...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Caroline Murray — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 04:36:53 GMT

Starts in vet schools but continues with employers behaviour towards staff. Some nurses salaries are now above or similar to vet salaries and no one wants to pay for increased experience/skill level despite this increased earning capacity. On call needs to be paid, it’s not charity work. If you expect people to now work 10 hours instead of 8 hours, with no pay increases since @ 15 years ago and in some cases less pay, minimal to no breaks, as others mentioned throwing people under the bus when mistakes happen due to exhaustion and no training, coupled with increased client abuse … is it any wonder people are leaving in droves or locumming?

The return of humanity and civilised behaviour,treating people like human beings not robots, as others mentioned some token appreciation above passing on the free ham from the Big Pharma, pay according to experience, flexible working plus addressing the child care cost issue elephant in the room would be a great start. Hundreds of studies have shown part timers are hugely productive but many talented vets are forced to leave due to child or injury issues requiring part time work which is denied, so there is noone and some clinics shut.

Additionally, most other professions have H and S and ergonomic requirements but these seem to be bypassed in the vet world. Having adjustable tables, suitable keyboard heights and lighting, space for your knees when sitting at a computer, to avoid constant craning ove and contorting, would help prevent many spinal and pain issues and prolong working life.

Caroline

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Petra Agthe — Sat, 10 Sep 2022 14:17:07 GMT

Interesting discussion on a clearly complex issue. From my own observations (admittedly mostly referral practice nowadays) I would agree that it is very often not about childcare as many colleagues without children choose not to work full-time in a clinical role, myself included. To me, it seems as much about a change in the veterinary work as about society and lifestyle as a whole. Life and work has in many ways become more complex and faster paced, and I think that people are now sometimes (not always!) more intentional about how they want to spend their time.

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Bob Russell — Fri, 09 Sep 2022 11:06:17 GMT

We have had that complete shake up and neither vet works stupid hours except when one is on holiday.

Almost feel guilty that we each have a day off during the week and some early finishes. It takes a bit of flexibility but works much better.

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 08 Sep 2022 13:37:30 GMT

Speaking personally, 20 years ago the barrier to being a parent and continuing to work full time was the rota, not the total hours. The expectation that you'll still be able to work a 10 hour day, work long hours on the weekend and be on an OOH rota. None of those things are compatible with childcare unless you have a private nanny or extremely flexible grandparents! This was as much of a problem for my husband as it was for me - both being vets. Neither of us wanted to give up work, but neither of us wanted to never see the kids in their waking hours! Hence we set up a practice and job shared. The sacrifice was that we saw very little of each other.

It would be nice to think that practices may have changed, with shift patterns and OOH commitments making things easier for new parents. Unfortunately that is usually not the case - practices still want vets to work 8.30am to 7pm. Hence they need to go part time instead. I really do think we need a complete shake up of how we 'work' in order to continue to provide the same service but with a better working rota.

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Bob Russell — Thu, 08 Sep 2022 09:35:12 GMT

But one of the key reasons that part time meets lifestyle needs is the need to be with family. It is historic that most childcare and care for elderly relatives is by women. They expected lower average wages than a male counterpart so in addition to tradition, it made financial sense.

The move to part time working is the reason why we train so many and have a shortage of vets. Many students (for whatever reasons) are expecting to work part time for a fair proportion of a working life.

Nothing directly to do with gender but a big chunk to do with society's expectations.

I treat these surveys with a very large pince of salt! Sample size and selection too biased to be reliable.

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Ex Member — Wed, 07 Sep 2022 22:25:10 GMT

Here is the link to the BVA data, which states “The type of flexibility vets were hoping to achieve also varied: the most common type of flexible working sought was simply working part-time (31%), homeworking (16%) was the next most common, followed by flexitime (13%) and compressed hours (5%).”

www.bva.co.uk/.../

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Elizabeth — Wed, 07 Sep 2022 22:13:35 GMT

Daniela, does that include people who just go into part-time jobs, or just those who request flexible working within their current practice?

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Alastair Welch — Wed, 07 Sep 2022 21:29:20 GMT

Truth is its pretty challenging. I certainly wouldn't be formulating policy off the back of the results of a self selecting survey. We can pretend that gender is not important, or that being a parent (and the way that childcare is organised) is not important but we are just kidding ourselves.

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 07 Sep 2022 20:40:23 GMT

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30398/fathers-jobs-mothers-responsibilities/239033#239033"]voluntary surveys [/quote]

That's interesting. Given today's limitations, how else would you gather data to reach some sort of conclusion? I'm not being facetious but your assertion implies an alternative.

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Alastair Welch — Wed, 07 Sep 2022 20:30:59 GMT

Yes I remember reading that survey and reminding myself why voluntary surveys are such a poor method of gathering accurate data!

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Ex Member — Wed, 07 Sep 2022 19:56:31 GMT

The evidence agrees with you that gender is not the issue. Data from various sources suggests the move to part time working is not about child care

BVA: “The most common reason vets gave for wanting to work more flexibly was to allow more time for leisure activities (56%), while 50% cited lifestyle needs and 28% referred to caregiving responsibilities. Other popular reasons for seeking flexible working arrangements included health reasons (28%), time for professional development (22%) and time for voluntary work (16%).

Flexee Vet: “Is the number one reason people ask for flexible working because of childcare? Interestingly, no. Childcare is not the number one reason that people request flexible working. From one of the profession’s surveys, which had over 1000 respondents, we know that the top three reasons for needing flexible working are: 1. Leisure activities 2. Lifestyle needs 3. Care-giving responsibilities - elderly or disabled relatives, and children”

So it isn’t about women, or parents even, it’s about work life balance and the differing priorities of different generations. I’m not, by the way, criticising one generation or another , simply pointing out what the data tells us

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Alastair Welch — Wed, 07 Sep 2022 18:26:43 GMT

I have to be honest I am surprised that there is much controversy regarding this. To me it is plainly obvious that the alteration in the demographic (by which I mean 'feminisation') is responsible for the current workforce challenges that we are facing.

The veterinary profession has (in relatively short order) moved from an industry where the bulk of VS were men working FT (likely beyond FT if you consider 40 hrs per week to be FT) and partaking in an additional rota OOH to one where the bulk of the workforce are women for whom replicating this traditional regime is either very difficult or not possible (principally because of caring responsibilities). That is not to pass a 'value judgement' on either system but simply to point out that it is not surprising (if you accept my below description of childcare) that providing veterinary services at either end of the working day and through the night is perhaps more challenging for the average VS than it was 20 years ago.

This dramatic change in the composition of the veterinary workforce has not been replicated in the way we look after children.

Like it or not we live in a society where the bulk of primary caregivers to young children are women. For all of the diversity of families which are now commonplace the fact remains that in this country (and I think this is true across the world) that on average children (particularly in their early years) are looked after by women more often than by men. When I think of all of my friends and relatives (including myself) who have had children over the past twenty odd years the vast bulk of them are in relationships where the mother has assumed the 'primary' caregiving role and role and the father a secondary role. By primary I mean the person who is most likely to be responsible for either directly caring for children or for delivering them to and collecting them from outsourced childcare (be that pre-school or school). That is not to suggest that men are in any way less capable of looking after children or that women are less capable of earning a living but the fact remains that within most couples one party assumes the mantle of providing more actual hands on care than the other, and that on average this is more likely to be the woman. There are of-course plenty of situations where the roles are reversed (or where childcare is genuinely every split) but these are exceptions to this rule rather than the norm.

The reasons behind this unequal distribution are likely multiple and contested (biology, finances, tradition, prejudice), but regardless the fact remains that my above description of the uneven child care remains (on average) accurate. Look at your friends, peer group and colleagues and it is likely that my description reflects the average of their circumstances.

Please don't misinterpret me I am not for a minute suggesting that women are in any way less capable of providing veterinary services in the 'traditional method', merely that they choose not to. I work with some mothers who play a full part in a (pretty punishing equine OOH) rota, but they have managed to organise their personal lives and childcare such that the father of their children assumes primary responsibility at least part of the week, For many VS (because of their individual circumstances (likely because of the working pattern of their co-parent) being available to work at the pinch points (pre 9am, after 6pm and overnight) is not practicable or financially viable.

The more important question is not how did we get here but how do we get out of here. I don't see any simple solutions. We are not about to witness a society wide shift in the method of caregiving to young children so we must make changes within the industry. The marked increase in student numbers is seemingly not working and just providing more is unlikely to help. We must find a way of (legally) making the profession more accurately reflect the society which it serves (that is to say find a way of getting more men into the industry), we should shed the mandatory OOH responsibility- clients who wish to see a VS OOH will need to 'subscribe' to one which provides such a service (and pay handsomely for the privilege) making providing OOH services financially very attractive, salaries in general (and therefore fees) will need to rise to pay wages which allow men to work part time whilst their VS partner works full time and earns the 'primary' wage. None of these solutions are easy and some will find them unpalatable but I haven't seen anyone provide a coherent path out of our current malaise.

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Bob Russell — Wed, 07 Sep 2022 10:25:51 GMT

If the move is to more part time working, we need to train more people. For this there has to be more money and as far as I can see it is not there.

The medical profession is unable to train sufficient new doctors because the government limits the subsidies.

Training two part time vets is more expensive than one full time one. Gender is not the issue, work hours is.

You cannot chose students based on the likelyhood of working full time but perhaps you should?? Perhaps some form of tax break for those that work over a set number of hours. Workable? I doubt it!

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Martin Hamilton — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 21:32:26 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30398/fathers-jobs-mothers-responsibilities/239007#239007"]Just saying that I'm not sure I met any middle aged - older, male, practice owning vets who worked part-time, in all my time seeing practice.......[/quote]

I've worked alongside two male vets in the UK, ~40yrs old, who worked part time as their partners were making more money than they were, and therefore they had taken on more childcare responsibilities that were not compatible with practice hours.

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 21:19:43 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30398/fathers-jobs-mothers-responsibilities/239007#239007"]Two of our 5 vets are part time, including my wife.[/quote][quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30398/fathers-jobs-mothers-responsibilities/239007#239007"]Just saying that I'm not sure I met any middle aged - older, male, practice owning vets who worked part-time, in all my time seeing practice.......[/quote][quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30398/fathers-jobs-mothers-responsibilities/239007#239007"]What I mean is that if we could look at the vets who chose to go part time, versus those that don't and select more of them then we have more manpower.[/quote]

Just wondering - have you told your wife to her face that her place at vet school would have been better going to a man really, for the benefit of the profession? Or are there exceptions to your logic for a person looking after your own offspring?

Discrimination against those who are able to grow a human, on the basis that they may indeed choose to grow a human, is no longer legal. Places are hopefully now allocated to the best candidate, irrespective of gender

It must be really hard to know which 17 year olds to choose - I don't envy those having to make those decisions. I certainly wouldn't have ticked any of the boxes for your preferred selection criteria, but I like to think I've contributed pretty well to this profession. My middle aged husband, however, is no longer a practicing vet.

The issue is not the feminisation of the profession - it is the inability of some in the profession to adapt and be flexible to the workforce it now has at its disposal. Many practices do make it work for them.

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Stephanie Wellings — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 17:55:21 GMT

I don't think in this day and age that any university is going to be able to justify positive discrimination to admit more males to a highly competitive course, on the grounds that females are more likely to go part time at some stage in their career. That sounds to me very much like the opposite of progress...

I think some of the factors are not veterinary related (ie lack of affordable childcare, and lack of any childcare after 6pm) and I presume other similarly structured professions (predominantly female workforce and the need to cover 24 hours) have the same issue. If you look at human nursing, for instance, I'm not sure what the solution was (or if there has been one) but it has definitely not been to fill all the nursing jobs with men.

I am not a business owner and maybe I'm showing my lack of business acumen here - but I think the way forward is make the jobs fit the people available - not to insist the job has to be exactly as it was 30 years ago and recruit (mythical) people to fit that job. If a large proportion of the workforce are available between 9 and 3, then why not do most of your work between those hours - yes, historically we have offered routine/normal priced appointments until 6.30/7pm, but maybe that's not realistic any more?

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Julie Innes — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 16:48:32 GMT

Bear in mind that, although SOME women work part-time while their children are young, they can still go back to almost FT or FT hours if practices can be flexible enough.

I speak as a middle -aged female practice owning vet (with 3 children) who works full time!

Admittedly I don't do my own out of hours (for loads of practical reasons that I'm sure I've mentioned before), but happily we've just had a new independent Out of Hours service open near us. It's a great new venture for the vets involved, and a great help to the rest of us. I'm not sure we all need to contribute to everything, but there are different roles that could suit different people. I've had friends who have preferred working nights only, and ones that want to do dermatology- lots of options! I think having central out of hours hubs is a good thing- protects day vets from burn out, and no different from us going to A +E in an emergency.

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 05 Sep 2022 21:55:39 GMT

[quote userid="3685" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30398/fathers-jobs-mothers-responsibilities/239003#239003"]Just my opinion, but if you say to people ‘you can never go part time if you’re a vet’ which is basically what you’re saying here-there’s going to be an even bigger recruitment and retention problem![/quote]

I think I've explained myself badly. I'm not against part time working, and I agree it's better to have someone working 1 day a week than not at all, BUT we have to accept that part time working is part of the bums on seats issue. Two of our 5 vets are part time, including my wife.

What I mean is that if we could look at the vets who chose to go part time, versus those that don't and select more of them then we have more manpower. The only reason my wife is part time and I'm not is that she does more childcare.

If we are trying to do something about retention then I think we need to stop trying to keep everyone happy, be PC and box ticking and have a good hard look at who stays in the profession for the duration and who put the hours in. It would be pretty easy to look at some data and see who's admitted to the register, and then monitor the drop off. Part time harder to assess, but could do surveys. Lets find out what the 'risk factors' are that promote retention and get as many of those people into the course as possible, even if they are not all traditional applicants.

Just saying that I'm not sure I met any middle aged - older, male, practice owning vets who worked part-time, in all my time seeing practice.......

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Nicola Cole — Mon, 05 Sep 2022 18:07:45 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30398/fathers-jobs-mothers-responsibilities/238920#238920"]I agree, and I think this is one solution moving forwards, but I feel those vets still need to get their hours in, even if the timing is different. If you do 40 hours a week around childcare, great, if you drop to 30 hours it makes everything that bit worse. If 4 vets do that, it's the loss of 1 vet FTE.[/quote]

Just my opinion, but if you say to people ‘you can never go part time if you’re a vet’ which is basically what you’re saying here-there’s going to be an even bigger recruitment and retention problem!

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Ann Hopkirk — Mon, 05 Sep 2022 13:45:50 GMT

I am - a female, - a mother, - a 'part time' small animal vet, - and a farmer's daughter (mixed farm in North Yorks so grew up with huge work ethic).

I work hard during my 35hours/week plus one Saturday morning in 4. I have a medicine and surgery certificate but have chosen to use them in general practice. I mentor younger members of the profession (both in person and for BSAVA).

I'm not sure why we have such a bad retention problem-wrong candidates entering vet school, poor preparation of students for practice life, poor support of new graduates in practice, poor pay, excess stress etc so I dont know what the answers are.

What I do know is that berating those of us not working 40 hours plus on forums such as theses is NOT helpful.

If I had to increase my hours, return to on call, or work again for a corporate I would instead chose to leave the profession.

Those of us doing any hours at all should stick together.

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Bob Russell — Thu, 01 Sep 2022 08:59:43 GMT

Not convinced it is feminisation of the profession. More the move to part-time working. The two may be interlinked but not the whole story.

If we are going to enter the sticky territory of the sexes, traditionally one partner tended to be the 'breadwinner', the other worked pert-time or not at all outside the home.

The relatively low pay and lack of career progression is going to put off many entering the profession as a full time career.

I am not saying this is how it should be but being realistic probably is the case. Our society has moved on but not massively.

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 31 Aug 2022 21:17:19 GMT

[quote userid="7811" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30398/fathers-jobs-mothers-responsibilities/238911#238911"]I have always tried to be flexible with hours to facilitate people's children/ hobbies/lives.[/quote]

I agree, and I think this is one solution moving forwards, but I feel those vets still need to get their hours in, even if the timing is different. If you do 40 hours a week around childcare, great, if you drop to 30 hours it makes everything that bit worse. If 4 vets do that, it's the loss of 1 vet FTE.

I think OOH is broken, and I agree no way back. The fairest way is all of us doing a little, rather than the responsibility shouldered by a few for a few years for £££. I've suggested before if RCVS made all grads do a dozen weekends and a couple of dozen nights to sign off their VET GDP that would solve a lot of problems and help those graduates careers and confidence. Won't happen.

I do think we need to be brave and stand up and say that the feminisation of the profession is a lot of the problem, especially with childcare issues. Maybe we need a real shake up and look who we are admitting to the profession, sex, experience, work ethic etc. Drop the grade requirements a bit and get some better rounded individuals into the profession. Lets drop the obsession with kids from council estates and ethnic minorities. What's happened to the farmers sons and daughters who were brought up around animals, saw their dad work 80+ hours a week and would happily do a part-time (40 hour) vet job with some nights and weekends...........

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Julie Innes — Wed, 31 Aug 2022 16:18:16 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30398/fathers-jobs-mothers-responsibilities/238906#238906"]There was a practice in Bristol that was set up by a group of ladies specifically (I think) to cope with family and childcare issues[/quote]

It's the way forward- mine was set up around my children, and I have always tried to be flexible with hours to facilitate people's children/ hobbies/lives. With so many people working from home or working shifts, it's surprising how the need for surgeries to open until 7pm has dwindled. Most clients prefer coming on a day off/ getting someone else to bring (dog walker eg). Far less need for early starts and late finishes these days. I could do the school run at 3, be back consul;ting for a couple of hours 4-6, while another vet without children might prefer to work 2-5 and finish early. There are ways to make it work if you look past traditional opening hours

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Bob Russell — Wed, 31 Aug 2022 14:29:53 GMT

We do our level best to take into account childcare etc. We opened at 9.30 on Saturdays so I could take the boys to football and closed at 11 so I had a fighting chance of collecting them!

RE: ...Fathers' jobs ...mothers' responsibilities

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 31 Aug 2022 13:41:18 GMT

[quote userid="7811" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30398/fathers-jobs-mothers-responsibilities/238905#238905"]although I do somewhat optimistically hope that we can somehow improve things![/quote]

There was a practice in Bristol that was set up by a group of ladies specifically (I think) to cope with family and childcare issues. It worked well, but was sold to CVS a few years ago

Neil