How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 28 Jul 2023 20:26:17 GMT

[quote userid="3685" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30698/how-much-responsibility-does-a-client-have-to-protect-cats-coming-into-their-property-from-their-dogs/241999#241999"]Both children were terrified because of the generic 40kg dog that bounds over, jumps up at them, knocks them over and barks in their faces whilst the owner stands 100yds away shouting ‘ooh, he won’t bite, he loves children’. Why should my children (or any other person for that matter) be subjected to that repeatedly, so much so that the mere sight of a dog running toward them scares them?[/quote]

To me, that would come under the heading of dangerously or recklessly out of control, which is a criminal offence that the police should take seriously.

What you descibe is/should be ground enough for a prosecution, but there is the real risk of injury, even God forbid serious or fatal injury - dog may not be aggressive, it may not be intended, but may knock someone over who bangs their head with a resulting cerebral haemorrhage. It may be rare or very unlikely but it is possible.

As an aside, the group of 5 practices I am working for have had 5 serious cases of dog on dog attacks this week, 3 on the same day. All large breed potentially aggressive dogs, that were off lead and attacked smaller dogs which were on leads. So thats 5 distraught owners with multi £1000 bills, one unlikely to survive, another likely to lose a limb, one owner attacked and had to go to hospital for a badly injured arm, and one of the attacking dogs pepper sprayed in the eyes. Police not interested/waste of time and space.

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Nicola Cole — Thu, 27 Jul 2023 21:48:19 GMT

[quote userid="12670" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30698/how-much-responsibility-does-a-client-have-to-protect-cats-coming-into-their-property-from-their-dogs/241945#241945"]Jeeze... "makes someone worried that it might injure them" sounds subjective.[/quote]

It is subjective.

But then we all know that the term ‘under control’ is followed very loosely by a subset of dog owners. I have 2 children-one (4y) is terrified of dogs (so much so that for a while he struggles to leave the house), the other (11y) was terrified and is now just massively scared (as I have spent years trying to gently introduce her to friends’ gentle dogs who are actually ‘under control’).
Both children were terrified because of the generic 40kg dog that bounds over, jumps up at them, knocks them over and barks in their faces whilst the owner stands 100yds away shouting ‘ooh, he won’t bite, he loves children’. Why should my children (or any other person for that matter) be subjected to that repeatedly, so much so that the mere sight of a dog running toward them scares them?

So yes, the rules are subjective. But just because the owner is stood 100yds away shouting ‘he’s fine’, don’t think that that individual dog doesn’t have a real and lasting effect on the child in front of them. ‘Under control’ should actually mean under control….

Slight tangent to the op, but a response to the ‘subjective’ nature of it.

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

hilary warner — Fri, 21 Jul 2023 07:26:22 GMT

Thank you for this reply and hopefully this is the correct answer if not dog owners really are stuck. A similar situation happened in our village and the owners of the cats have fenced their garden to keep the cats in, which seems very sensible.

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Silvia Maldonado — Fri, 14 Jul 2023 13:55:45 GMT

Jeeze... "makes someone worried that it might injure them" sounds subjective. That would leave any issue with a neighbour open to be sued, for you can proof the dog attacked you or your animal, but how do you proof the dog was intimidating enough to be worried? Do you follow me? would it be enough if the dog barks (at you) or should he get into your property at least? What if there is no CCTV?

As for this case, it seems it has got personal now.

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Clive Ansell — Wed, 12 Jul 2023 13:32:44 GMT

They shouldn't and they don't.

Maybe the owner of the dogs should inform neighbours that their dogs may attack cats, then it is up to cats owners to keep them in or not as they wish?

Should cars be banned from their street in case one hits a cat?

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

janine redman — Tue, 11 Jul 2023 19:51:03 GMT

Why should anyone have to muzzle their own dogs in their own secure garden just in case a neighbourhood cat enters it

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Jill Butterworth — Tue, 11 Jul 2023 19:49:36 GMT

Muzzling the dogs when they are in hs garden should surely solve the problem?

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

janine redman — Sun, 02 Jul 2023 20:39:03 GMT

How sad

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Miriam Lodewyks — Sun, 02 Jul 2023 20:37:15 GMT

I was recently asked to euthenase an18m old goofy, lovely but large pitbull type because he’d got out of his garden 3x and killed 3 cats.
I was really torn because I did not perceive any threat to humans from this chap, and felt he was simply behaving “to type”, and that it’s not his fault his owners hadn’t taken proper measures to secure/muzzle him… but then equally aware that if he mistook a toddler for a cat next time all hell would be unleashed.

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Cinzia Gandini — Sat, 01 Jul 2023 15:07:15 GMT

[quote userid="4181" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30698/how-much-responsibility-does-a-client-have-to-protect-cats-coming-into-their-property-from-their-dogs/241868#241868"]dangerously out of control[/quote]

I ahve found something interesting on the blue cross website

quote "

Controlling your dog in your own home or on someone else’s property

Allowing your dog to be ‘dangerously out of control’ is against the law on private property, as well as in public. An exemption is in place if a dog bites someone who has no legal right to be in your home, for example a burglar. "

https://www.bluecross.org.uk/advice/dog/wellbeing-and-care/dog-laws-uk

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Cinzia Gandini — Sat, 01 Jul 2023 14:54:54 GMT

Yes but it seems to be referred to humans for example a delivery man, the postie...etc getting into a private property or farm animals, it doesn't mention intruders like neighbour's animals that some dogs in their normal behaviour would chase and harm for example rabbits, birds or cats. Probably it also counts a previous behaviour and the temper of the dogs

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Cinzia Gandini — Sat, 01 Jul 2023 14:49:48 GMT

I'd add that the cat can be considered an intruder, not a guest or someone coming regularly into the garden. I've found this website with some interesting reading.

https://doglaw.co.uk/

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Rob Loxley — Sat, 01 Jul 2023 14:09:07 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30698/how-much-responsibility-does-a-client-have-to-protect-cats-coming-into-their-property-from-their-dogs/241866#241866"]It DOES NOT MENTION the owners garden, otherwise that would be defined. Therefore if the cat gets in the garden,there is no case to answer[/quote]

Under section 3(1) of the 1991 Act (as amended by the Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014, (the ‘2014 Act’)), if any dog is dangerously out of control in any place, including all private property, the owner, or person for the time being in charge of the dog, is guilty of a summary offence.

A dog shall be regarded as dangerously out of control on any occasion on which there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will injure any person or assistance dog, whether or not it actually does so, (section 10(3) Dangerous Dogs Act 1991). This is not an exhaustive definition and the ordinary meaning of the words should still be applied. If a dog is factually deemed to be acting in a way that could be termed ‘dangerously out of control’, for example attacking livestock, a prosecution may still be brought.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30698/how-much-responsibility-does-a-client-have-to-protect-cats-coming-into-their-property-from-their-dogs/241857#241857"]

useful resource is the new CPS summaries that tie up both together:

www.cps.gov.uk/.../dangerous-dog-offences

[/quote]

thanks, I'd not seen these

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 01 Jul 2023 11:32:40 GMT

If you read this (putting my Foot and Mouth, let's examine the wording, hat on)

This makes perfect sense

Look at the places where a dog is dangerously out of control considering that it's designed for people. All are places that you wouldn't expect a dog attack

Now look at out of control

That reference to 'it attacks someone's animal' is in reference to the places defined in the first section

This is a cover all for dog on dog attack I expect

It DOES NOT MENTION the owners garden, otherwise that would be defined. Therefore if the cat gets in the garden,there is no case to answer

Neil

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Cinzia Gandini — Fri, 30 Jun 2023 09:26:19 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30698/how-much-responsibility-does-a-client-have-to-protect-cats-coming-into-their-property-from-their-dogs/241857#241857"]CPS summaries [/quote]

I think the Dog acts are meant for injuries to humans and severe disruption for farm animals, while animals disputes are more for a third party insurance, if that. it's not only a dog that can kill a cat but also a human with a car if the neighbour's cat is in your garden and you don't see it. So here's a discussion about did the dog do it intentionally? or is it the dog normal behaviuor to chase a cat like for a cat chase the neighbour's bird or fish or hamster or rabbit...

https://www.axa.ch/en/privatkunden/blog/at-home/law-and-justice/house-pets-dispute.html

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Cinzia Gandini — Fri, 30 Jun 2023 09:12:19 GMT

Does it apply to the hamster sneaking into the neighbour's garden and getting attacked by the neighbour's cat? I think all these things happening in a private enclosed garden where the neighbour's possessions shouldn't be there in the first place, would be a matter of third party responsibility and insurance But if they are so worried why not asking a lawyer?

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

David Mills — Fri, 30 Jun 2023 08:34:22 GMT

Indeed, it’s not incorrect it’s just not the whole picture. Case law is obviously the interpretation of statue through the courts.

useful resource is the new CPS summaries that tie up both together:

www.cps.gov.uk/.../dangerous-dog-offences

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Rob Loxley — Fri, 30 Jun 2023 07:06:58 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30698/how-much-responsibility-does-a-client-have-to-protect-cats-coming-into-their-property-from-their-dogs/241822#241822"]

robloxley said:
A court could also decide that your dog is dangerously out of control if either of the following apply:

it attacks someone’s animal

This is overly reductive, and ultimately only true in some specific circumstances which do not apply to the cats in this case.

[/quote]

My quote is from https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Cinzia Gandini — Wed, 28 Jun 2023 21:55:36 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30698/how-much-responsibility-does-a-client-have-to-protect-cats-coming-into-their-property-from-their-dogs/241822#241822"]killing of two rabbits was not considered to be ‘dangerous’[/quote]

I think the dangerous thing is to humanise animals, or worst try to change their nature to please humans. A cat is a predator, carnivore not vegan, they don't eat carrots and the don't need carbohydrates. a diabetic cat is a nonsense in nature and yet we manage to create the impossible...

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

David Mills — Wed, 28 Jun 2023 21:19:31 GMT

[quote userid="4181" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30698/how-much-responsibility-does-a-client-have-to-protect-cats-coming-into-their-property-from-their-dogs/241803#241803"]

A court could also decide that your dog is dangerously out of control if either of the following apply:

it attacks someone’s animal

[/quote]

This is overly reductive, and ultimately only true in some specific circumstances which do not apply to the cats in this case.

There are two pieces of legislation covering this and some case law.

- Dogs Act 1871 (amended 1906) is a civil act and defines another animal as livestock (cattle, sheep, pigs, mules, asses, horses, goats, poultry). Dangerous is taken as its regular meaning.

- Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 (with amendments). The only animals specifically mentioned are an assistance dog or livestock in terms of injury by another dog. Prosecution can only normally occur if there was reasonable belief the dog would have injured the assistance dog/livestock or actually did to be deemed "dangerously out of control".

Case law (Sansom v Chief Constable of Kent 1981) provides that it was in the nature of dogs to chase, wound and kill other small animals. In this case, the killing of two rabbits was not considered to be ‘dangerous’. Prosecutors should be mindful of this case when considering cases involving dog attacks on animals smaller than itself.

So, no, in this case, the owners of the dogs would not be liable given the statute and case law in place.

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Cinzia Gandini — Wed, 28 Jun 2023 14:58:14 GMT

How much responsibility does a client have to protect squirrels coming into their property from their dogs?

Practically the trend to consider cats owned like little slaves in my opinion it's going too far. I can understand it could apply for pedigree cats bought by the owner, but for the remaining part of cats, the ones that find you and love to come over for dinner and sleep over it's a bit excessive. Well, also a pedigree cat makes its decision by coming back to you once out in the garden And some do not come back they just leave. I think cats are free animals like squirrels and birds and do not need to be linked to any human. Just my opinion

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 28 Jun 2023 00:38:58 GMT

[quote userid="4181" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30698/how-much-responsibility-does-a-client-have-to-protect-cats-coming-into-their-property-from-their-dogs/241803#241803"]

A court could also decide that your dog is dangerously out of control if either of the following apply:

it attacks someone’s animal

[/quote]

Could also decide... in other words, who knows?

[quote userid="9440" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30698/how-much-responsibility-does-a-client-have-to-protect-cats-coming-into-their-property-from-their-dogs"]neighbours keep contacting him and asking him to keep the dogs indoors when they continue to let their other cats out . [/quote]

I think the neighbours have got a bit of a nerve.

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 27 Jun 2023 09:24:55 GMT

Rob Loxley Wow. Really surprised about that.

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Rob Loxley — Tue, 27 Jun 2023 09:06:38 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30698/how-much-responsibility-does-a-client-have-to-protect-cats-coming-into-their-property-from-their-dogs/241791#241791"]Surely if the cat enters an improperly secured garden, ie a completely open one, the dog owners have done nothing wrong. [/quote]

Overview

It’s against the law to let a dog be dangerously out of control anywhere, such as:

in a public place
in a private place, for example a neighbour’s house or garden
in the owner’s home

The law applies to all dogs.

You can report a dog that’s out of control.

Some types of dogs are banned.

Out of control

Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:

injures someone
makes someone worried that it might injure them

A court could also decide that your dog is dangerously out of control if either of the following apply:

it attacks someone’s animal

RE: How much responsibility does a client have to protect cats coming into their property from their dogs?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 26 Jun 2023 07:50:25 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/f/non-clinical-questions/30698/how-much-responsibility-does-a-client-have-to-protect-cats-coming-into-their-property-from-their-dogs/241790#241790"]If the cat enters a properly secured garden the dog owners have done nothing wrong.[/quote]

Surely if the cat enters an improperly secured garden, ie a completely open one, the dog owners have done nothing wrong.