How would you like to see VetSurgeon.org improved?

RE: How would you like to see VetSurgeon.org improved?

Bob Russell — Wed, 22 Mar 2023 09:08:03 GMT

None of your posts have upset me personally or otherwise. Some came over as poking a bear with a long stick! There are some arguments where nobody wins and these are best dealt with by taking a deep breath and walking away from.

Heated discussions are quite amusing especially when between two people that you know will not agree. A bit like those videos on YouTube where you know a crash is coming. It adds a bit of spice to things!

If someone has genuinely upset me I am more than likely to let them know or just ignore.

RE: How would you like to see VetSurgeon.org improved?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 21 Mar 2023 22:57:44 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/how-would-you-like-to-see-vetsurgeon-org-improved/241123#241123"]If it was the discussion that I remember, there were posts from Gillian that also made me 'suck my teeth out'. [/quote]

Really? I'm genuinely sorry if any of my posts have upset you personally, but I certainly have never intentionally done so.

Trolling is not about disagreeing with someone.

RE: How would you like to see VetSurgeon.org improved?

Bob Russell — Tue, 21 Mar 2023 11:26:09 GMT

If it was the discussion that I remember, there were posts from Gillian that also made me 'suck my teeth out'. It does take two to tango and trolling here (loosest sense) can be stopped in its tracks quite easily.

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 21 Mar 2023 09:06:41 GMT

Turboposting ... but also to ask anyone reading this ... when you post a new discussion, please could you post the title in the form of a question (clinical or non clinical)

In advance of this becoming a questions-based forum, I'm editing titles myself to become questions, but it would help if you start doing it to.

Incidentally, I am finding that so far, it:

a) Focuses the mind on what it is I (or anyone) wants to know from everyone

b) Makes a more compelling subject title (both because it is more focused, and because questions just are).

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 21 Mar 2023 09:02:08 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241078#241078"]If you go back to the COVID discussions, then I think you'd have to ban Gillian and anyone who replied to her under your rules, It was very much Daily Mail "think of the children" over-reaction on the mild flu like ilness that hasn't gone away and isn't killing anyone.[/quote]

Michael Woodhouse - The pandemic taught me that we all have a unique personal relationship with risk (and certain other things, actually, like the value of money), and I think it is simply wrong to criticise other people because they have a different relationship with risk. Sure, one can try and persuade them that the risk may be higher or lower than they think, but if they disagree and feel uncomfortable with the level of risk you are happy with, that's very much their prerogative.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241078#241078"]

I'd be quite amazed if any of the so called "trolling" was related to genuine veterinary discusiion.

[/quote]

It makes no odds what the discussion concerned. Trolling is trolling. Even by my relatively loose standards, I remember someone posting a remark in response to Gillian which made me suck my teeth out, and which I regret to this day that I did not delete within seconds.

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:48:22 GMT

Thanks for proving my point Michael.

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 18 Mar 2023 00:42:45 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241074#241074"]Gillian Mostyn Sorry to hear that, because we have a very strict good manners rule in here now (one strike and you're out), and I think that problem has now been cured.[/quote]

If you go back to the COVID discussions, then I think you'd have to ban Gillian and anyone who replied to her under your rules, It was very much Daily Mail "think of the children" over-reaction on the mild flu like ilness that hasn't gone away and isn't killing anyone. I think this is where Dinu Catilina point comes in - it not ALWAYS right to be nice. That of course runs both ways

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241074#241074"]You were much more regular in the past! I hope I can tempt you back with the idea of making this THE place to ask a veterinary question [/quote]

I'd be quite amazed if any of the so called "trolling" was related to genuine veterinary discusiion. That said, I think it's some of the extra discussion and "banter' that makes this more of a community.

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 17 Mar 2023 17:54:27 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241064#241064"]but only for people over a certain age.[/quote]

People over a certain age have never looked at Facebook and have no intention of doing so.

Their lives are somewhat richer as a result.

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 17 Mar 2023 17:48:35 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241074#241074"]Absocompletelylutely.[/quote]

Arlo, admittedly I'm not particularly observant, but I can't remember when I last saw a prominent advertisement for vetsurgeon.org in any kind of veterinary printed media. Granny and eggs spring to mind, but I'm pretty sure it's still axiomatic that if you want people to come to a website you need to advertise it heavily all over the place.

It's a long time since I looked at the Super Soaraway Vet Wreck, because it's gone right down the pan, but I do skim through Veterinary Tmes, Veterinary Edge and all the other stuff that thuds through the letter box – I need something to read over breakfast and they catch the debris when I slobber my Shredded Wheat and Puffed Oats.

If and when you advertise, I think you should be aggressive. The days when "knocking copy" was frowned upon seem to have gone.

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 17 Mar 2023 15:20:33 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241072#241072"]I personally do not feel comfortable posting here any more.[/quote]

Gillian Mostyn Sorry to hear that, because we have a very strict good manners rule in here now (one strike and you're out), and I think that problem has now been cured.

And of course as we move to a question based format, that reinforces the good manners rule, because if our objective is to create the best possible environment for asking questions, we cannot have anyone feeling scared to ask, or scared to reply.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241072#241072"]When my life is busy, or other interests are at the forefront, I rarely look on vetsurgeon[/quote]

That wasn't always the case though, was it? You were much more regular in the past! I hope I can tempt you back with the idea of making this THE place to ask a veterinary question (ie sharing some of your experience and knowledge with newer members of the profession).

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241072#241072"]You'd need some form of notification or reminder to get people to come look[/quote]

Absocompletelylutely.

This is central to the next site upgrade.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241072#241072"]ensure there is always something of value to read when they get here.[/quote]

I think questions fulfil that requirement nicely. They are either something you think you can answer, or something you would like to know the answer to!

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Bob Russell — Fri, 17 Mar 2023 14:05:15 GMT

Oddly enough I don't remeber ever being trolled on here! I post on some quite contentious subjects and know I am always right.

Some trolling is probably inevitable but if you treat everyone with respect and generosity this community has always been fine. There will always be some subjects that raise hackles and even proceeding with caution is going to receive a robust reaction.

It does surprise me to see the amount of posts on VV that would be better posted here.

This forum is not dead, any more than FB is.

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 17 Mar 2023 11:56:38 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241071#241071"]Thing is, we are competing for people's eyeballs[/quote]

I go on facebook a lot because lots of other aspects of my life are on there. Friends and family, hobbies, local information etc. I go on vetsurgeon simply to look at vet related discussions. So you're always going to be at a disadvantage with engagement.

I personally do not feel comfortable posting here any more. If someone I don't know trolls me on facebook, it doesn't matter to me. But getting trolled here was way too personal.

When my life is busy, or other interests are at the forefront, I rarely look on vetsurgeon. Its not deliberate - I'm just not thinking about it. But I'm still checking in with facebook many times a day - but then just 'happen upon' vet discussions that I may choose to engage with. I would never have gone onto facebook simply to look at a vet page - they just benefit from the algorithm that ensures I see them.

You'd need some form of notification or reminder to get people to come look, and then ensure there is always something of value to read when they get here. A daily tip, a joke, a case discussion, a game, or anything really, which makes the 'effort' worthwwhile. 'Click bait', if you like?

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 17 Mar 2023 10:23:59 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241070#241070"]Go for it if you can afford to, I don't think it's about competing with Vet Voices as such but offering something more mature rather than a load of panicky nonsense which makes up around 80-90% of FB groups.[/quote]

Thanks David. Thing is, we are competing for people's eyeballs, but I agree with the point you're making, and I do think that moving to the question format is that: something more mature.

Each day I work on this, I see more benefits:

Focuses the mind when composing a post. What is it you want to know from the community?
It plays to our strengths over other social media - ie space for detailed answers, poster profiles/quals to give context to answers, not filtered by facebook for posts you'll react to, easy to refer back to.
It's rewarding for me (which is important, actually). If at the end of a day I have help connect people to answer each other's questions, that's a result!
Titles in the form of a question are more compelling (as reason questions are so often used for email subjects, as they lead to greater open rates)
We have some good resources behind the scenes which I can bring to bear on this, such as Improve teachers.
We can gamify it, or not. In other words, reward members who help the community most. If this takes off really well, I am thinking BIG here
It simplifies the whole site structure, which will make upgrading easier.

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

David Mills — Fri, 17 Mar 2023 10:00:31 GMT

Go for it if you can afford to, I don't think it's about competing with Vet Voices as such but offering something more mature rather than a load of panicky nonsense which makes up around 80-90% of FB groups.

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 16 Mar 2023 17:35:30 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241066#241066"]Would I use neil@vetsurgeon.org....no[/quote]

Well, I used to offer these email addresses but had to stop when Google started charging me (a lot) for the pleasure.

The more people I've spoken with, and the more I've thought about things, the more I am convinced that focusing on questions is the way forward.

And a couple of other benefits - first is that it gives me a whole new sense of purpose here (getting the best answers to questions is a far more rewarding exercise than presiding over a shrinking community!), and secondly, it gives me great raw material with which to engage more people on other social media platforms (ie get them to come and take part here from time to time.

I've already started implementing changes on VetNurse and so far, a 100% positive reaction.

This has legs!

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 16 Mar 2023 12:25:24 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241065#241065"]

Dinu Catilina that may be because you just dont work in the spheres where they exist:

https://www.doctors.net.uk/

[/quote]

I know and take a lot of doctors on cycling trips. They use the email addresses for doctors quite a lot, almost as a 'badge of honour' What these places do is provide a community feel and a sense of identity.

Would I use neil@vetsurgeon.org....no, would I use neil@RCVS.com or Neil@lookatmeI'mavet.com ....no, but I do use Neil@tandem-club.org.uk, so clearly even aged aged cynic has it in them

Neil

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 16 Mar 2023 11:39:56 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241062#241062"]But times and generations have changed and I don't know of any forum that goes strong other than Redit[/quote]

Dinu Catilina that may be because you just dont work in the spheres where they exist:

https://www.doctors.net.uk/

https://engx.theiet.org/

But what you and Michael have highlighted is the benefit of VetSurgeon for answering questions (which could become even better when we bring to bear the resources of Improve), and that is where I am headed!

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 16 Mar 2023 11:20:27 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241062#241062"]Arlo, I'm sorry to be cruel but I don't think being nice helps all the time, especially if you're stimulated to throw good money after bad money.[/quote]

Dinu Catilina I know, and I can take it from you!

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241062#241062"]I mean, look, even your own clinical editor posts more on vet voices than on vetsurgeon.[/quote]

Ha, I know. We discussed that, and I think a) he is regularly on Facebook anyway, and b) he finds it easier to post there. The latter can be fixed. The former is an advantage that FB has, but only for people over a certain age.

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241062#241062"]I think you are better off looking for an entirely new option/platform rather than upgrading what you have.[/quote]

I'm interested in what you think an entirely new platform would bring? (It is an option I have been discussing with developers, but I specifically wonder what it is YOU think could be transformational over this platform).

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 16 Mar 2023 11:13:20 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241059#241059"]Is the solution to embrace Facebook more? Have a VS closed FB group just for vets? [/quote]

I have thought about this (and in fact did set one up) but it seems a bit pointless to me. What could our facebook group offer over the myriad of others? And if I just send all the traffic to a Facebook group, then the only person who benefits is Zuckerberg (whereas at least here the ad revenue goes back into the profession, or my wallet!)

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241059#241059"]Is there a way of integrating the content into the site, and keeping threads neater and more usable? If I put a post on Facebook it shows in the news section of my website so something is possible.[/quote]

There isn't, AFAIK, a way of integrating facebook discussions off site. You can embed individual posts off site, but that's not the same.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241059#241059"]I just use the forum really. Don't use the site for much else.[/quote]

Well, quite a few people read stories in the news column, and we get lots of people visiting for jobs. But I think vet news doesn't tend to be something you follow, rather something you find in response to a search for info about something, so that's something that I guess most people dip in and out of, and if you're not looking for a job ...

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241059#241059"]I know what you've tried to do with 'experts' but the threads are stale and dry, with some feeling of people looking down [disapprovingly] from their ivory tower. [/quote]

Hmm - I think the feeling of people looking down is more of a reflection of your own insecurities (that's not quite what i mean, but sort of), than of experts actually looking down. Almost every referral practitioner I have ever met is very aware of the fact that their caseload is different to that of a GP, and very aware of being perceived as 'ivory tower' and do NOT look down on their colleagues. But I guess it is easy for you to read the written word in that way, without the context of facial expression etc.

As to stale and dry - but they are there to answer people's questions, not get into a bunfight which always scares off referral practitioners.

That said, I do agree with:

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241059#241059"] I do think some genuine integration between the expert threads and normal threads would help[/quote]

I am toying with the idea of full integration, but posts from referral practitioners are highlighted in a different colour.

And perhaps now that we have the good manners rule, where anyone who is, for example, sarcastic to a referral practitioner will get thrown out, will prevent that happening.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241059#241059"]In absolute honesty - if the forum closes or moves to far away from the current format - I can see myself closing the tab and hardly ever coming back.[/quote]

Well, the more I discuss this, the more I am minded to go in the direction of:

a) Forums to have discussions and questions format, but LEAD on the latter.

b) This platform to be as easy and intuitive to post and share photos etc as FB

c)Integrate experts

d) develop other features for the site, such as the CPD diary that was well used in the past.

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 16 Mar 2023 11:08:40 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241059#241059"]I'm not sure I entirely agree. Information is easier to access than it ever was, many questions have already been answered in the archives. If I want a reminder how to castrate the one guinea pig I do per year - I use the search function - I don't start a new thread. I've been a vet for nearly 17 years - I don't have that many questions to ask any more. It would be an awful shame if the information resource that are the old threads, were lost.[/quote]

You are 100% correct and that's why I'm still lurking about on here. But times and generations have changed and I don't know of any forum that goes strong other than Redit

Arlo, I'm sorry to be cruel but I don't think being nice helps all the time, especially if you're stimulated to throw good money after bad money.

I mean, look, even your own clinical editor posts more on vet voices than on vetsurgeon.

I hope you make it work but I don't think you will. I think you are better off looking for an entirely new option/platform rather than upgrading what you have.

Anyhow, That's all I had to say. I hope I'm wrong :)

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Nicola Cole — Wed, 15 Mar 2023 22:24:34 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241056#241056"]when you login here, you remain logged in for donkeys, or until you logout, even if you navigate away or shut down your browser.[/quote]

Or until there is a site upgrade….

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Nicola Cole — Wed, 15 Mar 2023 22:21:51 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241056#241056"]I suspect some of the issue is also because in the past, we got a name for being a scary place[/quote]

Possibly.

But-having spoken to a few new grads over the years, none of them appear to have heard of you…

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 15 Mar 2023 21:41:30 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241041#241041"]Guys, can we just accept that all forums are dead? And they are not to come back to life ever again. [/quote]

I'm not sure I entirely agree. Information is easier to access than it ever was, many questions have already been answered in the archives. If I want a reminder how to castrate the one guinea pig I do per year - I use the search function - I don't start a new thread. I've been a vet for nearly 17 years - I don't have that many questions to ask any more. It would be an awful shame if the information resource that are the old threads, were lost.

Is the solution to embrace Facebook more? Have a VS closed FB group just for vets? Is there a way of integrating the content into the site, and keeping threads neater and more usable? If I put a post on Facebook it shows in the news section of my website so something is possible.

I just use the forum really. Don't use the site for much else. I know what you've tried to do with 'experts' but the threads are stale and dry, with some feeling of people looking down [disapprovingly] from their ivory tower. I do think some genuine integration between the expert threads and normal threads would help - keep it for experts for 2 days then open to all for discussion?

I use facebook, but don't really like it. I quite like it here, but I agree, too quiet. In absolute honesty - if the forum closes or moves to far away from the current format - I can see myself closing the tab and hardly ever coming back. I'm guessing the repeat traffic to the site is mostly to the forums?

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:18:21 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241055#241055"]I agree with Dinu that logging in, is a barrier,[/quote]

Neil, I don't quite understand that one. You have to login to all social media websites, including Facebook, Linkedin, Twitter etc. But in common with all of them, when you login here, you remain logged in for donkeys, or until you logout, even if you navigate away or shut down your browser.

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/30589/vetsurgeon-revamp/241055#241055"] Is there an answer to increase traffic? I honestly don't know[/quote]

I'm sure that the answer is multifaceted. I do believe that 'get your question answered' is a stronger proposition than 'come and chat'. I do believe that if we can come close to matching Facebook, in terms of ease of use (and we can), and if we offer something with added value, then more people will use it.

I suspect some of the issue is also because in the past, we got a name for being a scary place (either because people express robust opinions, or because it was a group of people who knew each other well, which is perhaps intimidating. The good manners dictat, combined with a shift of emphasis to questions, should help overcome these issues.

RE: VetSurgeon Revamp

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:13:17 GMT

I admit to be totally sold on the concept of this forum to ask a question or seek re-assurance

There seem to be a group of vets on here that offer sensible and very good advise in some detail, Dinu on reproduction for example. The acute kidney injury with laparoscopic spays was a great example.

Veterinary medicine has moved to more sole working and if you accept that you don't know everything then the need to ask questions exist. The group here who ask are probably on the right side of the bell curve, but I'm amazed that more vets don't use this resource.

The other outlets are

1) VIN, but you need a login and it costs £800/year?

2) Phone a friend (my wife)

3) Phone a referral centre. Now I rarely do this and only if a case needs referring or they have dealt with a case, but i get the impression that quite a few vets do this?

4) Facebook

5) Google it. I'm surprised how good the information is on there and see many many new graduates doing this, maybe even Tik Tok

I agree with Dinu that logging in, is a barrier, but I can honestly say that I get a tremendous amount of CPD and re-assurance from this place, even at 33 years qualified.

Is there an answer to increase traffic? I honestly don't know

Neil