Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 27 Sep 2022 08:09:36 GMT

[quote userid="17113" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/239292#239292"]

"17...Do not allow the strength of your convictions to betray you into making statements or allegations that are unfair or untrue.

Think it possible that you may be mistaken"

[/quote]

lisashaul What a wise thought! And yes, agree with you about framing things in such a way as to open up the discussion.

But despite the weaknesses of the online discussion, I think it has its strengths too. It's a better way to share information than talking (both because the audience can refer back to it and because you can share it with a wider audience).

[quote userid="17113" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/239292#239292"]And jokes are really hard online, sadly.[/quote]

Not sure I agree there. I regularly laugh out loud because of funny comments made online.

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

lisashaul — Mon, 26 Sep 2022 19:08:30 GMT

I am one who often finds veterinary online discourses to be difficult to participate in.

Vets are, in general, and upon any given subject, such very definite people.

My (non-vet) lovely husband, jogs me back to balance by reminding me of the inescapable effect of selection and intensive training (culture/indoctrination) from studenthood onwards.

Being a Quaker, I try to jog myself back to balance by remembering two of our most sharply pointed Advices and Queries (we don't have priests, so we have our little books of pointed questions)

"17...Do not allow the strength of your convictions to betray you into making statements or allegations that are unfair or untrue.

Think it possible that you may be mistaken"

It really can be such an additional challenge, especially if tired or passionate about a subject, to be that little bit more careful in framing the discourse to open up responses rather than close them down.

And as Arlo has written, the problem with the written word is there is no possibility of an immediate adjustment and amelioration as there is in face-to-face discourse.

And jokes are really hard online, sadly.

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Clive Ansell — Sat, 17 Sep 2022 07:32:27 GMT

Fair enough. Whatever bites your biscuit I suppose.

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Aine Seavers — Sat, 17 Sep 2022 06:50:56 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238910#238910"] anal glands, boosters, nails,[/quote]

slight tangent but never found those cases boring-nails a source of so much advance warning signs of internal or management issues, anal glands-anither treasure triove and problem solver and the ultimate truth serum for a client complaining a case not going well-and vaccinations-a time to problem solve and certainly when younger to learn all the normals especially occular issues so easy to diagnose the diffucult cases before they became difficult

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

grumpyoldman — Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:06:09 GMT

I think it must be very hard to stop healthy debates deteriorating when people are polarised in their views . It did get a bit Angry people in local newspapers for me . The only things missing sometimes were the wheelie bins to lean on . FB is a plastic world of holiday snaps and hopeful illusion based on some extremely weird and haphazard intervention criteria good place to get free webinars though .

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 11:18:47 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238901#238901"]

Of direct interest to this thread

https://undark.org/2022/08/15/researchers-ask-does-enforcing-civility-stifle-online-debate/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

I haven't really read it, appeared on firefox, but thought it looked interesting

[/quote]

Neil Wheadon - read it now, thanks. It is largely talking about political discourse online, and largely on the bigger platforms, where moderation has to be automated.

I suppose the two fundamental points raised, which are more relevant to this forum were:

Whether civility stifles or sanitises debate. I don't believe it stifles debate. Sanitises? Perhaps a little. Nasty stuff is compelling reading and if you remove it, it becomes less compelling. But I would argue that there are other things which are compelling too, like interesting / valuable information, or humour.

Second point is whether civility, or good manners, can be defined. I think so, although not perhaps by the software moderation that the article talks about.

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Clive Ansell — Fri, 02 Sep 2022 19:48:44 GMT

[quote userid="8858" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238972#238972"]So if you say that, as an experienced locum, what hope is there for a less experienced/ nervous younger vet?[/quote]

I rest my case . . . . .

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Jill Butterworth — Fri, 02 Sep 2022 17:05:03 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238965#238965"]I did one night in June to help out, dreadful experience and no rush to go back.[/quote]

So if you say that, as an experienced locum, what hope is there for a less experienced/ nervous younger vet?

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Clive Ansell — Fri, 02 Sep 2022 12:46:51 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238964#238964"]In a nushell, everyone needs to contribute at some point in their career or it implodes as I expect it will.[/quote]

How could folk be compelled to do it?

I've certainly done my share in the past; 1 in 3 on call for 3 years, then 1 in 12 on call for 2 years. then locums in OOH clinics over 12 years.

I did one night in June to help out, dreadful experience and no rush to go back.

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 02 Sep 2022 12:29:25 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238963#238963"]Which bring us back to the question of OOH care provision, and how it can be provided in the long term.[/quote]

Alistair is right

In a nushell, everyone needs to contribute at some point in their career or it implodes as I expect it will.

Neil

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Clive Ansell — Fri, 02 Sep 2022 12:25:27 GMT

I have completed it, yes.

I was trying to be optimistic, but in reality accept in will probably achieve the square root of nout.

Which bring us back to the question of OOH care provision, and how it can be provided in the long term.

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 02 Sep 2022 12:20:54 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238959#238959"]Maybe the first step is await the current RCVS under care review report, which concludes on the 12th, and whether we still need to provide 24/7 [/quote]

This was mentioned at the end (have you done it? Please do) This is not going to change or rather it will for some vaccination/neutering clinics who may not need to provide cover , or that's how I read it. I expect it's a done deal, consultations rarely change things from that already decided, they tick a box.

Neil

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Bob Russell — Fri, 02 Sep 2022 12:19:31 GMT

Are we going to hand over responsibility for a big section of the pet community to on-line consultations because that is all that is available?

We had a report through from an online vet, colour was assessed via camera, heart rate was assessed by the owner. Good sense prevailed and they were told to see a vet in a non-virtual practice!

I am struggling to believe the state of the profession!

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Clive Ansell — Fri, 02 Sep 2022 12:11:19 GMT

[quote userid="8663" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238918#238918"]

Such as?

non ‘dedicated’ night staff doing some nights (with appropriate flexi working and rest periods) or on call with the same. Not the the bad old days of ‘on call’ actually meaning working most of the night with no recognition in money or toil. A development of the days when practices co operated perhaps?

[/quote]

Easier said than done.

At the moment I am doing a locum for a group of 11 branches, 5 or 6 of which are closed because they cannot recruit vets and RVN's to staff them. 3 of those branches have reduced from 3 to 1 vet. There is only one employed experienced vet across the whole group, and he is looking at early retirement soon. They have an OOH clinic within the group, that is run and staffed separately, and at the moment they average 2 nights a week where they cannot find a vet, with cases redirected to other OOH clinics.

Casesloads are very busy and daytime staff are working beyond full capacity already. Asking them to provide night cover in addition would be unreasonable, and they cannot be taken from day duties as there is already a shortfall

There is simply just not enough boots on the ground.

I don't what the answers or solutions could be.

Maybe the first step is await the current RCVS under care review report, which concludes on the 12th, and whether we still need to provide 24/7 cover.

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

David Bailey — Thu, 01 Sep 2022 19:59:02 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238945#238945"]The thrust of my argument is that communicating via the hastily written word or social media is relatively new.[/quote]

Only for us. For the Millenials and others, it is perhaps the only way they have learned to communicate. ️

people can say nasty things online. It’s easy to do. You say a lack of manners? Perhaps….
I think it is a lack of proximity…..

todays 10 year old will happily make an online comment about someone’s mother.
seems to be the go to online insult for pre teens.

pre internet any 10 year old commenting about someone’s mother learned not to insult anyones mother because they were taught how to amend their comments by being in close proximity to offended parties.

these kids just don’t learn those important kinetic survival skills anymore.

Keyboards warriors with limited face to face skills and a large gap between you and them. They just might have basic communication skills and lack the sophistication of communicating with real tangible rules that we generation x models were taught in the school corridors and playgrounds.

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 01 Sep 2022 19:51:22 GMT

[quote userid="8663" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238918#238918"]non ‘dedicated’ night staff doing some nights (with appropriate flexi working and rest periods) or on call with the same. Not the the bad old days of ‘on call’ actually meaning working most of the night with no recognition in money or toil. A development of the days when practices co operated perhaps?[/quote]

Does anyone have any good figures for how many FTE day vets keep a night vet up all night? I've been on call (between 1 in 4 and 3 in 4 nights for between 4-7FTE vets) for over 16 years now and never yet had a single night without any sleep. I've had bad nights where called at both ends of sleep, dragged out of bed, 11 lambings in one day, but also had many nights and full weekends without a single call. I've attended many dinner dances, meals out, shoots, birthday parties etc when on duty, and more often than not gotten away with it.

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 01 Sep 2022 19:36:15 GMT

[quote userid="25917" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238937#238937"]I’m a generation X model. [/quote]

David Bailey Me too. Or should I say #metoo

[quote userid="25917" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238937#238937"]You didn’t ask or query. You obeyed.[/quote]

Yes, I grew up with that.

[quote userid="25917" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238937#238937"]millennials are a generation governed by feelings. Not rules. You don’t obey and blindly accept. You are governed by how you feel. Not what you are told. [/quote]

I don't know because I'm not one, but I think that's probably right too, to some degree.

And actually, I think it may in part be responsible for the increasing amount of mental issues suffered by young people.

Whereas I was told what to do and didn't question it, until old enough to form my own opinions and ideas, the young these days are all left to make their own decisions (perhaps based largely on feelings) from a much younger age.

And so they have all the additional worry/anxiety of 'Am I doing the right thing?', whereas I just did what my parents told me!

[quote userid="25917" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238937#238937"]I don’t think manners are declining[/quote]

I start to disagree here! There is some research, I will try to find and reference it, which shows a direct correlation between online bad manners/behaviour and offline bad behaviour.

[quote userid="25917" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238937#238937"]

There seems to be a shift away from intent of communication toward how the recipient interprets the communication and how they feel. And this forces the message source to adopt a more careful approach.

It seems that we are no longer responsible for what we say but for how the other person feels in response to our communication.

[/quote]

Maybe, but that really isn't the thrust of my argument or my call for good manners in this forum at all.

For me, the very definition of good manners is being sensitive to how others feel about one's communication or behaviour.

Face to face, we have always moderated what we say to people because we are mindful of how they feel. Generally speaking, we've all got pretty good at it.

The thrust of my argument is that communicating via the hastily written word or social media is relatively new.

Devoid of eyebrows, the written word is stark and uncompromising.

What's more, people seem to lose self-control on social media and say all sorts of awful things, unfettered by the shackles of the normal standards of manners that apply offline.

So my point is not so much that we are more responsible for how others feel or react to how we communicate online, but rather that we need to better adapt to the limitations of the written word, and realise that to be as polite or good mannered as we are offline (not more, or less, just as good mannered), we need to be much more careful of how we use the written word online.

I am not sure if I am explaining myself well. Let me give an example. Face to face, you can say to someone: "You're wrong" and it is softened by facial expression and the ability to reply / counter immediately. So that's OK. If you say in a forum: "You're wrong", it is much more uncompromising, possibly humiliating (by virtue of being in front of an audience) and sounds arrogant / boorish. So I would argue that online, you need to soften that "You're wrong" in some way, even if only as far as saying "I think you're wrong", which immediately sounds more polite.

I'm not sure if that is a good example, but my point is just that I think this is not about being more responsible for how others feel, but realising that the written word is a far more potent weapon than the spoken one, and moderating accordingly to achieve the same level of good mannered discourse as one might have offline.

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

David Bailey — Thu, 01 Sep 2022 16:20:53 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238896#238896"] think declining manners are very much tied to the way we communicate more by the written word these days, and some people just haven't grasped how that demands a completely different set of rules. [/quote]

I found this to be an interesting comment.
I’m a generation X model. Our generation was governed by rules. You didn’t ask or query. You obeyed.
millennials are a generation governed by feelings. Not rules. You don’t obey and blindly accept. You are governed by how you feel. Not what you are told.
the rules of civility and manners are still the same. I don’t think manners are declining. I do think there is now an emphasis on carefully created penetration of message rather than rote learned message delivery.

It seems that we are no longer responsible for what we say but for how the other person feels in response to our communication.

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Alasdair Hotston Moore — Wed, 31 Aug 2022 20:28:55 GMT

Such as?

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Clive Ansell — Wed, 31 Aug 2022 20:18:58 GMT

[quote userid="8663" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238915#238915"]or other arrangements must be made[/quote]

Such as?

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Alasdair Hotston Moore — Wed, 31 Aug 2022 17:43:36 GMT

Regarding the salary (and good luck to them), it's fair to say that some busy OOH centres can generate the fees for this (realistically we could be up to over £0.5M for three night vets to cover a year at these costs...) but not all can, and many areas of the UK will never be able to reasonably offer such a busy service in reasonable distance to clients. So either the OOH is less busy (and salaries harder to justify) or other arrangements must be made (as I say, it ca't always be someone else....)

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Clive Ansell — Wed, 31 Aug 2022 16:16:18 GMT

[quote userid="8858" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238907#238907"]Ironically, now is a really good time to set up your plate, you get to design your own practice and working conditions and even chose the type of clients you want. [/quote]

I was talking to my newly qualified Niece at the weekend about this, she's giving it serious thought along with a friend from her year. They've both got jobs in good, busy practices, doing their own OOH, to gain as much experience as possible. After 2 years or so, they are going to re evaluate and likely go for if still keen.

Timing couldn't be better for them. corporates locally seem to be making a hash of it; prices rises on almost a monthly basis, lack of staff, often no permanent vets or nurses, no continuity of treatment, and clients leaving in droves.

[quote userid="8858" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238907#238907"]By the time they've done the maths, they've burnt out and come to hate the profession. [/quote]

That's my worry about my Niece. After 2 years of a relentless slog of anal glands, boosters, nails, the endless stream of OOH bilge, and clients moaning about costs, she may give up hope.

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Jill Butterworth — Wed, 31 Aug 2022 13:57:38 GMT

We've cross threaded a bit here, but yes, the money is there in the sector, but not going to the fee earners like it used to. Business skills ought to be taught or sought out and learned, but it's some kind of mysterious secret to younger vets. By the time they've done the maths, they've burnt out and come to hate the profession. Ironically, now is a really good time to set up your plate, you get to design your own practice and working conditions and even chose the type of clients you want.

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 31 Aug 2022 11:38:23 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238901#238901"]PS I for one, welcome David back[/quote]

I welcome everyone who is good-mannered, without exception.

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30396/good-manners-debate-and-the-direction-of-this-community/238901#238901"]Of direct interest to this thread[/quote]

Yes, very interesting. Thanks. Started reading, but will have to come back to it.

RE: Good manners, debate and the direction of this community ...

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 31 Aug 2022 11:23:37 GMT

Of direct interest to this thread

https://undark.org/2022/08/15/researchers-ask-does-enforcing-civility-stifle-online-debate/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

I haven't really read it, appeared on firefox, but thought it looked interesting

Neil

PS I for one, welcome David back