Struck off for vaccination of puppies

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 20:27:22 GMT

[quote userid="6406" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/misc-discussions/30481/struck-off-for-vaccination-of-puppies/240173#240173"]

Neil Wheadon said:
Does anyone remember Mr Plenderleith? 30 years ago was struck off by the RCVS for allowing an unregistered new graduate to sign a vaccination card before he had taken the oath.

Yes I remember that happening www.casemine.com/.../5b4dc2292c94e07cccd22677

[/quote]

Look at the wording on this case - Certificate

Neil

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Clive Ansell — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 20:19:35 GMT

[quote userid="13460" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/misc-discussions/30481/struck-off-for-vaccination-of-puppies/240171#240171"]I can think of a few breeds that should be banned............Are we all in a conspiracy to defraud the public by doing C-sections, vaccinating and performing corrective sx on these??????[/quote]

Personally - no

as a (so called) "profession" - yes

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Minnie — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 19:43:30 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/misc-discussions/30481/struck-off-for-vaccination-of-puppies/240172#240172"]Does anyone remember Mr Plenderleith? 30 years ago was struck off by the RCVS for allowing an unregistered new graduate to sign a vaccination card before he had taken the oath.[/quote]

Yes I remember that happening www.casemine.com/.../5b4dc2292c94e07cccd22677

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 17:57:05 GMT

Curve Ball

Does anyone remember Mr Plenderleith? 30 years ago was struck off by the RCVS for allowing an unregistered new graduate to sign a vaccination card before he had taken the oath.

As a new grad I sent him a card sympathising (really) and got a lovely reply. He was reinstated on appeal (quite rightly) so the RCVS looked on these as something significant

Neil

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 16:59:44 GMT

From the judgement it would appear that although the vet 'knew' the correct facts regarding the mis-representations of these puppies as 'home-bred' ..there is no suggestion to show the vet personally 'mis-represented and passed off the puppies as home-bred'. Furthermore, "The (RCVS) Committee accepts that the Respondent was not motivated by any financial gain but that, instead, his motive was canine welfare, that being that such puppies would benefit from being vaccinated by him. It further accepts that he was exploited by his coconspirators" ...... the judge called it an "obsessive commitment to animal welfare that overwhelmed your judgement resulting in you acting dishonestly”........... all this against the RCVS Registration Declaration “I PROMISE AND SOLEMNLY DECLARE that I will pursue the work of my profession with integrity and accept my responsibilities to the public, my clients, the profession and the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, and that, ABOVE ALL my constant endeavour will be to ensure the welfare of animals committed to my care".

The phrase "ABOVE ALL" ....what then does it mean?? Does it trump everything before it, or is it subservient ? Is it an obsession???

According to the RCVS: "There is also a wider public interest here which concerns the obligation of a veterinary surgeon to stop practices which are inconsistent with animal welfare generally when such practices are viewed in their totality, as opposed to the improperly narrow way in which the Respondent chose to view them". ........I can think of a few breeds that should be banned............Are we all in a conspiracy to defraud the public by doing C-sections, vaccinating and performing corrective sx on these??????

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 16:47:45 GMT

I only know what I've read, but I got the impression that the issue wasn't the vaccinating itself, it was knowing the animals were being mis-sold as something they weren't? That the vet was 'in the know', so to speak, about possible welfare issues?

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Thevetnurse Practice — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 14:29:22 GMT

i personally agree. I think there was a lack of moral turpitude with vets in the area that did not come forward and say yes we also vaccinated puppies from such people. It is distrusting to know one vet has suffered because others could not stand forward. Spineless profession.

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Minnie — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 13:21:27 GMT

Yes I do sign the box. But as a nurse I cannot I cannot certify. Officially all I can do is sign a record. So that bit of card I am signing is only a record not a certificate

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Bob Russell — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 11:40:49 GMT

What is the big deal with treating it as a certificate? We did it with Pets Passports. I consider my signature to be of value!

I really don't get what the difficulty is but clearly some changes need to be made to include 'as stated by owner'.

We can verify identity by microchip.

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

ell — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 10:20:10 GMT

This is interesting, so as a nurse you give the second vacc but don't sign the box?

I've always argued that a vaccination certificate shouldn't actually have to have a vet signature. All it is is a record of vaccination.

It should be on the clinical record the way everything else is.

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Richard Carter — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 09:47:40 GMT

Yes- the horse has a passport which is a certificate certifying amongst other things, the identification of the horse that has been given the vaccine.

Our dog and cat records are not certified unless the pet is verified as well.

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Bob Russell — Tue, 06 Dec 2022 15:39:10 GMT

Anything we cannot attest to should have 'as stated by owner'. It is not an escape clause but allows us to sign properly as a cirtificate.

Are equine vaccination certificates 'certificates' and dog ones not?

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

cairncross — Sun, 04 Dec 2022 09:34:11 GMT

i have asked rep to enquire about this hopefully if enough of us do they may have a look

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

cairncross — Sun, 04 Dec 2022 09:33:13 GMT

i have been very grateful for that "as stated by owner" on one occasion, owner had given a date one day older to suit travel arrangements pedigree papers said otherwise and it was caught on in France and depart aghere getting pressure from French side were keen to push responsibility onto me. i have spoken to rep about getting something like this put on future cards. no doubt there is someone going to argue that i should have reasonably asked for pedigree papers where available to check the breed dob etc out

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Minnie — Sat, 03 Dec 2022 13:34:24 GMT

So what happens when I give a 2nd vaccination? It is still recorded on a vaccination certificate. Make more use of your nurses is what many of you want but I can't certify it as a mere nurse. I can record that I have given it. And the vet hasn't certified it either

18.11 The subsequent vaccination some two weeks or so later (close in time to the first vaccination) is usually authorised by the veterinary surgeon at the time of the first vaccination (directed by the veterinary surgeon when the animal is under his or her care and when the clinical assessment is carried out), and therefore the administration of this second vaccination and all dealings may be through a veterinary nurse or student veterinary nurse at the practice, provided the veterinary surgeon is not intending to certify this vaccination. Nevertheless, it is helpful for a veterinary surgeon to be on the premises at the time the vaccine is administered to the animal, to be able to assist in the event of the animal suffering an adverse reaction.

So 1st vac is certified but second isnt? so is that a valid vaccination certificate or not?

Yet another grey area - so many grey areas and inconsistencies. Its like knitting with fog.

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Bob Russell — Fri, 02 Dec 2022 11:15:23 GMT

Has that been tested in court yet?

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Martin McDowell — Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:41:47 GMT

It is still not a legal document. None of the vaccines are legally required. By law.

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Martin McDowell — Fri, 02 Dec 2022 08:39:15 GMT

This

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

bob lehner — Fri, 11 Nov 2022 11:24:23 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/misc-discussions/30481/struck-off-for-vaccination-of-puppies/239891#239891"] cockerpouchon? [/quote]

Isn't that what used to be called a cod-piece in Tudor times?

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Dinu Catilina — Wed, 09 Nov 2022 12:09:56 GMT

[quote userid="4181" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/misc-discussions/30481/struck-off-for-vaccination-of-puppies/239880#239880"]And if the card says miniature poodle 7 weeks old, are you certifying those things too?[/quote]

It sounds like we are. Maybe it should be added on all vaccination cards "as stated by owner" like in the EU passports. Or just remove that information completely and leave microchip and species. Why should a vet know if a puppy is a bichon, a mongrel or a white cockerpouchon?

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Bob Russell — Wed, 09 Nov 2022 11:33:18 GMT

Does anyone certify that a horse is a certain breed when they do vaccinations? Thankfully in most cases today we are relying on more than an owner description. If a labrador was presented with a book stating it was a toy poodle I would object!

Kennels rely on these records, often for valid insurance cover so we should always treat them with care.

They are flawed and that has to be accepted but we are still certifying.

Breeders have valid licence details and should be willing to pass that information on to us.

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 08 Nov 2022 23:20:49 GMT

In which case, paradoxically, is less actually more? Would we be safer with a microchip number and a vaccination record (date, sticker, sig)? Some disclaimer that any other information provided is for interest only and outside the scope of the person giving the vaccination?

Now that everything is chipped I am less bothered about filling in very much info as it will change as ownership does and everything gets messy.

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 08 Nov 2022 23:13:47 GMT

There are usually bits on any certificate that are 'information as supplied', such as name and address of the owner and age of the pet.

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Rob Loxley — Tue, 08 Nov 2022 21:27:00 GMT

And if the card says miniature poodle 7 weeks old, are you certifying those things too?

RE: Struck off for vaccination of puppies

Bob Russell — Tue, 08 Nov 2022 18:06:42 GMT

We are certifying by our signature that we have vaccinated the said animal on the said day. Of course these are certificates and always have been.

The vet is being paid to do a job.

Never understood why anyone would consider vaccination records as anything but certified by the person vaccinating the pet. They may not be good certificates but they are certificates.