Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Bob Russell — Tue, 19 Jul 2022 10:47:29 GMT

I am a member of the Conservative party. I do it to support my MP who has supported me especially in our dealings with the Home Office.

I don't get involved because I don't want to.

Cost about £20 a year.

If people don't like our system then they have to vote for a party that wants to change it. Not many choices there!

It is not easy to lose citizenship even after committing serious crimes and there are checks and balances to ensure it is no simple thing to lose.

Indefinite leave to remain is not that different to citizenship and will only be taken away should the application turn out to be fraudulent or serious crimes committed. An unexplained absence from the UK for two years or over is likely to result in it lapsing but holders are likely to be allowed into the UK as if on a visitor type visa.

Quite correctly rights to family life are taken into account where appropriate. The family are unlikely to have done much wrong.

Windrush was a disgrace and a real blot on the UK. People were treated in a disgusting way by people that should have been fired. Our residents must never be treated like this ever again.

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 19 Jul 2022 05:04:39 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238144#238144"]Easy then, don't commit crimes. [/quote]

This is why I wrote 'accused'.

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 18 Jul 2022 22:24:28 GMT

[quote userid="14080" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238145#238145"]Law doesn’t state you have to commit a crime, it just has to be the public interest which is not defined[/quote]

Even if it was defined, it doesn't matter. I doubt the state will start hunting for citizens and if it does then it's better to go on your own than wait to be pushed out.

The reality of immigration is that with or without citizenship you are always expendable. The law today can change tomorrow and the rights given can be taken. History shows that nothing is certain.

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Ex Member — Mon, 18 Jul 2022 22:19:02 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238144#238144"]Easy then, don't commit crimes.[/quote]

Law doesn’t state you have to commit a crime, it just has to be the public interest which is not defined.

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 18 Jul 2022 21:20:04 GMT

[quote userid="11493" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238142#238142"] If Mo Farah were to be accused of committing a crime, citizenship removal and being sent to a country he barely knows would be available to prosecutors[/quote]

Easy then, don't commit crimes.

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 18 Jul 2022 18:58:40 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238139#238139"]Well, if you were to go off and fight for our enemies, you shoudn't be surprised if your citizenship is removed.[/quote]

Of course. The problem here is fairness. If Mo Farah were to be accused of committing a crime, citizenship removal and being sent to a country he barely knows would be available to prosecutors. This is something his lawyers would have to take into account when settling deals. In court, even if you're innocent, you're 'less equal' than everyone else.

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 18 Jul 2022 16:47:27 GMT

[quote userid="11493" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times"]The HO can remove your citizenship as long as you have another one.[/quote]

Well, if you were to go off and fight for our enemies, you shoudn't be surprised if your citizenship is removed.

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 18 Jul 2022 11:17:12 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238135#238135"]So what do you do when two potential PMs from the same party can't agree if to lower or increase taxes at the same time? [/quote]

I don't vote on the basis of a PM, though I might have to rethink if the Conservatives ever fielded someone like Corbyn!

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238135#238135"]Are conservatives centre right or centre left?[/quote]

All I know is that they are not as left as the others, and that's enough to secure my vote.

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238135#238135"]Are PMs following the party ideology at all? [/quote]

Again, I think the extraordinary times we live in have demanded extraordinary measures, ie higher taxes, so a temporary departure from low tax / small state does not bother me yet.

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 18 Jul 2022 10:45:13 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238134#238134"]I vote on the basis of a broad ideology, which is compassionate capitalism, entrepreneurialism, small state etc. That leaves me only one option at any election, which is to vote for one party or not! [/quote]

So what do you do when two potential PMs from the same party can't agree if to lower or increase taxes at the same time?

Are conservatives centre right or centre left?

Are PMs following the party ideology at all?

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 18 Jul 2022 10:35:24 GMT

[quote userid="3094" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238126#238126"]Isit just nme that finfds it hard to avoid votig for the potential new Prime Ministrrather than votigon the basis of the track record[/quote]

I vote on the basis of a broad ideology, which is compassionate capitalism, entrepreneurialism, small state etc. That leaves me only one option at any election, which is to vote for one party or not!

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Julian Earl — Sun, 17 Jul 2022 17:51:43 GMT

Isit just nme that finfds it hard to avoid votig for the potential new Prime Ministrrather than votigon the basis of the track record, say of one's local candidate? Or voting on aparty's whol manifsto in fact? Dos this last take too much timand effort? So One just votes on whether one likes the idea f Johnson or whomever etc being our leader? Sorry a Naive question probaly but TIA for replies!!

Julian E...

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Ex Member — Sat, 16 Jul 2022 14:41:19 GMT

Referendum in 2011 was on AV which is not a form of proportional representation

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Beats — Sat, 16 Jul 2022 14:00:25 GMT

I agree about not being a presidential system - you eleect MPs, plenty of them and then leave them to make decisions.

I thought I remembered being given a vote on whether to keep FPTP or not for general elections in the recent past and the country chose to keep FPTP? IThta's pretty democractic if the case?

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Bob Russell — Fri, 15 Jul 2022 10:11:01 GMT

When it comes to decision making on individual immigration cases, to save money it is all centralised and decisions are made on a tick box approach rather than to let someone with experience and power make a sensible decision.

Often inadequately trained staff are made to hit targets to process applications.

It is not the laws fundamentally at fault but the system to process them. Common sense is frowned upon.

This is why the immigration courts are so backed up and the various agencies tend to lose cases (if they even turn up to defend them).

My daughter went to London yesterday to get an urgent passport for our granddaughter. It was rejected because there was a smudge on the form! It will mean another appointment and a new form. Common sense would be to allow five minutes to fill in a copy form and accept the counter signatory on the first form. Computer says No! Bonkers as it was all clear and legible.

My wife has British citizenship after jumping through hoops for years. It was not difficult but time consuming and expensive. It allows her to vote, travel visa free to many countries unlike her other passport. She is also proud to have achieved citizenship.

Indefinite leave to remain is just that, indefinite rights to remain in the UK. Strange that anyone should be questioned or threatened with being forced to leave. The only thing short of it being removed following a criminal conviction would be to leave the UK for a continuous period of two years and even this can be appealed.

(Falling back into my immigration help hat!!)

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Ex Member — Fri, 15 Jul 2022 10:00:00 GMT

I feel I should clarify something. I believe that the current process of electing a new leader of the Conservative party, who will then become PM is the right process under our current system. We don’t have a presidential system, people vote for MPs not the PM, the PM is the leader of the party with the greatest number of seats.

However, I don’t agree with the FPTP system and believe it to be inherently unfair. Most countries around the world do now use some sort of proportional representation.

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Ex Member — Fri, 15 Jul 2022 07:56:09 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238086#238086"]I assume that you are taking the total number of seats won and dividing by the total party votes?[/quote]

Taken from the electoral reform society. Would have to dig deeper to see how they calculated it. The point of it was demonstrating the number of wasted votes in a FPTP system, and how the seat majority is disproportionate to the total vote majority.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238086#238086"]seats is a broadly fair way of doing things and representing local people and geography[/quote]

If there were the same/similar number of constituents per MP I would agree with you.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238086#238086"]policy isn't to round up upstanding professionals, strip them of citizenship and deport them, but to have the option there in specific cases (specifically criminal).[/quote]

And why do you have to be a “professional” to be upstanding? What about cleaners, postmasters, bus drivers or porters? Still contributing to society and at risk of deportation. It is also allowing removal of citizenship essentially without notice (wording says “for any other reason not be reasonably practicable to
give notice”), with one of the 3 reasons given as “in the public interest”. Who defines what constitutes the public interest? If you have any doubt these things would always be done fairly, look at Windrush. Closer to home, my father has indefinite leave since the 1980 and has lived here and contributed his whole adult life. Brexit came, and as he is retired, was threatened we being forced to leave. Why? Because the only thing they used as proof of being here was NI contributions over the previous 5 years. As a retiree he had none. I was forced to provide 5 years of residency proof (a small log book his live-in landlord signs every week when my dad pays rent) plus documents from the 1980s, to make sure he could stay, and he had to apply for settled status even though he has indefinite leave to remain from before Portugal joined the EU. My father was fine in the end as he had a tech savvy daughter to advocate for him. Many other vulnerable people do not.

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 15 Jul 2022 06:29:35 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238086#238086"]Unless I have monumentally misunderstood, the policy isn't to round up upstanding professionals, strip them of citizenship and deport them, but to have the option there in specific cases (specifically criminal)[/quote]

Sorry for turbo-posting. This was my understanding until I learnt about the Windrush generation, so you do find things that aren't supposed to happen cause problems even decades into the future. That's why law must be written on concrete terms. It is not good for anyone to make law so we can do A, B or C, ignoring the potential consequences for everyone else who might fall into the same category. This government has been particularly disappointing in making reactive laws to satisfy media cries from friendly MSM.

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 15 Jul 2022 06:22:29 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238082#238082"] I don't think I'd go and work in a foreign country and then moan about how it's run. In the same way it would be disrespectful to go to Dubai and prance around in a bikini, or India and eat steak.[/quote]

This is why I have a beef with the word 'integration'. It implies those who receive it are simply consenting, and there's no moral obligation on them to accommodate. I would remind you all that although I have been immigrant to this country, I come from the South coast of Spain where the immigration pressure is also present, perhaps to a much greater degree than in many parts of the UK.

There are three major and distinct sources of immigration there. The North European which is (or was?) mostly British, the African, and to a lower degree, the East European. I don't deny there are always tensions and often resistance to change, but for the most part, I see enrichment.

(btw there's absolutely nothing wrong with what you expressed and how you expressed imo).

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 14 Jul 2022 23:42:30 GMT

[quote userid="14080" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238085#238085"]

Can’t agree on FPTP being the best system. What it results in is wildly different numbers of votes needed for each party to get a single seat:

864,743 to elect the lone Green MP
642,303 votes for zero Brexit Party MPs
334,122 to elect each Liberal Democrat
50,817 to elect each Labour MP
38,300 votes to elect each Conservative MP
38,316 to elect each Plaid Cymru MP
25,882 to elect each SNP MP

[/quote]

I assume that you are taking the total number of seats won and dividing by the total party votes? That's a misleading way of expressing the data. Scotland and Wales added together have fewer people than greater London, therefore each SNP MP is going to have a much smaller pool of votes. I think the seats is a broadly fair way of doing things and representing local people and geography. It does amaze me that the greens have an MP (same with Brexit/UKIP). Not a helpful statistic.

[quote userid="14080" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238085#238085"]I was born here, have never lived anywhere else, paid taxes here, and yet my citizenship could be revoked to send me to a country I have never lived in nor contributed to. Makes no sense. [/quote]

Unless I have monumentally misunderstood, the policy isn't to round up upstanding professionals, strip them of citizenship and deport them, but to have the option there in specific cases (specifically criminal). If you turn out to be a terrorist, a threat to national security or another kind of criminal, then I am absolutely all for it. No one should be directly seeking asylum in Great Britain as they have already passed through safe countries. Very happy taking our share (eg Ukraine) from the neighbouring safe country where they declared. There is no reasonable excuse to sail over from the continent on a little boat and I'm very happy shipping those people off to Africa. They are NOT being persecuted in France.

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Ex Member — Thu, 14 Jul 2022 23:08:40 GMT

Can’t agree on FPTP being the best system. What it results in is wildly different numbers of votes needed for each party to get a single seat:

864,743 to elect the lone Green MP
642,303 votes for zero Brexit Party MPs
334,122 to elect each Liberal Democrat
50,817 to elect each Labour MP
38,300 votes to elect each Conservative MP
38,316 to elect each Plaid Cymru MP
25,882 to elect each SNP MP

FPTP leads to a disenfranchised electorate, wasted votes and disproportionate representation in Parliament. For example, SNP got 3.9% of the vote (1,242,380 votes) and got 48 MPs. Liberal Democrats got 11.6% of the vote (3,696,419) and got 11 MPs. FPTP may happen to suit your political persuasion/party, but I wouldn’t describe it as fair democracy. The conservatives got just over 43% of the popular vote, not the majority of the electorate, and it is certainly not proportionate to the 80 seat majority it resulted in.

As for citizenship being only by birth, disagree as well. I happen to have dual citizenship (although currently only hold a British passport). I was born here, have never lived anywhere else, paid taxes here, and yet my citizenship could be revoked to send me to a country I have never lived in nor contributed to. Makes no sense.

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Martin Hamilton — Thu, 14 Jul 2022 22:53:43 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238082#238082"]Yes, and I think rightly so. My personal feeling is you can only be British by birth. Very happy immigrants coming here where there is a need, and them having the rights to live here. In the same way I personally don't believe you can become a woman because you want to, even though I respect anyones decision to dress however they please. The politicians wouldn't be doing this if there wasn't strong support, and myself and many people I know would be absolutely behind such suggestions. I appreciate why you may not.[/quote]

Can't really agree with this, especially the "you can only be British by birth", though this is the opinion of a Brit who has moved away from the UK and has gained citizenship elsewhere. Citizenship confers the right to vote and participate in the democracy to which you pay taxes to, and is distinctly separate from cultural heritage. For those who are willing to leave their previous home behind and have proven to the government and their community that they are an asset, why shouldn't they have the right to reside and have a say on how the country is run?

The Brexit vote (in my opinion) really reinforced just how insular the UK is, and although I am culturally British I am glad to have moved to somewhere more progressive and open (both more open to immigration and to different cultures and views). The only reason I keep my British citizenship is the worry that a family member may become ill, requiring me to head back for a prolonged period of time.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238082#238082"]Personally I believe the first past the post is by far the best system. It's clear in this country that either main party has the ability to get elected when connecting with a majority of voters. I think something serious would need to happen to let the Lib dems or green party in, and that's excellent news.[/quote]

I would argue that this isn't necessarily true - how many people would vote for Greens or Lib Dem but feel that it is a wasted vote due to FPTP, therefore vote for Tories or Labour (I dont have any stats on this but know of many who vote tactically)? I know that in Scottish elections I relished being able to use one of the votes we had due to a more proportional system to vote for parties that actually aligned with my views, rather than one of the big 3 that Scotland has.

Very glad to be watching this unfold from a distance - I hope that whoever is voted in has a little more of a moral compass than Boris had, and represents Britain well on the international stage. The only comments I had heard from non-Brits about Boris were regarding his many faux pas, and how he was essentially Britain's equivalent of Trump.

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 14 Jul 2022 22:20:12 GMT

[quote userid="11493" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times"]the government continues to progress towards splitting the immigrant and the native. The HO can remove your citizenship as long as you have another one.[/quote]

Yes, and I think rightly so. My personal feeling is you can only be British by birth. Very happy immigrants coming here where there is a need, and them having the rights to live here. In the same way I personally don't believe you can become a woman because you want to, even though I respect anyones decision to dress however they please. The politicians wouldn't be doing this if there wasn't strong support, and myself and many people I know would be absolutely behind such suggestions. I appreciate why you may not.

[quote userid="11493" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times"]Same as with free speech, our democratic rule has boundaries, but does it have too many?[/quote]

There should be no limits on free speech, either in life (or on the forum!). Period.

[quote userid="11493" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times"]uch is the First Past The Post system. The older a democracy is, the more experienced, but also the more flooded by out-of-date conventions.[/quote]

Unsure whether to post this or not, but I don't think I'd go and work in a foreign country and then moan about how it's run. In the same way it would be disrespectful to go to Dubai and prance around in a bikini, or India and eat steak. Personally I believe the first past the post is by far the best system. It's clear in this country that either main party has the ability to get elected when connecting with a majority of voters. I think something serious would need to happen to let the Lib dems or green party in, and that's excellent news. I think my single discontent with our political system (putting poor Boris aside - best PM in my lifetime) is the gradual move to the middle as Labour gets a bit more conservative and conservatives more socialist (furlough a perfect example).

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Clive Ansell — Thu, 14 Jul 2022 11:43:32 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238074#238074"]There was no general election when Gordon Brown took over from the smiley clown. The rules is what they is. You vote for a party and a manifesto not a particular leader. Never have done.[/quote]

I really think there should be. People voted conservative with BJ as leader (Just as they did labour with Blair as leader) In a true democracy, surely should be able to say yes or no to the change?

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Bob Russell — Thu, 14 Jul 2022 10:26:10 GMT

There was no general election when Gordon Brown took over from the smiley clown. The rules is what they is. You vote for a party and a manifesto not a particular leader. Never have done.

How the Met Police can justify only investigating the family that used Mo as an unpaid servant once the media became involved staggers me. Yet another failure by HM Plod.

RE: Democracy deficit in Tory leadership times

Clive Ansell — Thu, 14 Jul 2022 09:43:23 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30354/democracy-deficit-in-tory-leadership-times/238071#238071"]It is the Conservative government that was given the mandate based on its manifesto.[/quote]

The goal posts and soon the leader has changed. There should be a general election once the new leader has been announced.