Workloads

RE: Workloads

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 28 Aug 2022 16:58:40 GMT

[quote userid="24356" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30390/workloads/238860#238860"]But are female doctors paid too much to ge able to justify A career break? Also their training extends until they are much older, so career breaks would be even more detrimental to their career. [/quote]

That is a really interesting observation backing up what I have seen where professionals tend to marry professionals. I have seen quite a few female vets who manage a corporate practice. When a family comes knocking they are usually the minority wage earner within their relationship, even though they are working pretty much full time in that practice. Therefore they come back part time or not at all

Neil

RE: Workloads

Elizabeth — Sun, 28 Aug 2022 14:15:37 GMT

But are female doctors paid too much to ge able to justify A career break? Also their training extends until they are much older, so career breaks would be even more detrimental to their career.

RE: Workloads

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 28 Aug 2022 13:38:07 GMT

[quote userid="24356" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30390/workloads/238855#238855"]The main difference between now and 1988 is the high proportion of women on the courses. Women have children, want to care for their children the selves ( or at least see them occasionally) and either stop working or reduce their hours. [/quote]

Which is why I specifically compaired vets to doctors.

It would be easy to say 'look numbers have increased' and then yes this would be a factor, but doctors are training broadly the same gender numbers.

Neil

RE: Workloads

Bibs — Sun, 28 Aug 2022 12:23:53 GMT

I'm sure this is part of the issue but I'm a woman in my 30s, have no kids, have no plans to have kids and I find almost all GP practice workloads/working practices unsustainable. They just make me feel depressed after a while due to being overworked and stressed. I think the man problem is just no slack in the system and people working themselves into the ground. Just having some protected breaks, reasonably finishing times and on the day appointments for the inevitable extras is almost impossible to get. The childcare aspect just adds to this.

RE: Workloads

Elizabeth — Sun, 28 Aug 2022 12:06:21 GMT

And Alistair - your working hours sound great, and I would have loved them when I was working full time before kids.

RE: Workloads

Elizabeth — Sun, 28 Aug 2022 12:01:52 GMT

The main difference between now and 1988 is the high proportion of women on the courses. Women have children, want to care for their children the selves ( or at least see them occasionally) and either stop working or reduce their hours.

Obviously not all women are like this - lots of women work all hours setting up their own practices etc, etc or may not have/want children. But the overwhelming factors is children.

I’ve said this before on this forum - early on when it was a new forum, and got strongly disagreed with. But unless we accept that this is one of the main issues then nothing will change.

RE: Workloads

Martin Hamilton — Sat, 27 Aug 2022 19:42:16 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30390/workloads/238850#238850"]

That is around 11% lower than the 2,310 accepted places recorded at the same point in 2021. But it is around 1.5% up on the equivalent figure of 2,020 recorded at the same stage in 2019, the last year in which grades were determined through formal exams.

In 1984 when I qualified there were about 350 places, yes that's 1/7th of the amount now

This begs the question. "Where are they all going?'

[/quote]

Not sure about other vet schools, but when I qualified from Edinburgh in 2016 we had a year of ~170 students, yet I'd say approximately half were international students that headed home after vet school. Same for my brother who also graduated from Edinburgh in 2019. Number of accepted places =/= the number of graduates that will remain in the UK. Universities, especially those with AVMA accreditation, use international students to fund/subsidise the places for domestic students - not to get too political, but likely due to chronic under-funding.

I'd imagine there has also been some organic growth, but you're right, still a glaring retention issue.

RE: Workloads

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 27 Aug 2022 12:03:37 GMT

[quote userid="16672" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30390/workloads/238846#238846"]Just read this on VetTimes - hope that this isn't a trend that continues....

www.vettimes.co.uk/.../[/quote]

It's a 'from the hip comment' but I'm shocked, not by the decrease but the numbers

In 1984 when I qualified there were about 350 places, yes that's 1/7th of the amount now

This begs the question. "Where are they all going?'

Look at doctors where a similar level of demographics occur

In 1988, 3739 qualified, in 2020 it was 8835, a rough doubling

Something is very very wrong

Neil

RE: Workloads

Clive Ansell — Sat, 27 Aug 2022 08:58:52 GMT

Wot Bob says really,

Added to which the considerable debt many students have to get into just to get through the course. My Niece who has just graduated estimates that tuition fees and increased accommodation costs have cost the best part of £100k

RE: Workloads

Clive Ansell — Sat, 27 Aug 2022 08:56:20 GMT

[quote userid="16672" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30390/workloads/238846#238846"]ust read this on VetTimes - hope that this isn't a trend that continues....

www.vettimes.co.uk/.../[/quote]

There is still around 17,000 applicants chasing around 2000 places though. Plenty interested.

RE: Workloads

Bob Russell — Sat, 27 Aug 2022 08:47:45 GMT

Sorry! What do people expect?

The profession I entered was the most respected, competition was fierce to get in and it offered a pretty good career progression to a comfortable retirement for most.

We are now trade and looked down on. The government does not listen and happily brought in lots of legislation that impacted on running a practice. Corporate buy outs have provided a limited number of people with a good pay out but the rest are left with salaries that are junior doctor pay at best. There is almost nowhere to go to match the value of an old fashioned partnership and hard worked for private pensions are worth the square root of bu++er all in the last few years.

Why would anyone be keen to enter a profession where our governing body is seriously considering handing over clinical decision making to someone on the internet?They are not listening to the profession despite so called 'consultation exercises'.

The profession is lucky to be getting any applicants for places let alone the high quality ones it still gets.

Corporate type practices have bu++ered up the profession and it is probably passed saving long term.

RE: Workloads

Martin Hamilton — Fri, 26 Aug 2022 17:18:51 GMT

Just read this on VetTimes - hope that this isn't a trend that continues....

www.vettimes.co.uk/.../

RE: Workloads

Clive Ansell — Sat, 20 Aug 2022 11:15:04 GMT

[quote userid="16672" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30390/workloads/238778#238778"]Hopefully the opening of the new vet schools will help stabilise things a little.[/quote]

Doubtful.

The best analogy I read was, there is little point in continuing to fill a bucket with water if the holes in the bottom aren't fixed. In other words, we need to look at and address why colleagues are choosing to leave the profession or retire early. There is little point in training more vets if they don't remain within the profession.

RE: Workloads

Bob Russell — Sat, 20 Aug 2022 09:32:11 GMT

Looks like we are to have yet another vet school in the UK. I suspect this will be filled with international students rather than British based ones.

The working conditions in the UK have been pretty abysmal in the recent past. The working day increased, working week seven days, without that much increase in vet numbers.

Filling lots of places with European vets did nothing to improve the situation. British OV's were priced out of the market as an example. Hundreds of years of experience was lost to save money.

I was under the impression that conditions in Australia were even worse than the UK a few years ago.

I don't know what the answer is but more control over vet training numbers might be a start. Numbers aimed at filling the needs of the profession, not just a cash cow.

Perhaps I will be working part time into my seventies!!!

RE: Workloads

Martin Hamilton — Fri, 19 Aug 2022 15:13:14 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30390/workloads/238764#238764"]We need to train vets that are to work in the UK. Possibly work out numbers based on the likely hours to be worked. If everyone works part time we need more vets.[/quote]

This is easier said than done. I've mentioned in many thread before, but you have to remember that the UK veterinary profession is not in isolation, and is competing with the USA, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. UK graduates are fortunate to have such a high level of veterinary education that they are sought on all corner of the globe.

I'm British and trained in the UK, as are 6 of my co-workers here in Canada (in a hospital of ~150 staff), all of whom moved here because of working/living conditions. 4 of my close, British friends from vet school have also moved abroad, with another couple in the process of obtaining visas. Maybe expats end up with friends who are more likely to be expats, I don't know, but even so, those are not insignificant anecdotal numbers.

Unfortunately it's a chicken and egg scenario - few vets -> more stress -> look for opportunities abroad that are better paid or less hours -> more stress on vets left behind. I'm sure Brexit didn't help with the decrease in registration with the RCVS of European vets. Hopefully the opening of the new vet schools will help stabilise things a little.

RE: Workloads

Bob Russell — Fri, 19 Aug 2022 08:07:13 GMT

But the newer vet schools seem to be taking a lot of foreign students. Presumably a cash cow because of the higher fees.

We need to train vets that are to work in the UK. Possibly work out numbers based on the likely hours to be worked. If everyone works part time we need more vets.

I freely admit I cannot wait for retirement although not quite sure how that is going to be financed after the last car crash two years or so!

One of the reasons for the GP practice disaster seems to be the move to part time work. Not sure whether our local practice has more than one full timer but then I have had no contact from them in over two years!

RE: Workloads

cairncross — Fri, 19 Aug 2022 06:37:28 GMT

We have 30k vets if we all do 1 hour less per week that's 30000 hours which need covering that's 750 extra vets ( if we are doing average 40h each per week) it's a fairly basic calculation for every hour on average the profession drops for work life balance to facilitate caring responsibilities to re educate we need at least 5 new vet schools pumping out vets to cover.

Every new standard expected every new referral option that needs discussed on a regular basis add to hours per week very quickly. 10 years ago very little of my time was spent discussing referral options only a limited few were available now they have sprung up for nearly every potential case , certainly hours per week are lost to this discussion .

RE: Workloads

Bob Russell — Thu, 18 Aug 2022 12:26:46 GMT

This is the crux of the difficulties the profession face at the moment. We do not have enough vets, working enough hours.

One practice around here has been mothballed because they cannot staff it. Others have closed their books, even having a waiting list.

We have partially reopened our books for people without a local vet already but have done everything we can to limit the extra stresses on staff. If people are already registered we ask them to stay put for now at least! I am concerned that our OOH clinic is unable to staff properly.

I would kill for a part-time vet but as things are that is not likely.

Once again people are misinterpreting statistics. 50% of UK practices have reported an increase in client numbers, not a 50% increase in work.

RE: Workloads

Alistair Graham-Evans — Thu, 18 Aug 2022 11:56:28 GMT

That’s nice Julie

Everyone starts by 8 in Australia

We have an OOH clinic that has just re-started after Covid but they didn’t extend their regular service to us as we are the largest clinic in town ( 6FTE) and they want to prioritise small clinics until they get more staff. They have helped occasionally when we have continuing staff shortages due to illness though!

RE: Workloads

cairncross — Thu, 18 Aug 2022 11:30:14 GMT

This seems a perfectly reasonable expectation and pretty much everyone agrees the old Dino system of 90 plus hours per week unacceptable..

We have had a ? 25% increase in patient numbers in the foundry with in the last 10 years a huge increase in the availability in tests procedures WE can provide , a huge increase in time needed to advise all potential option s and many other boxes to tick.

No smedicap service industry can cope with even a sudden 5 % demand increase .

Providing decent working conditions and providing care for All animals does not compute

RE: Workloads

Bob Russell — Thu, 18 Aug 2022 10:53:44 GMT

Absolutely, a good reason is required. This is not the way I work but some may!

Tesco appear to have won a case where they have fired and rehired.

RE: Workloads

Richard Carter — Thu, 18 Aug 2022 09:49:44 GMT

Costs easily £10000 to replace a vet- agency, time, advertising, vds, RCVS, other incentives, your stress levels, the dangers of taking in staff with unknown skills, damage control if you got it wrong so if you decent vet pulling your weight, growing the client base and skills in the practice…

RE: Workloads

Bibs — Thu, 18 Aug 2022 09:37:43 GMT

Yes but the practice still need a good reason to sack an employee after 2 years. They need to go through the correct procedures. It can’t be just because they found someone cheaper. If they do then they risk being sued for unfair dismissal.

RE: Workloads

Bob Russell — Thu, 18 Aug 2022 09:15:07 GMT

[quote userid="11590" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30390/workloads/238730#238730"]If you get whatever deal when negotiating a new contract, if you’re in the job for more than 2 years, surely an employer can’t just sack you for a cheaper vet? Not to mention the reputation the practice would get for sacking to employ cheaper. I don’t think that’s a very likely scenario. I think we should ask for more than offered. I asked for 10k more than offered few years ago. The boss knew me quite well already and said yes without too much quibble. I only asked for more because a older colleague advised me I should, otherwise I’d have just taken what I was given. I learned an important lesson there. [/quote]

A staff member can be dismissed following a legal route. Not much to stop a replacement as long as there is some defence. Some practices don't really seem to care.

We have an almost non-existant staff turnover rate so hopefully this is an OK practice to work in!!!

RE: Workloads

Julie Innes — Thu, 18 Aug 2022 08:41:48 GMT

We have 3 FT vets and 2 PT (1 just does saturday morning 9-12, other currently on mat leave)

Vet1 starts at 8.30am, ops admitted (by nurse) 8.30-9.00, with vet around in case needed. Vet 1 operates all morning, usually finished by around 12.30/1

Vet2 starts at 9, consults till 10.30 then either does "2nd ops" (xrays/ sedations/ smaller ops) if any need doing, or continues with consults if busy. Finishes 12.30/1

Vet 3 consults 9.30- 12.30

Lunch for all until 2pm. Each vet has a half day on either tues/ wed or thurs, then on a friday we take turns at a half day. In the afternoon 2 vets consult 2-5pm. no OOH