I'm not convinced we can continue to attend home visits safely.

Attended a seven-month-old for euthanasia on the owner's request. All sorts are being claimed and the original breeder has filed an RCVS complaint. Thankfully all well-documented, discussed with VDS in advance, and contemporaneous photos taken. Fingers crossed the PIC agrees with my judgement. The consensus seems to be that no vet should be complying with the law.

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 08 Jan 2024 16:53:18 GMT

Good god. It's beyond me why anyone would want to own a dog like that.

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 08 Jan 2024 14:06:49 GMT

[quote userid="11308" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30775/anyone-else-edgy-when-dealing-with-xl-bullies/243344#243344"]ne of my vets got bitten on the face by a 'pocket' bully last week[/quote]

would this be big enough to be covered by the legislation?

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 08 Jan 2024 12:08:42 GMT

On the other end of the spectrum, I've spoken to a client today with a dog that is reactive, but clearly not 'bully type'. She is wanting the neutering proof certificate signing asap and is moving to Scotland before the end of January, despite me insisting that the dog wouldn't be identified as a bully and wouldn't have these issues. She thinks the dog will be taken off her and destroyed.

Highly bizarre

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 08 Jan 2024 11:12:39 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30775/anyone-else-edgy-when-dealing-with-xl-bullies/243321#243321"]Meantime, have any of you experienced it?[/quote]

Had one email asking for our views, which was roundly ignored.

One of my vets got bitten on the face by a 'pocket' bully last week, was muzzled, owner tried to grab the collar when the dog started kicking off, grabbed the muzzle instead and pulled it off. Vet stood up and backed away but in a corner, dog jumped up and bit her on her chin/mouth. Had to go to hospital to be stitched up.

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Clive Ansell — Sun, 07 Jan 2024 10:10:33 GMT

Reception report that we've has some random calls asking for opinion, but we only tend to give specific advice as to what folk need to do, and then usually only to registered clients. We are not taking on new clients at the moment, books are full, so any XL Bully euthansias or neuterings for non clients have to go elsewhere.

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Ben Walker — Sat, 06 Jan 2024 18:17:04 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30775/anyone-else-edgy-when-dealing-with-xl-bullies/243321#243321"]Meantime, have any of you experienced it?[/quote]

We’ve had one strange text from someone asking for our thoughts on the issue but no abuse.

Only seen one so far and the dog had a complex medical history that meant they had been considering euthanasia already. They didn’t claim the compensation.

Been contacted this week by the dog warden who has a dog who has hit their seven days, but can’t rehome due to the legislation.

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 06 Jan 2024 08:48:37 GMT

No major issues. A bit of hassle with one male dog's owner that has no medical history before rescuing so we've had to do AMH and testosterone bloods to confirm castration status .. they're pretty expensive!

A couple of dogs that haven't been muzzle trained so they're hurting their own faces trying to get them off.

Only one PTS so far.

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 05 Jan 2024 19:03:21 GMT

No major issues.

Have had a few whining about having to comply with the legislation, a few more stating they will ignore it and and not comply, and a few asking for the recorded breed in their clinical records to be changed, which of course is refused.

Had very few requests for PTS, and an increased demand with a waiting list of 4-6 weeks for neutering

No abuse thus far. We just tell folk who are unhappy with it, or unsure, to write to their MP, or contact the police or DEFRA for advice.

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:05:32 GMT

Just had statements from the RCVS and BVA reporting vet teams being on the receiving end of abuse from campaigners.

I asked how many reports of this kind of thing, no word on that yet.

Meantime, have any of you experienced it?

https://www.vetsurgeon.org/b/veterinary-news/posts/rcvs-and-bva-condemn-abuse-of-veterinary-professionals-over-xl-bully-dogs

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 11 Dec 2023 12:04:59 GMT

We've had 3 brought in by the police this week to be put to sleep. 2 came from the same house, each dog brought in a police van by themselves with then 2 dog unit cars with them. One aggressive one had bitten the owner then nipped a dog handler on her calf (no broken skin) so we were advised to use a stick. Both of them friendly as anything, wagging away until the sedation kicked in.

Third one was brought in after it went for the other dog in the house over a toy. No questions, just PTS.

Also have a client that is travelling back home to Iraq with their 4 month old XL Bully to escape the ban (by car.... *screams in AHC/EHC*)

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 30 Nov 2023 20:39:27 GMT

The practice had it's first PTS yesterday. Devastated owner, but terrified he'll lose his home. The dog showed no aggression at any point. It looked like a chunky boxer cross, but the owner was, quite correctly, just following the breed description and law. It did indeed have many of the breed characteristics.

I also had 3 separate XL bully booster appointments this week.

2 of them were gorgeous dogs, just like big teddy bears. Lovely owners who intend to comply fully with the law, although they are understandably upset at the restrictions being placed on their dogs. I doubt their dogs would hurt anyone. I'm castrating one, a lovely 3 year old male weighing 45kg, on Monday.

The other booster was a nervous aggressive XL bully - fully due to it having an owner who is, I'm afraid, an idiot. He is finding ways to get around the law. No castration booked, but it certainly wont be fun for us when if/when it is done! I don't doubt his dog will continue to be a danger to the public as he really doesn't think his dog is a problem.

The legislation simply won't work for the purpose it is designed for - protecting people from idiots with dogs.

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 30 Nov 2023 16:37:38 GMT

We had one a few days ago. Chap drive to London to collect it, brought it back home. It fought with his other 2 dogs so he brought it in for euthanasia. Trouble was the chip wasn’t registered to him. Took 2 hours for a colleague to sort it. Ended up with a rescue centre taking it.

Lovely dog though

interestin that on radio 4 yesterday Christine Middlemiss (AHVLA) said that owners can claim £200 towards euthanasia

oh…. The dog warden in this area wouldn’t take it, message was PTS,, guess their neck wasn’t on the line

Neil

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:17:07 GMT

[quote userid="9179" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30775/anyone-else-edgy-when-dealing-with-xl-bullies/243083#243083"]i'm curious what other vets think about this - I have found trazodone utterly useless at calming aggressive dogs to be honest[/quote]

I haven't had loads of experience, but i do think the gaba/traz combo has helped in a few of my cases. The practice I'm working in use it a lot more than I've seen previously, and anything that reduces the stress to the dog, owner and vet has to be good!

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Chris Milligan — Tue, 28 Nov 2023 20:14:41 GMT

[quote userid="7898" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30775/anyone-else-edgy-when-dealing-with-xl-bullies/242765#242765"]A dose (without ace) the night before, then a dose 2h before the consult works reasonably well for most.[/quote]

i'm curious what other vets think about this - I have found trazodone utterly useless at calming aggressive dogs to be honest

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Sarah Keir — Sun, 26 Nov 2023 14:16:50 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30775/anyone-else-edgy-when-dealing-with-xl-bullies/243033#243033"]or owner must return the form[/quote]

I can see a loop hole there!

RE: Anyone else edgy when dealing with XL Bullies?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 25 Nov 2023 11:06:22 GMT

Latest RCVS Guidance

DEFRA advice

How do we do this, 1) if it wasn't carried by the same practice? 2) if there is no clinical history? 3) If the dog was not scanned for a microchip at the time of neutering how do we know it's the same dog? 4) How do we know it is not a bilaterally cryptorchid male?

If your XL Bully is already neutered

A vet must confirm that your XL Bully is already neutered and fill in the VCN01 form with the owner. The vet or owner must return the form to Defra by:

31 December 2024 for dogs less than one year old on 31 January 2024
30 June 2024 for dogs more than one year old on 31 January 2024