Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

Giulia Grenga — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 21:28:55 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30530/should-vegetarianism-veganism-be-the-natural-default-position-for-veterinary-surgeons/240373#240373"]I know they say you should never judge a book by it's cover - but if you look at the photo of the guy at the top, you can already tell what kind of article we are getting. No surprise, he throws in the race card.[/quote]

‘He throws in the race card’

Off topic Martin Woodhouse but this comment made my blood boil.

Presumably you are a privileged white man who has never been on the receiving end of racism.

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

James Dunne — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 17:29:47 GMT

The issue here can be made as simple or complex as we like. There is one fact that we can all agree on: 100% of the animals that are born, die. Beyond that, this becomes an opinion-based argument and so long as animals are not let truly suffer, whether we choose to enjoy the byproducts of their demise or not, should not be a problem. Death on its own is not necessarily cruel and I have no issue with, say, eating meat provided the animal it’s from has had some sort of life. I do have a problem with rearing animals that never see the light of day and our profession making up ‘standards’ to accommodate this. You can bet that a large proportion of the same crowd who’d shout ‘cruelty’ at a hunter shooting a deer would quite happily buy their pork and not care what kind of life -or death- it had. A lot of meat produced has downward price pressure placed on the producer, which is very wrong. this is one thing that shouldn’t have the corners cut just to make it more affordable. Try selling that line though to citizen average and see where it gets us.

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

Sarah Dryden — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 15:44:57 GMT

I 100% think so! But I’m the only vegan in my practice.

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

Chris Geddes — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:55:25 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30530/should-vegetarianism-veganism-be-the-natural-default-position-for-veterinary-surgeons/240488#240488"]There is also a lot more to enriched environment than 20% more space.[/quote]

There is a bit, but the welfare goes from appaling to possibly slightly less appaling. Let's not kid ourselves. Yeah it's not great in commercial settings for any system, but I rescue hens from all categories and those from "enriched" cages are a lot worse than barn/FR/OFR. It's barely no improvement at all.

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

bob lehner — Sun, 15 Jan 2023 20:17:10 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30530/should-vegetarianism-veganism-be-the-natural-default-position-for-veterinary-surgeons/240539#240539"]That's the one, the one with the apostrophe in the wrong place. [/quote]

Yes indeed - just testing you - although of course it may have been a very exclusive club, with just the one member.

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 15 Jan 2023 19:18:39 GMT

That's the one, the one with the apostrophe in the wrong place.

I am happy to say that I have never entirely ceased to be one.

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

bob lehner — Sun, 15 Jan 2023 10:40:30 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30530/should-vegetarianism-veganism-be-the-natural-default-position-for-veterinary-surgeons/240534#240534"]Well, I was never a kid, but I was a child for about the usual length of time[/quote]

Wow - that's amazing - you were really once a child! No kidding?

[quote userid="2131" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30530/should-vegetarianism-veganism-be-the-natural-default-position-for-veterinary-surgeons/240534#240534"]I still have my Cow Pie Eaters Club badge somewhere.[/quote]

I had one of those - seem to remember you had to pay a bit extra if you wanted the one with the apostrophe...

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 14 Jan 2023 19:39:25 GMT

Well, I was never a kid, but I was a child for about the usual length of time. I certainly did read the Dandy, and the Beano too (mostly sharing them at playtime at school, my parents not actually forbidding but not quite entirely approving). Desperate Dan was much better drawn in those days and the stories were deliciously surreal. I don't think Dan was ever the same again after the death of Dudley Watkins.

I still have my Cow Pie Eaters Club badge somewhere.

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

Bob Russell — Tue, 10 Jan 2023 11:19:06 GMT

I worked in a slaughterhouse years back so observed the state of end of lay birds from all types of birds.

No hens arrived in the state in the previous images but plenty of free range birds arrived riddled with disease! There is also a lot more to enriched environment than 20% more space.

Of course a bird living in a small colony is likely to have a better time in someone elses back yard!

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

bob lehner — Mon, 09 Jan 2023 17:06:09 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30530/should-vegetarianism-veganism-be-the-natural-default-position-for-veterinary-surgeons/240457#240457"]I have a holiday booked in about 6 months time and I'm already looking forward to a 24oz Chateaubriand steak by myself that I had there 4 years ago.[/quote]

I bet you read The Dandy when you were a kid!

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 09 Jan 2023 10:21:40 GMT

You haven't lived: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plenty-Yotam-Ottolenghi/dp/0091933684

Vegetarian cuisine has come a long, long way in the last decade. There are now meat-free recipes which are very much the equal of meat-based dishes. I think Ottolenghis are probably the best. They can be complicated and time-consuming to make, but the taste is reliably amazing.

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

Clive Ansell — Mon, 09 Jan 2023 10:01:36 GMT

We have 4 vegetarians within the family, although 2 eat fish and 2 don't. Some of the dishes they prepare are really nice, and a lot can be done with a little thought and imagination. I was served up a lentil pie recently, it was really good and far nicer than any Cottage or Shepherd's pie I've eaten.

That said, I enjoy my meat and have no plans to give it up. Eat very little mass produced intensively farmed stuff, seems to me tasteless white amorphous mush. We pay a premium and buy local meat, including game, a little more expensive but well worth it.

I have never understood the idea of fake/imitation/pretend meat. Either eat meat or not.

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

Chris Geddes — Mon, 09 Jan 2023 09:15:48 GMT

I used to feel the same. Then I got with a vegetarian partner, and I still felt the same, cooking us both separate meals every evening. Then I deveoped a bit of imagination and learned to cook decent vegetarian food and although now I still couldn't imagine never having meat, I now only eat it a couple of times a week without thinking about it. A lot of the world (large parts of India for example) has always been vegetarian/vegan or even more extreme (Jain diet for example, nothing dug from the ground) for religious reasons and have developed a very nice cuisine. The issue may be that a lot of pub/restaurants really don't do it well - I certainly wouldn't order a risotto or a "veggie burger", and I'd definitely never have fake meat. I think I'd rather eat dog shit than Quorn.

Incidentally, my partner is not in the slightest bit preachy and knows that it's none of her business what anybody else eats. She bought me a pork pie back when she went shopping yesterday. I think the minority of preachy folk give the rest of the vegetarian/vegan community a bad rep.

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

cairncross — Sun, 08 Jan 2023 13:36:04 GMT

If the population was halved and veganism compulsory we would still be killing and maiming billions of sentient animals in a cruel manner annually to feed that population

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

bob lehner — Sun, 08 Jan 2023 10:21:43 GMT

[quote userid="19228" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30530/should-vegetarianism-veganism-be-the-natural-default-position-for-veterinary-surgeons/240459#240459"]Feeding the world's population is going to depend on animals for as many generations ahead as we can see.[/quote]

I guess that's the real problem - too many bloody humans on the planet - which ever way you try and feed them.

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

cairncross — Sun, 08 Jan 2023 07:55:00 GMT

Feeding the world's population is going to depend on animals for as many generations ahead as we can see. From my front step I can see hundreds of millions possibly billions being invested in new facilities new dairy units new egg units and several processing canning and freezing facilities on the fringe of the city . Animals in the food chain are not going away in any of our veterinary working lves. This really needs vets engaged enthused and passionate about making this as welfare frienfly and sustainable as possible. As a profession we should not have our head in a bucket of emotive quasi scientific selective arguments .. we really shouldn't be disengaging with food production when we are the ones educated and experienced and in a position of power to engage and insist.

World wide trade in animal produce is entirely dependant on the veterinary profession from our roles in husbandry and disease control to meat inspection portal inspection premises inspection. Billions of animals and the entire world population which is currently facing s food supply crisis . Should we walk away from these critical roles and let the animals down and the people starve ? Do we abandon or professional experience and years of scientific research on this and follow emotive leaders such as MrZephania , should we also take up the views and wisdom of Rastafarianism on his lead?

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 08 Jan 2023 00:51:15 GMT

[quote userid="5726" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30530/should-vegetarianism-veganism-be-the-natural-default-position-for-veterinary-surgeons/240445#240445"]If we ate less meat then we could use some of the land to produce food for people rather than livestock. [/quote]

I would set you the challenge to grow much other than grass or heather in large parts of the country (mine and large chunks of Scotland, included).

[quote userid="5726" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30530/should-vegetarianism-veganism-be-the-natural-default-position-for-veterinary-surgeons/240445#240445"]

If people ate meat once or twice a week then I believe that farming could be high-welfare and sustainable.

[/quote]

I suppose I pay more for my meat than average, I still cannot think of anything worse than most meals without meat. I sometimes sit and reminisce over a steak I had once, I've never done that for a meat free meal. I can say with confidence I've never picked a vegetarian meal when eating out (as long as we agreed previously that fish are a kind of meat). I will occasionally have a meat free meal at mid day, but pretty much never at night. What would you cook? All I can think of are poached eggs or cheese on toast - and neither are great.

I have a holiday booked in about 6 months time and I'm already looking forward to a 24oz Chateaubriand steak by myself that I had there 4 years ago. Does anyone have that passion for a nut roast or an avocado? I felt genuine pity watching the veggies at college munching on rabbit food while I cooked my bacon.....

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

cairncross — Sat, 07 Jan 2023 22:46:18 GMT

75 percent of the soyabean crop by weight is used to feed animals but by value the majority is used to feed humans . The valuable oil is crushed out extracted and the animals get the cake the bulk left over. It would not be economic crop without both uses . The 75 percent tgat animals get cannot be used by humans and would be waste landfill if not given to animals to convert into protein more bioavailible to humans than the original soya itself.

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

cairncross — Sat, 07 Jan 2023 22:15:29 GMT

Your feed conversion figures are probably close to being correct . What people imagine from the often quoted figures is that 70 percent if crops we grow are exclusively used to feed animals and that there poor conversion rate wastes 60 of that 70 percent . Only a small percentage of land is cropped exclusively for animal feed use. Most animal feed is by product of human cropping. The barley wheat soya etc We grow has all the good bits extracted the flour the soya oil pressed out for human use and then animals get the husks the brewers grains the poor quality reject grains the stems etc this is 70 percent of the crop the 70 percent tgat is refered to as being cropped for animal use . UN food program I think has decent figures on this and university california davis too .

Of the non grazed materials currently fed to livestock vast majority is byproduct from human food production that would otherwise be waste (some crops are exclusively grown for animals ) but world wide it is a tiny percentage and often is a welfare buffer ,,luvestock efficiently recycle the 70 percent of crops that humans waste into protein much better tailored to our needs than any plant protein.

I don't deny bad farms exist economics are hopefully squeezing them out thankfully . All crop farms kill and maim hundreds and thousands of sentient animals none provide any treatment or relief for these , why do we not campaign about this ? Is it not popular not fashionable do these animals not matter ?

I used to be mixed now small, I see much more suffering and prolonged in pets than I ever did in farm.

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

bob lehner — Sat, 07 Jan 2023 15:07:56 GMT

Well - I've kept chickens for many years and never seen a free-range bird moult like that!

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 07 Jan 2023 13:12:39 GMT

Propaganda! You know hens stop laying and moult? That is delayed in battery hens as the light is kept to encourage egg laying. When removed from the environment they drop their feathers, complete the moult and go back to laying. The same bird would likely look exactly the same if it stayed on the unit for those same 3 months. It's just uneconomical to keep unproductive animals so that is when they are culled/rehomed.

Please, no one, think that's what a typical laying battery hen looks like - not true

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

bob lehner — Sat, 07 Jan 2023 11:02:20 GMT

We used to re-home ex-battery hens. Above shows the same bird on arrival and after 3 mo of free range living.

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

KMurphy — Sat, 07 Jan 2023 10:50:43 GMT

[quote userid="19228" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30530/should-vegetarianism-veganism-be-the-natural-default-position-for-veterinary-surgeons/240441#240441"]With increasing population and finite land for cropping more marginal land needs to be utilised [/quote]

If we ate less meat then we could use some of the land to produce food for people rather than livestock. I heard the figure recently of 7kcal of plant input to convert to 1kcal of meat (I haven't fact-checked it), which doesn't seem terribly efficient. I accept there is some land that is only suitable for grazing ( I live in Scotland) but there are many systems where this is not the case and crops could be used to feed people instead. The table here shows the amount of feed required for animal protein production. Many of those small creatures dying due to crop production will be killed for animal feed so eating meat doesn't exonerate you from this.

Welfare does matter to me. It's nice that you all have experienced only farms where the animals are treated wonderfully but I have seen where welfare is not so great. I remember the case as a student where the farmer had cut the calf out of a down but alive cow so he didn't lose both animals. I'm also aware of suboptimal slaughterhouse conditions and I'm sure for every case, like the cigarettes being put out on pigs in the abattoir, that is reported there are many that aren't.

Similarly, I seem to remember that most dairy veterinary issues were production issues - ketosis, hypocalcaemia. Maybe this has changed (I only treat pets) but we have certainly had and probably still have a system of production that is harmful to the animal. I don't think these conditions need to be addressed in beef suckler herds, for example, so why do dairy cows need to suffer?

If people ate meat once or twice a week then I believe that farming could be high-welfare and sustainable. In its current form it is not good for the animal or the environment.

Wild deer need culled anyway and they live fairly normal and free-range lives. As long as whoever is shooting is a good shot, maybe we all need to eat more of this.

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

cairncross — Sat, 07 Jan 2023 03:03:34 GMT

Plant based protein sources are not at all animal welfare friendly. The number of animal deaths per kg of usable protein can be higher for plant based diets. Deaths and injuries caused by mechanical trauma, pesticides poisons environment/ecosystem destruction due to switch to monoculture systems.Any research figures are disputed and discredited by those on both sides of the argument and deliberately distorted by carrying g them out at different times of season etc but no one can deny animals don't die in the millions for crop production and these animals don't meet a swift controlled end but can die horribly over days or weeks due to injury poison starvation with no care goven or thought of.

The figures in the article and as are often used suggest that 70 or 80 percent of crops are grown to feed livestock . What is true is that livestock eat 70 or 80 percent t of crops material grown , but they eat the 70 or 80 percent we either can't or won't eat. The stems husks lower quality material left over . The brewers grains , the 70 or 80 of the soya crop left when we have exteacted the good parts humans eat. This 70 or 80 percent is no good to us we have to give this to animals to recycle into usable protein.

Livestock production does not just contribute food it contributes fuel fertiliser clothing and significant cultural and socioeconomic roles in local societies . Mechanised monoculture farming strips out entire working communities in rural areas . Livestock provides food security and diversity of production when crops fail .

With increasing population and finite land for cropping more marginal land needs to be utilised , Livestock can graze moorland mountain etc that can't be cropped they also can utilise byproduct .

Ruminant production has had a bad press with regard to methane production but its not balanced. Permanent grassland/pasture is a permanent carbon sink the layers of roots and dead leafy material sequestered year after year us a much better carbon sink than planting forest. Thd trees eventually are harvested burnt or rot and their root system sequesters much much less .

Crop monoculture lends itself to mechanisation and corporate farming you just have to look at the prairies with erosion and reducing yields or large sections of california where the water source has been bought up by big business . Whole local communities that were stable for generations and centuries fail , move to cities and many fall into deprivation. Friend is one of the few livestock farms left for miles of North East England twenty years ago every farm was mixed lots of farmers family and workers supporting the local shop pub school etc there were skilled and unskilled jobs availible .Now it's all contract crop farming he sees no one for weeks on end outside contractors roll into the area to plant and harvest for 2 or 3 days per year.

I don't like the sight of a lorry taking pigs or cattle off to slaughter , but I live in a the only European land where the population hasn't recovered from the millions of deaths due a crop failure in the 1840s a country which now feeds around 45 million people dependant on its food production meat dairy and crop. Animal production that is produced by experienced qualified farmers who spot problems before I can . I have been in most local abbetoirs and cannot see how they are anything but clean hygienic places with washbays and safety measures every few feet.

RE: Should vegetarianism/veganism be the natural default position for veterinary surgeons?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 06 Jan 2023 21:56:09 GMT

[quote userid="6897" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30530/should-vegetarianism-veganism-be-the-natural-default-position-for-veterinary-surgeons/240437#240437"]I seem to recall in the early days there were lots of problems with rumen acidosis/digestive upsets/liver abscesses due to a lack of additional fibre in the diet - and also whole barley is a problem as the tough outer husk isn't adequately broken down by chewing.alone - needs some form of mechanical disruption.[/quote]

It can be done and maintain welfare. Clean straw (even provided as bedding) for chew and buffering, build up the amount offered as the gut acclimatises, roll the barley etc.

You know a lot of free range hens never venture outside (none at the moment)? There are some welfare benefits to caged birds - cuts down the pecking order. If you've ever kept hens, you can give them as much space as you want and they all end up in a heap.