Where does the environmental impact of veterinary practice really fall?

RE: Where does the environmental impact of veterinary practice really fall?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 18 Apr 2023 10:18:23 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/where-does-the-environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice-really-fall/241338#241338"]EVs are a con, and will be obsolete in 10-15y when hydrogen fuel finds its commercial seat.[/quote]

I really hope you're right. Because the infrastructure required for everyone to drive EVs could/will never happen.

RE: Where does the environmental impact of veterinary practice really fall?

David Mills — Sun, 16 Apr 2023 21:22:14 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/where-does-the-environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice-really-fall/241315#241315"]1000's of EV's and their batteries come to the end of their lives? will they be disposed of or recycled, and what will the environmental impact be? [/quote]

EVs are a con, and will be obsolete in 10-15y when hydrogen fuel finds its commercial seat. Driving around in my (ULEZ complaint) 15yo petrol convertible in London, I smile wryly at the hybrids and "sporteco" models around. I honestly think why bother, that electricity you're using comes mainly, or mostly, from fossil fuels, and the battery has been mined in China and shipped on a diesel ship for 1000s of miles. As someone said - greenwashing.

The best EV around is the Jag E-Pace as it spends most of its time back at the dealers.

RE: Where does the environmental impact of veterinary practice really fall?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:29:05 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/where-does-the-environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice-really-fall/241312#241312"]PS Where's the lithium coming from for the batteries? Here goes, one of the few places on the planet not tied up by the Chinese etc is.......... yup Ukraine[/quote]

Another big question is what will become of the lithium when 1000's of EV's and their batteries come to the end of their lives? will they be disposed of or recycled, and what will the environmental impact be?

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/where-does-the-environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice-really-fall/241312#241312"]The greenest car is the one you have, that's why my 18 year old diesel is staying on the road[/quote]

I'm of the same opinion. My 12 year old diesel Audi consumes no oil (The 1 litre can I was given when new remains unopened), and recent emission readings for an MOT test are the same year on year. When it comes to the end of its life, I will look seriously at EV's, but I wouldn't buy one at the moment.

Although diesel cars are made out to be the bad guys, when I bought mine in 2011 they were marketed and sold as eco friendly with low emission s, which is still reflected in the £20 a year VED tax disc. At the time HMRC were giving huge tax breaks for low emission cars like mine. Now we are told they are dirty and polluting and we should replace them with EV's. Confused.

RE: Where does the environmental impact of veterinary practice really fall?

janine redman — Fri, 14 Apr 2023 13:32:26 GMT

I would agree that keeping the vehicle you have got for as long as possible should negate the fossil fuel use. Mine is only 12 years old at the moment

RE: Where does the environmental impact of veterinary practice really fall?

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 14 Apr 2023 12:51:25 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/where-does-the-environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice-really-fall/241306#241306"]It may appeal to the Lib Dems and Curly Sues cycling their cat to the hospital, but Jesus there are greater things to tackle.[/quote]

Marginal gains, but you are right in reality

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/where-does-the-environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice-really-fall/241311#241311"]I'm not yet sold on EV's. I can see there may be a cost saving, but they are expensive to buy and electricity is now expensive, and the biggest thing for me would be the limited driving range. Many are marketed as zero impact on the environment, which of course is not true[/quote]

This will surprise, but I agree with this. The concept of shifting something that weighs over 1 tonne (the battery) from a source where fossil fuels are used to make it, power is lost in the wires and I have heard only 15% of the derived energy actually goes into the car is in my view a bit of a whitewash. Consider that 5% of UK energy comes from Drax and that's burning Canadian trees. Hybrids really are the Emperors new clothes, a totally rubbish idea, sold as a green alternative. If you want to be green, cycle 3 miles, where 50% of car journeys are made. The greenest car is the one you have, that's why my 18 year old diesel is staying on the road

Neil

PS Where's the lithium coming from for the batteries? Here goes, one of the few places on the planet not tied up by the Chinese etc is.......... yup Ukraine

RE: Where does the environmental impact of veterinary practice really fall?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 14 Apr 2023 12:28:55 GMT

How many vehicles, and how many miles do they cover?

Just wondering how much difference it will make in terms of financial saving or environmental impact?

I'm not yet sold on EV's. I can see there may be a cost saving, but they are expensive to buy and electricity is now expensive, and the biggest thing for me would be the limited driving range. Many are marketed as zero impact on the environment, which of course is not true

I read somewhere that diesel cars consume between 1 and 2% of all diesel or heavy oil consumed; the majority being burnt in industrial heating, and the running of lorries, buses, trains, and particularly ships. So if every diesel car was taken off the road the difference to the environment would be close to square root of FA

RE: Where does the environmental impact of veterinary practice really fall?

David Mills — Thu, 13 Apr 2023 22:53:38 GMT

Whatever we do is a pure drop in the ocean compared to dentists and our medical colleagues.

One use kits, ET tubes, drapes, syringes, needles, etc.

As said above without any really meaningful data, alas, we are at the mercy of the irrational “anything we do is good”. It’s nonsense. Environmental protection isn’t about NIMBY henpecking of minor players. > 90% is from large industry. Not a few vet practices. It may appeal to the Lib Dems and Curly Sues cycling their cat to the hospital, but Jesus there are greater things to tackle.

RE: Where does the environmental impact of veterinary practice really fall?

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 13 Apr 2023 14:58:08 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/where-does-the-environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice-really-fall/241299#241299"]

I've never seen one, have you?

You will get the odd reaction but never an abscess

[/quote]

Yes, seen a few over the years. Varying drugs, but one of the more common offenders is Synulox, maybe its the dried solution that accumulates on the top of the bung?

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/where-does-the-environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice-really-fall/241299#241299"]We've been here before, but again the last point 'much fewer reactions' seems to indicate they are common when they aren't in my world[/quote]

Definitely more reactive without a fresh needle. As are my nurses who are very set on replacing needles, and I'm on their side.

I can see your point in terms of the amount of waste caused Neil, but unfortunately I don't think we'll agree on this part of the subject. There are definitely other things we can look to. For example, with the subject of needles alone - making sure that there is one DOOP bin for needles only, one DOOP bin for syringes/bottles. Needle bin fills up more slowly as more can be fitted in so you're not sending as many of these away.

We're in the process of looking at getting our ambulances changes over to EVs. IVC are encouraging this and providing favourable support. We're only at the first step in the process but will be interesting to see how it goes.

RE: Where does the environmental impact of veterinary practice really fall?

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:58:07 GMT

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/where-does-the-environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice-really-fall/241298#241298"]

Couple of reasons.

1) Sterility - using a multi-use bottle of something reduces the risk of injection site abscesses

[/quote]

I've never seen one, have you?

You will get the odd reaction but never an abscess

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/where-does-the-environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice-really-fall/241298#241298"]2) The difference in sharpness of a needle after it has been through a rubber bung compared to a new one is huge. Especially consider vaccinations, when you are often going through two bungs (diluent and freeze dried pellet). Don't change the needle - lots of reactions when giving the injection. Change the needle - much fewer reactions[/quote]

We've been here before, but again the last point 'much fewer reactions' seems to indicate they are common when they aren't in my world

If the average vet changes a needle 20 times a day that's 200.000 'wasted' needles a day (assuming 10.000 vets) that's a tremendous amount of waste, akin to the NHS banning reusing ET tubes on the off chance of a single case of something I can't recall

Neil

RE: Where does the environmental impact of veterinary practice really fall?

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 13 Apr 2023 11:34:19 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/where-does-the-environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice-really-fall/241219#241219"]2) Many vet routinely use 2 needles to inject, one to draw up, another to inject. Multiply this up, by the consults/vets, it's massive, why do this?[/quote]

Couple of reasons.

1) Sterility - using a multi-use bottle of something reduces the risk of injection site abscesses

2) The difference in sharpness of a needle after it has been through a rubber bung compared to a new one is huge. Especially consider vaccinations, when you are often going through two bungs (diluent and freeze dried pellet). Don't change the needle - lots of reactions when giving the injection. Change the needle - much fewer reactions

RE: Where does the environmental impact of veterinary practice really fall?

ian bates — Thu, 06 Apr 2023 15:39:43 GMT

How about the pharma waste of the 28day rule......?

RE: Environmental impact of veterinary practice - where does it really fall?

janine redman — Sun, 02 Apr 2023 21:04:55 GMT

I asked if needle caps could be reused , considering the huge number that must be used every day in medical practice. Like milk bottle lids I wondered if they could be recycled and the answer was no ! Just think how many tonnes of plastic wasted .

RE: Environmental impact of veterinary practice - where does it really fall?

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 02 Apr 2023 12:39:12 GMT

Sorry turboposting

disposables, do the maths. If 20.000 vets use one less needle a day? In COVID, nurses had to change gloves between each room let alone patients. That’s a box a day, 30.000 nurses. Each have to be made, transported and disposed off. As a species, we really need to question these practices

Neil

RE: Environmental impact of veterinary practice - where does it really fall?

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 02 Apr 2023 12:34:41 GMT

Forget PV panels, put solar vacuum solar water heaters on the roof. They cost us about £3500, 14 years ago. On a hot day they heat up to 65 degrees and will easily fill a large tank with more to spare. They can be used for swimming pools. If you visit SE Asia and China you see these, not PV panels. Practices are used during the day, that’s when hot water is produced. Why they are not used/pushed I have no idea. Consist of glass and metal, far less envoironmental impact than PV panels as well

Neil

RE: Environmental impact of veterinary practice - where does it really fall?

Rob Loxley — Sun, 02 Apr 2023 10:14:58 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice---where-does-it-really-fall/241219#241219"]Environmental impact, oh gosh where do you start?[/quote]

with the easy things or the things that make a sizeable difference?

Solar PV generation can make a huge impact on our electricity use and payback can be 5-10 years, but large capital cost; for example?

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice---where-does-it-really-fall/241219#241219"]Disposables[/quote]

All good thoughts, but doing all this does it make a significant change in our environmental impact?

RE: Environmental impact of veterinary practice - where does it really fall?

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 02 Apr 2023 05:02:20 GMT

Interesting that a discussion has gone to cars

Environmental impact, oh gosh where do you start?

1) Overuse of wormers/flea control in general practice

I wince when I see dogs on Nexgard monthly. These chemicals end up in rivers/waterways. Don't get me started on droncit every 3 months.

Look at the insect population which are crashing at present (remember wiping your windscreen of bugs? If you don't, Houston we have a problem)

2) Many vet routinely use 2 needles to inject, one to draw up, another to inject. Multiply this up, by the consults/vets, it's massive, why do this?

3) Disposables. Thought really ought to go into the use of cotton wool, hot water, etc etc. The bins at the end of the day are mind blowing

Loads more

Neil

RE: Environmental impact of veterinary practice - where does it really fall?

Nicola Cole — Sat, 01 Apr 2023 19:36:22 GMT

[quote userid="16672" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice---where-does-it-really-fall/241215#241215"]range anxiety is not really an issue for the vast majority with newer vehicles.[/quote]

Yep, there’s not many people that do more than 250 miles in a day for work etc (granted, there are some!) so easy top up on an evening when back at base.
On longer journies we need to stop anyway for children, so by the time we’ve removed 2 children, suitably attired, from the car, sent both for wees, got a coffee and a sandwich we’re back to being fully charged (supercharger) and off again-it certainly doesn’t ‘add’ time to the journey for us.

Yep, I had no idea which countries had the main supplies of lithium. Apparently Australia is currently the biggest exporter, but there are South American countries that retrieve it from salt water areas in some way (rather than mining in Australia)-environmental impact of the South American method currently unknown but may be bad. I would presume working conditions in Australian mines are ok (!), but rural South America?

RE: Environmental impact of veterinary practice - where does it really fall?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 31 Mar 2023 19:32:43 GMT

[quote userid="16672" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice---where-does-it-really-fall/241215#241215"]the argument against lithium, nickel mining etc is a bit of a moot point [/quote]

Hmm. It depends upon the conditions for the people doing the mining, and very much upon which countries own the supplies of lithium.

RE: Environmental impact of veterinary practice - where does it really fall?

Martin Hamilton — Fri, 31 Mar 2023 18:11:45 GMT

I agree Alastair - range anxiety is not really an issue for the vast majority with newer vehicles. I recently purchased an IONIQ 5 - gets 300 miles in the summer, 250 in the frigid Canadian winter (-20C or less). Charging takes ~20 mins in the summer and ~30 mins in the winter at a level 3 rapid charger. These are sorted around everywhere here, with many along the motorway (highway). After about 300 miles of driving (about 4 hours) I need to stop for a pee, coffee and a bite to eat, by which time it's charged. Fortunately newer vehicles have complex battery management systems and charging is by default set at 80% max charge to prolong battery life, but can be overridden for longer journeys. To be realistic, how many of us are out there driving cars that are 20yrs + old? (is this really a problem?). All that'll happen is older vehicles will have reduced range.

As an added bonus electricity is cheap here in Ontario as we get all our energy from hydroelectric and nuclear (~0.05p/kwH), and charging from empty to full on a public rapid charger costs ~£5.50.

Sustainability of everyone having an EV or two remains to be seen - we don't seem to have a problem pillaging the earth for oil, coal, and gas, so I feel that the argument against lithium, nickel mining etc is a bit of a moot point when comparing EVs with internal combustion engine vehicles. Should ideally be encouraging more public transit, cycling, and vehicles for longer distances and when cargo has to be transported.

The Ontario Veterinary Medical Association recently had a breakdown of estimated emissions for a small animal GP - vast majority were from heating, deliveries from suppliers, and the commute to work.

RE: Environmental impact of veterinary practice - where does it really fall?

Alastair Welch — Fri, 31 Mar 2023 11:55:25 GMT

I have recently swapped my work vehicle to an EV (3.6l Diesel VW Amarok to an Audi Q4). My wife aleady drives an EV so I am pretty used to them.

I was concerned that I could not fit all the kit I wanted to carry into an EV, but found someone who makes bespoke boot boxes and have a box which uses the whole of the boot space and I can still get my three dogs on the back seat.

I do about 25k miles a year and my Q4 when full has (real world) 210 miles when its below freezing and will perhaps be 240 in the summer. I average about 100 miles a day for work, mostly small journeys, my wife does about 15k miles a year and so far (only 7 weeks into us with having an EV) we have both managed to charge enough at home (single 7kW charger) after work and overnight (I am currently looking at options to install a dual charger).

I occasionally do circa 250 work miles in a day and I will need to factor in a stop at a more rapid charger but these are widespread and (busy travel days excepted) almost always available.

We regularly do 200 miles off one charge (likely stop for lunch and charge if it is free and not if it is not) when driving to Wales but there is no doubt that odd days combined with really long journeys (BH's Christmas to Scotland etc) mean there are queues at charging stations but for me at least the day-to-day convenience outweighs the odd journey where it is a bit painful.

Most people do not drive long distances on a regular basis and as long as you can charge at home it is a very convenient (and much less expensive) way to run a vehicle.

RE: Environmental impact of veterinary practice - where does it really fall?

Nicola Cole — Fri, 31 Mar 2023 08:22:17 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice---where-does-it-really-fall/241211#241211"]sitting in a queue at services for ages to get a fer percent into a battery[/quote]

Does very much depend on the electric car and what chargers they can use

RE: Environmental impact of veterinary practice - where does it really fall?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 31 Mar 2023 00:47:47 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30615/environmental-impact-of-veterinary-practice---where-does-it-really-fall/241209#241209"]How many veterinary employers actively encourage cycling to work, using public transport, car sharing, or have charging points for electric cars?[/quote]

No. We all need our gas guzzling 4x4's for work.

Charging points, an interesting thought - who's going to pay for the electricity? I don't pay to put petrol in the receptionist's car, why should she charge up at my expense.....

Honestly, I think the entire concept of electric cars to be rather short-sighted. Not sure the grid can cope. If you see the hassle of long journeys and sitting in a queue at services for ages to get a fer percent into a battery - I have a full tank and a 500 mile range with a pee and a Costa all within 5 minutes. Unsure how the 2nd hand market will go when a massive bill lands after 10 or 15 years for a new battery. Do we even have enough lithium etc?

In the grand scheme of things, all healthcare will always be wasteful as we need everything sterile and sharp. I think we do many of these things for a warm feeling inside, rather than actually making any real difference.

Maybe I shall just issue all the girls a mooncup and then I've ticked all the boxes on two threads in one

RE: Environmental impact of veterinary practice - where does it really fall?

Clive Ansell — Thu, 30 Mar 2023 20:37:47 GMT

How many veterinary employers actively encourage cycling to work, using public transport, car sharing, or have charging points for electric cars?

RE: Environmental impact of veterinary practice - where does it really fall?

Steven Odell — Thu, 30 Mar 2023 20:36:03 GMT

But the accurate data is hard to find.

This is our recent example: We've had a debate at work about the use of disposable vs reusable cotton gowns. An extremely keen recycler was horrified at the thought of disposable gowns, but we then thought about it. Manufacture cotton gown with all of the water usage and waste involved at the beginning of the process, then usually needs to be soaked for ages (especially after I've used it!), then needs to be washed in a washing machine which uses more water, detergent and electric etc; is wrapped in a non-reusable plastic envelope to be sterilised in our autoclave requiring more electric and water, vs disposable gown which has been prepared with some of the above factors but some economies of scale?..... That's before we talk about possible reduced effective barrier 40/50/100/150 (who knows?) cycles down the line for the reusable gown and the likely consequences in terms of infection, wound breakdown and antibiotic use.

Who knows? That's one small example. Must say that life in practice is difficult enough without having to look at this scenario hundreds of times for everything we use on a daily basis, without a definitive answer. Without tying myself and the staff in knots we're recycling the obvious stuff, turning off the lights when we don't need them, and making sure the heating isn't constantly on. Best we can do, especially as the Chinese will have opened another coal-fired power station in the time its taken me to write this!!!

RE: Environmental impact of veterinary practice - where does it really fall?

Rob Loxley — Thu, 30 Mar 2023 12:49:39 GMT

My point is that we need some data as to where our environmental impact lies, before we can make meaningful differences