Will the monarchy survive?

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 25 May 2023 16:58:02 GMT

[quote userid="8182" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241634#241634"]Out of curiosity Arlo can you say, personally, where you would draw the line? [/quote]

Eamon McAllister Difficult. But in general, I don't like things which cause people to suffer. So the more someone's behaviour causes other people to suffer, the more strongly against it I feel. But of course things are rarely that simple. So the woman who kills a man may have caused his parents huge suffering, and that would be unforgivable till you find out that it was her husband and he was a wife-beater.

Sorry, I struggle to think of an easy place to draw the line.

But generally I wouldn't draw it in someone's else's bedroom!

More likely to draw it somewhere around the point where people get injured or killed, or suffer loss.

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241635#241635"]He is the head of Church of England. [/quote]

Dinu Catilina I am an atheist, so his position as head of the Church of England makes no odds to me.

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241635#241635"]This is a subject like Brexit and Boris Johnson. You either believe in it or not, the rest is pretty much irrelevant. [/quote]

True. But there is also a question of strength of feeling. I believe fidelity is a good thing. But I accept that there are circumstances where people will be unfaithful, and I don't feel strongly enough to denounce them for it (If I felt so inclined in the first place).

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 25 May 2023 13:30:09 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241631#241631"]

Yes, and a great many don't divorce! Actually, I wonder whether more people have affairs than get divorced. I guess nobody knows.

And is it necessarily a bad thing to have an affair but remain married? Sometimes I think it can be the best thing to do. I know at least one couple which stayed together for the children and it appears to have been the right thing to do.

I'm not trying to justify infidelity. Just playing devil's advocate.

Isn't a monogamous existence an entirely human construct anyway? Subject to the ever changing benchmark of human values.

[/quote]

He is the head of Church of England.

This is a subject like Brexit and Boris Johnson. You either believe in it or not, the rest is pretty much irrelevant.

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Eamon McAllister — Thu, 25 May 2023 12:48:27 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241631#241631"]Personally, I find it difficult to be judgemental about other people's behaviour unless it reaches a rather higher threshold of awfulness. [/quote]

Out of curiosity Arlo can you say, personally, where you would draw the line?

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 25 May 2023 08:33:51 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241562#241562"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
I think it is pretty clear that Charles wanted to marry the Queen from the start, but was stopped from doing so, and then driven to marry Diana.

Hm, what kind of man is he then? If he can't stand up to his own family, how can he stand up to another head of state?

[/quote]

Dinu Catilina, sorry, missed that earlier, but I am not sure there is much call for Prince Charles to stand up to another head of state these days. I mean we aren't living in Henry VIII's time any more! But be that as may, I think very easy to sit there on the touchline throwing stones, but I can sympathise with a man who, aside from the family pressure, probably felt the weight of 1000 years of history on his shoulders.

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241562#241562"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
It must have been bloody awful for both Charles and Diana, and I can quite understand why they both ran to find comfort in someone else's arms.

Absolutely. But there is also a thing called divorce that many do before running in other people's arms.

[/quote]

Yes, and a great many don't divorce! Actually, I wonder whether more people have affairs than get divorced. I guess nobody knows.

I'm not trying to justify infidelity. Just playing devil's advocate.

Isn't a monogamous existence an entirely human construct anyway? Subject to the ever changing benchmark of human values.

Personally, I find it difficult to be judgemental about other people's behaviour unless it reaches a rather higher threshold of awfulness.

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 15 May 2023 09:15:45 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241556#241556"]

I'm not of the belief that if a person of influence makes a mistake, their head should automatically roll, but I think the king of the country should be judged quite harshly. He is now the head of the church of England and our monarch and his mistress (who became his second wife), in my opinion, has no right to be queen. Absolutely if his first wife died (!) and then he remarried that would be ok, but not as a longstanding extramarital affair. This is not speculation - it's in his authorised biography, remember Diana's book and Panorama interview (3 of us in this marriage)....

I'm not a religious man, but adultery is right up there.......

[/quote]

Hm, same crime but she shouldn't be a queen and he should be a king? Takes two to adulter! Is this a verb?

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241558#241558"]I think it is pretty clear that Charles wanted to marry the Queen from the start, but was stopped from doing so, and then driven to marry Diana.[/quote]

Hm, what kind of man is he then? If he can't stand up to his own family, how can he stand up to another head of state?

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241558#241558"]It must have been bloody awful for both Charles and Diana, and I can quite understand why they both ran to find comfort in someone else's arms.[/quote]

Absolutely. But there is also a thing called divorce that many do before running in other people's arms.

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 15 May 2023 08:29:13 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241556#241556"]I'm not of the belief that if a person of influence makes a mistake, their head should automatically roll, but I think the king of the country should be judged quite harshly.[/quote]

Boris Johnson had (probably still has) far more power and influence than the King does. If I remember correctly, you are a big fan of his?

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Arlo Guthrie — Sun, 14 May 2023 09:18:43 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241556#241556"]I'm not a religious man, but adultery is right up there.......[/quote]

Interesting.

I think it is pretty clear that Charles wanted to marry the Queen from the start, but was stopped from doing so, and then driven to marry Diana. She then turned out to have all sorts of mental health issues. I'm sure there's a question of whether they were cause or effect, but I think probably a mixture of the two, after all, not every woman (or man) who finds themselves in a loveless marriage becomes bulimic. Either way my point is that the situation was evidently far, far, far more complicated than 'man runs off and commits adultery'. It must have been bloody awful for both Charles and Diana, and I can quite understand why they both ran to find comfort in someone else's arms.

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 13 May 2023 23:26:04 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241543#241543"]Michael Woodhouse I am curious why you think it a travesty for his wife to be Queen?[/quote]

I'm not a religious man, but adultery is right up there.......

Bang out of order.

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 12 May 2023 17:27:59 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241543#241543"]

Dinu Catilina I think more than anything else, it's just that the monarchy gives us a continuity which doesn't exist for elected representatives. And certainly in more recent history, the monarch exists (indeed survives) to serve the country, whereas elected politicians are to a much greater degree in it for themselves.

I think these qualities remind us of things we should look for in elected politicians, and I think the monarch also helps create a 'vibe' in this country which means we just wouldn't tolerate a despot.

[/quote]

Suppose there was a big absolute Labour majority in the Commons and the Right Honourable (what a joke) Slimeball Blair was Prime Minister. Suppose he tried to push through a law that the Labour Party was the only party permitted and that any election should have only one candidate. It couldn't be done because the law ultimately flows from the monarch. Now suppose we had an elected President. Blair gets himself elected President, gets together with his Commons and Prime Minister to get himself made President-for-Life.

The monarchy guards against despotism precisely because the monarch is not elected.

Besides that, we like having a King or Queen. Other people may think that weird, but we do. Other countries are free to do what they may prefer.

Whenever "republicans" say "we should have a President instead" my only reaction is: Why? What possible advantages would it bring?

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241543#241543"]I read that the police had reason to believe that protestors were going to scare the horses on the procession, which would have fit the criteria for 'public nuisance'.[/quote]

I think the police have already admitted they made a bit of a cock-up. For instance, arresting three Westminster Council workers who were handing out flip-flops to ladies crippled by too long standing in high heels, and rape alarms to young ladies who might have been vulnerable on the way home. My guess is that the overall operation had so stretched the police that there was no senior officer around to exert a bit of common sense.

Remember that it was not only republicans who were going to "demonstrate", it was also the Stop Extinction Oil nutters and the unpleasant thugs of Animal Rising.

The republicans arrested were just arrested, and released later. They weren't beaten up or tortured or disappeared or sent to re-education camps.

Anyway, despite a few of them being arrested, the republicans got their noisy day on the streets. That is of course their right and I defend that right. However when I see somebody holding a banner saying "Not My King" and yelling the same, I can only think of two things to say. Firstly, actually he is your King although you may not like it. Secondly, if you feel he's not your King, why are you here at a non-event, rather than at home with your feet up or doing the garden or walking the dog?

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 12 May 2023 15:44:05 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241526#241526"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
how it protects us from despots

How? How more than an elective president in a functional democracy?

[/quote]

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241526#241526"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
The police say that there were grounds to believe that the protesters were going to disrupt the coronation (they found gear which the protesters could use to lock themselves to things), and arrested them for that reason

And why would this be illegal, why shouldn't protesters be allowed to protest?

[/quote]

For clarity, I did not say that the protesters should not be allowed to protest, and nor did the police. The right to protest is not an absolute one:

https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/advice_information/pcsc-policing-act-protest-rights/

I read that the police had reason to believe that protestors were going to scare the horses on the procession, which would have fit the criteria for 'public nuisance'.

(Mind you, reading Liberty's explanation of the changes of the law with regard to protest, it does seem a bit like: "You can protest, as long as you don't make too much noise and you stay away from everyone else, and you don't do anything to draw attention to yourself.")

[quote userid="2675" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241529#241529"]You think all the Middle East princes, presidents and other world leaders in the congregation and guest list were just on a shopping trip or wanted to see Rishi?[/quote]

Exactly the point that someone else made to me the other day. I think all that pomp and ceremony helps us punch above our weight internationally.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241534#241534"]

Charles is a moron, and I believe a huge threat to the monarchy. The travesty that his mistress is 'queen' genuinely upset me. I fail to see what he has achieved of note? Talks to his plants. Helped build his idealogical Poundbury. Keen promoter of homeopathy.

Yes he's done charity work, but so have all the working royals. He's also done his share of ribbon cutting. If you look at his views on farming - we would all starve to death very quickly.

[/quote]

I think that's a very unkind evaluation of what King Charles has achieved. Others would argue that his views on architecture and the environment were ahead of their time, and that his charitable work has achieved as much as the rest of the royal family put together. The charity claims it has helped a million young people turn their lives around.

I too find his views on homeopathy a little hard to stomach, but I do not for a second doubt his commitment to serving the country.

Michael Woodhouse I am curious why you think it a travesty for his wife to be Queen?

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 12 May 2023 00:03:16 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241528#241528"]but I actually prefer Charles. He's more like his dad was (and Princess Anne) - and I like them too! I like people who speak up for the things they are passionate about, even if its not the 'popular opinion' and seem to have no time for sycophants. The queen acceded to the throne so young, she never really had time to make the impact that Charles has done.[/quote]

Yes he's done charity work, but so have all the working royals. He's also done his share of ribbon cutting. If you look at his views on farming - we would all starve to death very quickly.

I think we look at a man with his head in the sand who is unwilling to look at the science behind so many of his views. So out of touch with the British people. I really think the only hope we have is he dies/abdicates and William takes over. I have some faith there.

(I was a big supporter of Elizabeth II, enjoyed the jubilee, mourned her death. Didn't even watch the coronation, could not care less. A feeling seemingly shared by our village, where the platinum jubilee was a 3-day event with a massive lead up - one crappy bring and share dinner for Charlie).

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Richard Carter — Thu, 11 May 2023 13:44:07 GMT

And of course the millions spent by tourists in hotels and restaurants so that they could catch a glimpse.

This discussion is a bit like the one about disbanding the red arrows- you can do it but after that you can close shop- the prestige and the international goodwill that generally is given to this country because whatever the locals think, a lot of these republics really like robes, ceremony that goes back before their countries existed, soldiers on horseback in 18th century uniforms.
You think all the Middle East princes, presidents and other world leaders in the congregation and guest list were just on a shopping trip or wanted to see Rishi?

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 11 May 2023 10:12:33 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241526#241526"]The UK had a queen who was majestic in so many ways that any predecessor will just pale in her shadow.[/quote]

I had no problem with the late queen, but I actually prefer Charles. He's more like his dad was (and Princess Anne) - and I like them too! I like people who speak up for the things they are passionate about, even if its not the 'popular opinion' and seem to have no time for sycophants. The queen acceded to the throne so young, she never really had time to make the impact that Charles has done. Nobody can deny she served the country well - but more as a figurehead than a 'doer'.

I hope Charles doesn't lose his voice completely now he's King - I know they are meant to be non-political.

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Dinu Catilina — Wed, 10 May 2023 22:01:24 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive"]how it protects us from despots [/quote]

How? How more than an elective president in a functional democracy?

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241504#241504"] the idea of a republic with someone like Boris Johnson or Donald Trump as a president would have to be a far worse alternative. [/quote]

How? I despise Trump but I don't se how his term was so much worse than other presidents term. The president has some power, not all the power.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241524#241524"]The police say that there were grounds to believe that the protesters were going to disrupt the coronation (they found gear which the protesters could use to lock themselves to things), and arrested them for that reason[/quote]

And why would this be illegal, why shouldn't protesters be allowed to protest?

Now, I come from a former communist country where it was drummed in our early education that monarchy is bad and evil.Truth is that evil is evil and a democracy is democratic with or without a kind/queen. The issue the British monarchy has now is that King Charles is no Queen Elizabeth. And it's not his fault, it it hard to be that. The UK had a queen who was majestic in so many ways that any predecessor will just pale in her shadow. I feel sorry for him. Maybe the public is closer to his son, William and that might save the monarchy.

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Eamon McAllister — Wed, 10 May 2023 10:33:24 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241510#241510"]Take That and The Muppets FFS. God help us. [/quote]

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 10 May 2023 08:32:59 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241522#241522"]

On coronation day itself, there were 64 arrests in the immediate area on nonsense trumped up charges based on new laws designed to prevent peaceful, harmless and legitimate protesting. 60 of these were released without any charges being brought, and the police have since attempted to apologise.

We're becoming increasingly despotic.

[/quote]

The police say that there were grounds to believe that the protesters were going to disrupt the coronation (they found gear which the protesters could use to lock themselves to things), and arrested them for that reason.

https://news.met.police.uk/news/update-arrests-made-during-policing-operation-for-the-coronation-466461

That seems entirely fair and reasonable to me. And if the police got it wrong, and the locking gear was meant for something else, well, tough sh¹t to the protesters.

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 09 May 2023 21:06:54 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241516#241516"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
it protects us from despots

Exactly.

[/quote]

I'm not so sure that it does or will?

We're becoming increasingly despotic.

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 09 May 2023 16:07:55 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive"]various surveys found the young are just not very interested. [/quote]

The young are just not very interested in a lot of things!

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive"]the PM of Saint Kitts and Nevis says his country will not be free until Charles isn't its head of state. [/quote]

Lots of the Commonwealth countries do not have the British Sovereign as their head of state. St Kitts and Nevis could become a republic practically tomorrow if the people want to. "The country will not be free until..." is just political b.s. though. In what way are they not free now, that they will be with a president?

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive"]it protects us from despots[/quote]

Exactly.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241506#241506"]Lionel Richie![/quote]

Leaves me cold.

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 09 May 2023 14:20:28 GMT

[quote userid="2235" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241508#241508"]And three of "Boy"band Take That[/quote]

And thats's the best we can come up with?. Take That and The Muppets FFS. God help us.

Seriously, where were the likes of iconic rock stars like Cliff Richard, The Rolling Stones, Queen, even Status Quo, Iron Maiden and old Ozzy if you could stopping falling over I suppose. Been around for decades, and ingrained within British Culture.

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 09 May 2023 14:14:57 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241506#241506"]You heathen. Lionel Richie![/quote]

Just the one?

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Rob Davis — Tue, 09 May 2023 14:14:19 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241506#241506"]

Clive Ansell said:
no real heavyweight performers.

You heathen. Lionel Richie!

[/quote]

And three of "Boy"band Take That

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 09 May 2023 10:47:42 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive/241504#241504"]no real heavyweight performers.[/quote]

You heathen. Lionel Richie!

RE: Will the monarchy survive?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 09 May 2023 10:38:51 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive"]On top of which, various surveys found the young are just not very interested. [/quote]

It seems the opposite where I live. Many young people, and young families, have been involved with staging garden and street celebrations for the coronation, whereas folk of may age bracket (59), me included, have just not been interested.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30651/will-the-monarchy-survive"]So do you think the monarchy will continue to adapt and become more relevant, in enough time to save it?[/quote]

Doubtful. Whether that is good or bad, I don't know.

If you asked me 20 years I would have said the sooner we get rid of it/them, the better. Now, I am not so sure? the idea of a republic with someone like Boris Johnson or Donald Trump as a president would have to be a far worse alternative.

PS: I though the coronation concert was a flop and went off halfway through to load the dishwasher. There was almost nobody that I recognised, no real heavyweight performers.