Manners in this forum

RE: Manners in this forum

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 16 Aug 2022 12:23:25 GMT

Stephen Pointing I was hoping this thread would now disappear down the rankings, because it has been a difficult discussion, and we have reached a conclusion, from which I would now like to move forward.

And now you've come and pinged it to the top of the list again!!

Ah well. Not your fault. I should have locked it off.

[quote userid="13196" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238700#238700"]My comments on manners in this forum but also much more widely than that are that good manners have been declining in this country for a very long time now - and the speed at which good manners have declined is almost directly attributable to the growth of on line websites such as FB and Twitter - where far too many people seem to think it is perfectly acceptable to write exactly what they want - no holds barred. It is perfectly possible to enter into a robust discussion without ever becoming overtly offensive. It is just a matter of self awareness and self control - something which is sadly lacking in far too many within the UK population.[/quote]

I couldn't agree more with everything you said.

However, some have argued that it's not about manners, it's about shining a light on power and those who make public proclamations; that you need to goad such people into making revealing replies.

I think that may work on Newsnight, or in a courtroom, but it is not appropriate for here.

Anyway, on top of demanding good manners in this forum from now on, I'm also playing around with lots of ideas to try and address some of these issues.

[quote userid="13196" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238700#238700"]One thing I am getting used to is never being able to get through to any company or business directly without having to listen to an introductory spiel (often quite lengthy) and then having multiple choices as to what to do next. You very much get the impression that the company's least favourite option is that you should actually speak to one of their employees but sometimes having a conversation with a fellow human being is actually the best and quickest option to resolving the issue.[/quote]

God I so agree with you. And by the time I finally do get to speak with someone, which is option 12, of option 5, of option 4, of option 5, I'm, just so pissed off that I'm spoiling for a fight!

I AM going to lock this thread now. The debate's been had. I've made the decision. I hope it's the right one, but I am sticking with it: Zero tolerance of bad mannered posts in this forum.

On which bombshell, it's locked. Nothing personal Stephen, and if you or anyone else wants to pick up the discussion about broader societal changes, you can always start a tangent discussion.

RE: Manners in this forum

Stephen Pointing — Tue, 16 Aug 2022 11:03:49 GMT

I've deliberately stayed out of this discussion to this point mainly because I've just retired and have been enjoying the fantastic weather in the UK since returning from the Falkland Islands. It has taken back to my teenage years in 1976 during which I worked on a pig farm in E Anglia - during the height of the hot spell. Today it is raining here in Somerset - but very gently and not the predicted torrential downpours that were forecast.

My comments on manners in this forum but also much more widely than that are that good manners have been declining in this country for a very long time now - and the speed at which good manners have declined is almost directly attributable to the growth of on line websites such as FB and Twitter - where far too many people seem to think it is perfectly acceptable to write exactly what they want - no holds barred. It is perfectly possible to enter into a robust discussion without ever becoming overtly offensive. It is just a matter of self awareness and self control - something which is sadly lacking in far too many within the UK population. Having lived and worked overseas for a good proportion of my working career it is often easier to see how much society in this country has changed (and much of it for the worse) than for someone who has lived and worked here all the time. Those small incremental changes (good and bad) go almost unnoticed on a day to day, week to week basis but when that gap extends to 2 or 3 years then you become much more aware of the changes. One thing I am getting used to is never being able to get through to any company or business directly without having to listen to an introductory spiel (often quite lengthy) and then having multiple choices as to what to do next. You very much get the impression that the company's least favourite option is that you should actually speak to one of their employees but sometimes having a conversation with a fellow human being is actually the best and quickest option to resolving the issue. They call it progress but I think customer service was often better and more personal in the past.

RE: Manners in this forum

Joyce Whitehead — Fri, 12 Aug 2022 15:54:09 GMT

Arlo, so sorry to hear about your daughter, I hope you and the family can get through this latest crisis with the support of each other. And I also hope the forum can get back to being polite and not insulting to anyone. And thank you for all you do here Arlo, I for one appreciate it.

RE: Manners in this forum

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 12 Aug 2022 07:16:36 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238610#238610"]in the last few hours I’ve been told to to *** off, The Obnoxious One, a narcissist, selfish, egocentric etc etc etc [/quote]

Yeah, a couple of people who are not normally taken to that kind of thing have felt driven to express their frustration at your intransigence.

I've been sitting here thinking it's pretty pointless me sitting here banging on about why the written word in social media is an inappropriate place to be sarcastic etc. You disagree. That's that.

But I do wonder how you feel about the fact that the overwhelming response in this forum has been from people who feel your approach is wrong for this forum.

What, you think 'sod them, they're wrong, I'm right, I am carrying on regardless'?

That would slightly miss the point, I think. This is a community. If the majority of respondents express the view that they don't like the way you express yourself, don't you think you need to change, or leave?

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238610#238610"]I actually don’t do that if you care to dog down, or anyone does. [/quote]

As I have said before. You don't do direct insult, as in eff off, or obnoxious one etc. You do sarcasm. You do belittling. You do patronising. And these things are all far, far worse than 'eff off'.

Without exception (sorry, no, there's one exception!), every bit of feedback I have had about your posts is that the underlying points are incisive, interesting, worth reading etc etc, but the way you express yourself - specifically how you speak to others - is awful. Puts people off. Stops people posting. Has stopped many people posting.

Aside from the fact that (as someone else remarked), it's singularly self-defeating (because if you keep putting people off, soon there'll be nobody left but you shouting at yourself), I don't see how scaring everyone away from this forum is in tune with your stated aim of holding power to account. Those in power really don't give two hoots if one person is shouting in an empty forum. What they really care about is if the forum is full and influential. I know this, because we were once!

Anyway, we are where we are. My case rests. I hope you will remain, and I hope we will all continue to benefit from your insightful posts. But I am not losing one more forum poster over you. So if I read one more post from you which I think is being sarcastic, unkind, rude, you know the rest, that will be it.

And I do understand if you cannot see a way to adapt and want to preempt that.

RE: Manners in this forum

David Mills — Fri, 12 Aug 2022 01:34:14 GMT

I quite agree.

in the last few hours I’ve been told to to *** off, The Obnoxious One, a narcissist, selfish, egocentric etc etc etc

Direct personal attacks. On character, personality, whatever.

I actually don’t do that if you care to dog down, or anyone does. I am robust in my opinion on people’s ideas and yes I have joshed with Al Welch and many others about working for me, person to person. I hate anecdote, supposition and the frankly unreasonable, personal, rude dressed up in “reasonable” accounts. Such is the liberalism.

I don’t care being called these things by two people in the last day which I have never said to anyone so personally in all my time here. C’est moi. But I respect their right to say it, if that’s how they feel. Would I coming running to you wanting a van? No. But if rules is rules well that’s what it is.

RE: Manners in this forum

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 19:48:47 GMT

Please, no personal comments, everyone.

It doesnt help. Quite the opposite actually.

I will delete them.

RE: Manners in this forum

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 18:29:36 GMT

Arlo I am so sorry to hear that your daughter is in hospital again, it must be so difficult for you and your wife. I hope she is able to celebrate her eighteenth birthday in some way with you , your wife and her sister. My heart goes out to you.

I appreciate you taking the time and trouble to explain the rules of engagement on the forum once again and I agree with you that it is entirely possible to have robust discussion in a manner which does not stifle debate by causing personal hurt, humiliation or attacks on someone’s motivation. If any contributor feels they no longer wish to engage then we have all lost out and the conversation is the worse for it.
Lets hear all sides of every argument, not just from those who are most adamant and combative but also from someone who might be more uncertain or even mistaken and misguided. If someone listens to your argument and maybe changes their views then surely that’s better than them leaving the debate feeling squelched and still unenlightened.

I miss reading the views of several of the unique eloquent but rather intimidating contributors who are no longer on here but I don’t want this place to mimic twitter, full of bile and vitriol. I miss the wit, humour and support for colleagues which used to be more evident and now becomes lost in some threads which become a bare knuckle fight.

David I always read your posts, I often agree with you but sometimes I think of challenging you and then decide I don’t need to subject myself to your firepower. Having read your posts I don’t think you fully understand the effect you have on other contributors and I wish you could so that we can all benefit from your eloquence and intelligence.

RE: Manners in this forum

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 14:36:44 GMT

[quote userid="6765" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238598#238598"]This is not OK Arlo, and I am genuinely angry that your time is being taken up defending your reasonable position when you need to be spending precious time with your daughter.[/quote]

Alistair, thank you sincerely for your concern and kind thoughts, but really it IS OK!

If it wasn't, I wouldn't be here. Promise.

Thing is, when my daughter goes into a cluster of seizures, there is no benefit in spending time with her, as she's unconscious. And my wife and I work in shifts with hospital visits.

Latest news is that after another rocky night (12 seizures I think, and a whack of benzos), she has rallied today, and none since 8:00am. So maybe she will pull through this time, in which case she may surprise us all and live for some time yet.

But I would be surprised, because behind the rollercoaster of her condition, there has been a hidden slow decline. And as a family we have decided that she is not to be ventilated again, as it causes her too much extra suffering.

So given the ever present risk of pneumonia from aspiration, I am now of the view that every hospital admission stands a 50/50 chance of being one way. And I think the odds over the last few days have been lower than that.

[quote userid="6765" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238598#238598"]would fail to see how inappropriate it is to be provocatively arguing with and kicking an individual at this time.[/quote]

Alistair, don't worry, I don't feel kicked! If I did, I wouldn't reply. Or I would say so.

[quote userid="6765" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238598#238598"]This is a very filtered and hopefully acceptable version of my feelings! [/quote]

Smiled. Not quite, no (have edited). I have to be ruthlessly even-handed here, and having a dig at the personality traits of another member is not on, whoever it is and whatever the reason.

For my part, I understand David's arguments and I don't doubt his sincerity. I just profoundly disagree with him. Fair enough. But I set the club rules. So in the end, I just have to do what I feel is for the best.

RE: Manners in this forum

Alistair Graham-Evans — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 13:51:54 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238591#238591"]I'm here, it's OK![/quote]

This is not OK Arlo, and I am genuinely angry that your time is being taken up defending your reasonable position when you need to be spending precious time with your daughter.

I am sure that most people who support this site would agree that this trolling needs to be switched off now. This is a very filtered and hopefully acceptable version of my feelings!

My thoughts are with you and your family at this time.

RE: Manners in this forum

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 13:21:40 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238595#238595"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
This is an entirely spurious argument. Putin might argue that tactical nuclear weapons are the only option for winning his war. Wouldn't make it right.

It isn’t. I’d suggest trying to get an answer answered at a conference these days - mostly they are submitted then filtered. The professional bodies aren’t more open, despite their proclamations. Your Putin analogy is fallacious.

[/quote]

My point, regardless of the specific analogy, was that just because something is the only option, does not make it an acceptable one, or the right one.

If the professional bodies are not open enough, then one needs to fight to change that. It is a separate issue to manners in the forum.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238595#238595"]Is someone saying something unreasonable (or just wrong) in a reasonable way better than someone saying something reasonable in an unreasonable way? [/quote]

I do not see the relevance. My argument with you doesn't concern how reasonable or not someone's opinion is, or how reasonably or unreasonably they express it. I am only concerned with one thing, which is that people are not horrid to each other in this forum, so that more people can engage and benefit from its strengths.

It isn't any more complicated than that.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238595#238595"]Now consider you are ALMOST ALWAYS talking to another person. So your responses will always be personal on some level.[/quote]

Yes, true. However, it is perfectly possible to disagree with someone, and express that disagreement clearly, factually, and without being snide etc.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238595#238595"]people are talking about obnoxiousness, rudeness, belittling as if insults are being hurled directly at people. [/quote]

For clarity, "People" is largely me. I am not sure who else you think is playing the ad hominem card.

Of course insults are not generally hurled at people, as in 'you tosser'. In many ways it would be much easier if they were. But that's not the way insult works. Sarcasm, snidery, terseness, being patronising etc, are the weapons more commonly deployed around here, and they are FAR more offensive than calling someone a tosser.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238595#238595"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
Face-to-face generally avoids that problem.

I disagree almost entirely. People don’t go around saying Hi I’m Mr X and I’m an alcoholic etc.

[/quote]

No of course they don't, but you have a far better chance of picking up on other visual clues, and if you take the time to speak to someone offline, you will over a period of time know and understand them better than you do from entirely online discussions.

I have just had an email from someone with whom I had a mild email altercation with a while ago, who shared with me what they have been going through.

I was completely thrown. I had NO idea. No reason I should. And maybe even if I had been better at communicating on the telephone, I would still not have known. But for sure, I had zero chance communicating solely by email.

I've always had a rule (which I don't always stick to) that if I am pissed off with someone about something, PICK UP THE PHONE and stay well clear of email.

I've just extended that. If there is anyone I have regular dealings with ... make sure to pick up the phone from time to time, and not rely 100% on email.

At the end of all this, the club rule here is: be polite to other members. That does not preclude disagreeing with other members or expressing that disagreement robustly.

But if you or anyone else are impolite, by which I mean sarcastic, patronising, terse, unkind, whatever, then your account will have the forum post permission removed permanently.

RE: Manners in this forum

George Cooper — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 12:43:37 GMT

Firstly, Arlo, every compassionate supportive thought for the two "issues" facing you - neither of which are easy or desirable.

Secondly = how does someone with an undoubted intellect remain so obtuse as being unable to accept what is being said? And abide by it?

RE: Manners in this forum

David Mills — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 11:58:59 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238591#238591"]This is an entirely spurious argument. Putin might argue that tactical nuclear weapons are the only option for winning his war. Wouldn't make it right.[/quote]

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238591#238591"]posting stuff that is personally insulting, sarcastic, belittling etc because:[/quote]

Somewhat in danger here of trenches being dug and the anecdotal being taken for factual.

It’s something that matters so I’ll try and explain.

Is someone saying something unreasonable (or just wrong) in a reasonable way better than someone saying something reasonable in an unreasonable way?

I would argue not - in fact it is dangerous for debate. Because the person can always use the offence or ad hominem card. Now when the arbiter of “unreasonable” is also that person well, it’s f****d isn’t it. We are living in the age of the ego, the egocentric, the selfish and the I being the most important thing especially in discussions.

Now consider you are ALMOST ALWAYS talking to another person. So your responses will always be personal on some level. Some people don’t like to have their ideas criticised or anything negative said about their ideas or behaviour. So be it. But discussion is a two way thing. We don’t just all get to go through our professional lives with everyone thinking we’re amazing, and right.

people are talking about obnoxiousness, rudeness, belittling as if insults are being hurled directly at people. They’re using the me defence. Which isn’t a debating defence.

Now if you want that to be your forum, then of course that’s up to you. But accept you will lose a unique resource and melting pot of opinion.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238591#238591"]Face-to-face generally avoids that problem.[/quote]

I disagree almost entirely. People don’t go around saying Hi I’m Mr X and I’m an alcoholic etc.

RE: Manners in this forum

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 10:26:27 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238584#238584"]You have my profoundest sympathies.[/quote]

I wasn't after the sympathy vote, but more to highlight another weakness of the forum written word, which is that you have NO IDEA what shit is going on in the reader's life (which they may or may not feel comfortable sharing in a forum), which may make them read your post differently to the way you meant it, or react differently than they might otherwise. Face-to-face generally avoids that problem.

But thank you. Yes, it is awful. Brutal. Whether she survives or not, it is now 2 days before her 18th birthday which it looks increasingly unlikely she'll be well enough for, even if she does recover. She'd been looking forward to that and talking about it for months. That makes me very sad.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238584#238584"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
I understand your line of argument, that people in positions of leadership or authority need to be challenged. But I profoundly disagree with the manner in which you do it, because I do NOT think it is a appropriate for a forum and I also do not think it is appropriate in the veterinary profession.

But at times this is the only medium we have.

[/quote]

This is an entirely spurious argument. Putin might argue that tactical nuclear weapons are the only option for winning his war. Wouldn't make it right. I can think of lots of examples where something might be the only available option, but nevertheless wrong.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238584#238584"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
As for inferring that Daniella is a fraud. I think that's a disgraceful thing to post in a professional forum, and she deserves an apology.

I didn’t,

[/quote]

Well, I read it that way, so I would find it entirely reasonable if she did too.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238584#238584"]but if she is offended then I apologise.[/quote]

That's one of my pet hates in life: 'If you are offended then I apologise', which immediately just transfers the blame for the offence to the offended. It's a meaningless apology which in fact says you don't apologise at all.

A nice, plain, simple: "I'm sorry" would have been been so much better.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238585#238585"]I have read the article and the studies behind it. I’ve read the press releases, the Vet Times piece, the discussion on here.[/quote]

Interesting. You see, you CAN write a post without peppering it with patronising 'le sigh', or inferring people are frauds, or being generally personally offensive. Start of last para is perhaps a tad patronising, but hey, Rome wasn't built in a day and overall it's significantly better.

From where I sit, this more factual approach is a FAR more productive modus operandi than posting stuff that is personally insulting, sarcastic, belittling etc because:

a) When you post obnoxious remarks, the sympathy of the crowd goes entirely with the person you are interrogating, which I assume is not your aim.

b) When you post obnoxious remarks, it gives the person you are interrogating every excuse to leave the room, which again I would argue is not revealing, or helpful. Most onlookers would think: "Fair dos. I'd leave the room too, if someone spoke to me like that".

c) When you post obnoxious remarks, you deter others from posting (and there is now overwhelming evidence of this) in the forum at all.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238584#238584"]As I said, I’m not hanging around if that’s what you want - it’s your forum and you can allow whoever in it, or not, you like. We fundamentally disagree with each other.[/quote]

Well, we agree that public figures, or leaders, or people who make public pronouncements should expect to be questioned and disagreed with.

We agree that we need a balance of opinion, and not a forum dominated by one view, such as Brexit or remain.

As far as I can see, we do fundamentally disagree over one thing, which is the way people treat each other in online discourse.

I don't think your most recent post was anything the less for the fact that you weren't personally offensive in it. Quite the reverse.

But if you disagree; if you demand to be personally rude, patronising, terse, whatever in this forum, then we are at an impasse.

To be clear, I don't wish you to go. But think of it like a club. If you are not prepared to follow the club rules ...

Thank you bob lehner, Aine Seavers, Jill Butterworth, Eamon McAllister. This is something I have been living with for 18 years now, so it is not as much of a shock to the system as it might otherwise be. I have had many years to consider every eventuality. And under most circumstances, life must go on. If I need to leave the forum for a while, I will. If I'm here, it's OK!

RE: Manners in this forum

Eamon McAllister — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 10:09:32 GMT

I’m very sorry to hear about your daughter Arlo.

RE: Manners in this forum

Aine Seavers — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 09:22:30 GMT

Well said Bob. Maybe time to pause the forum in general so Arlo has no non-family tasks to deal with

RE: Manners in this forum

bob lehner — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 09:04:24 GMT

[quote userid="8858" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238586#238586"]

I'm very sorry to hear about your daughter Arlo, this must be a very difficult time for you

[/quote]

I'm sure we all agree with this - and our thoughts are with you and your family.

RE: Manners in this forum

Jill Butterworth — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 08:59:31 GMT

As a 4th person on the thread.

I'm very sorry to hear about your daughter Arlo, this must be a very difficult time for you and not helped by you needing to defend your business decisions when they are being attacked in such a personal manner. This must be a bit like how vets feel when they are slated on FB by clients. It can be horrendous for the individual.

You have done brilliantly setting up this site in the face of stiff competition and joining forces with another successful company is a natural and not unexpected progression, congratulations.

David: Generally if one feels a strong objection to the printed word it is more appropriate to reply to the original magazine with a rebuttal.

Why try to deliberately be provocative on line and sabotage someone else's business? Plenty of debate can be stimulated by an interesting post without resorting to insults. One could speculate it was due to a lack of vocabulary, but as we all know, that is not the case. I like some of your posts very much, but if your writing needs to feed off drama you will end up in a echo chamber, which surely would be counter productive, as you presumably like to disseminate your views.

I love the profession and I am dismayed by the direction it is taking in some quarters. Let's not be divided when we have much to unite us.

Maybe you need to find a way to put your posts through a s*** filter before you gaily press 'send'....

RE: Manners in this forum

David Mills — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 08:51:53 GMT

I have read the article and the studies behind it. I’ve read the press releases, the Vet Times piece, the discussion on here.

I’ll try and keep this brief. From questioning on here you’ve said we need to interact with breeders better. Breeders already interacting with a vet. Yet have conflated that with the profession being responsible in part for the rise in fertility clinics. People who use fertility clinics - the illegal ones - aren’t interacting with the profession and won’t. So what you’re saying is slim and to be honest I find patronising - we need to interact with our own clients better.

The rise in fertility clinics isn’t because of a lack of vets. It’s because of illegality, price, and the explosion in breeding brachies purely for profit, often if not mostly linked to other criminality. If you wanted to make a point then go for that. Say it’s a disgrace that the RCVS sit by and allow this to happen. Say it’s a disgrace the police do. But it isn’t the professions fault, as you, yourself, on here have backtracked to.

Say that brachies are an awful example of form over function and that tinkering around the edges kidding ourselves that we are making a difference is nonsense. That any brachy can be a normal dog is a self evident falsehood. Vets compliant in this myth are, to my mind, kidding themselves.

Do not allow a lot of press to go out with the logical fallacy that because you think vets aren’t engaging with breeders corrrectly this has led to the rise in fertility clinics. What an out there take on the reality. And please, oh please, don’t patronise the profession with “evidence” based on some surveys of people who own brachies - these people aren’t even the issue - and yet again like the gender pay gap stuff your conclusion is built on a bed of very poor sand.

finally, please read the room. Look around at the profession. Stop telling people to read your article because it is nothing more than an op Ed in a red top designed to generate interest. I’m gobsmacked it contains no reference to those sat idly allowing this stuff to go on - why doesn’t it?

RE: Manners in this forum

David Mills — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 08:40:40 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238583#238583"]David, I've spent the last few days watching my daughter dying.[/quote]

You have my profoundest sympathies. It must be unimaginably awful, and I am truly sorry for you and your family.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238583#238583"]I understand your line of argument, that people in positions of leadership or authority need to be challenged. But I profoundly disagree with the manner in which you do it, because I do NOT think it is a appropriate for a forum and I also do not think it is appropriate in the veterinary profession.[/quote]

But at times this is the only medium we have. I am not going to bore people with a circular argument. There is a lot wrong I. The profession, it is disjointed, there is little direct access to those making the rules or “key opinion leaders” or other. I’ve found this place populated with many practitioners who essentially agree and roll our eyes at some of the pronunciations being spewed forth - we won’t change them, but we can shine a light on them and sense check our perceptions.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238583#238583"]As for inferring that Daniella is a fraud. I think that's a disgraceful thing to post in a professional forum, and she deserves an apology.[/quote]

I didn’t, but if she is offended then I apologise. I don’t have time for frauds in any walk of life. I don’t think many people would. If I see some line of argument that is fraudulent or logically bad then I will point it out. Whether that makes the person giving that opinion a fraud or not is a matter of philosophy not opinion.

As I said, I’m not hanging around if that’s what you want - it’s your forum and you can allow whoever in it, or not, you like. We fundamentally disagree with each other. And we’ve both more important things to be doing than bickering on here.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238583#238583"]Don't patronise me you little shit.[/quote]

That’s the spirit.

RE: Manners in this forum

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 08:02:11 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238580#238580"]Hello all, interesting to see the discussion here.[/quote]

Here we go.

David, I've spent the last few days watching my daughter dying. She hasn't actually gone yet, but I feel the end is nigh. I only mention it because you will understand that I am not in the mood for this.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238580#238580"]Probably be seen by less than 3 but here we go.[/quote]

Well, if that is true, and going on the feedback I have had, I hold you more responsible for that statistic than anyone else.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238580#238580"]I didn’t retire or walk in front of a a bus.[/quote]

I invited you to moderate your tone. I said I would love it if you would become the Louis Theroux of the site, questioning those who need to be questioned incisively, but without being personal, sarcastic, etc. You declined my offer and said 'let's have a break'. You suggested it. In other words, you retired. Or threw yourself under the bus.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238580#238580"]I merely pointed out the glaring holes in Arlo’s arguments about polite debate - see Paxman/Howard etc and sometimes it is necessary to be brunt in confronting nonsense especially when it attacks a profession on its knees. [/quote]

Paxman/Howard happened face to face, where Howard had the right to immediate reply. On top of which, Paxman was not snide, belittling etc, he just repeated the question a lot of times.

As I explained earlier. I do not believe your aggressive, personal, belittling, sarcastic style is appropriate online. I made that clear when we met many years ago. I have not changed my opinion since then.

I understand your line of argument, that people in positions of leadership or authority need to be challenged. But I profoundly disagree with the manner in which you do it, because I do NOT think it is a appropriate for a forum and I also do not think it is appropriate in the veterinary profession.

Your approach is only acceptable face-to-face. Full stop. Go to an RCVS Question Time and tear into people there, if you wish. That would be fair game.

On here, it is not.

Sorry, you are conflating 'being confrontational' with 'being obnoxious'. I do not remember examples of where being personally sarcastic, belittling etc etc in a forum have been successful. I have never had a problem with people confronting issues, only with the manner in which it is done, which needs to take into account the limitations of the written word.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238580#238580"]but let’s Arlo old fruit [/quote]

Don't patronise me you little shit.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238580#238580"]Youll soon be left with a sterile forum of Brexit obsessives dying to play the card of lefty acceptance but only if it ticks their weird conformational boxes, and, so tragically, a dry debate. Do what you will.[/quote]

No I won't. You keep misunderstanding the issues here. It's not about whether someone is left or right. I just wont tolerate people being horrid to each other in this forum. You can go and do that on facebook, or twitter if you like.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238580#238580"]Thanks all of you for the support [/quote]

By 'all' do you mean both of them.

You don't acknowledge the many people who have declared that they post here less because of your manner. And I have had more private messages.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238580#238580"]De Santos was click bait and her argument boiled down to those breeders with a vet who would listen - a non story. That only came out on here, much to their chagrin/annoyance because they were called out on it directly and forcefully. I don’t like frauds. Not sure anyone does.[/quote]

But you just argued that only three people are here, which slightly blows your argument that it was to anyone's annoyance / chagrin. I find the breathtaking arrogance in your post a little hard to stomach, too. No allowance for the fact that you may have misread or misinterpreted her piece. You just launch straight into the attack without engaging at all.

As for inferring that Daniella is a fraud. I think that's a disgraceful thing to post in a professional forum, and she deserves an apology. How dare you deride her as a fraud in a forum just because you believe you disagree with her point of view (notwithstanding the fact you probably misunderstood her point of view in the first place).

This is all very simple. You think it is OK to be sarcastic etc in a forum. I understand your rationale for that, but profoundly disagree.

I think it is perfectly fair to disagree, to challenge etc, in a forum, but the limitations of the written word in this format (which include the lack of an immediate ability to reply, the public humiliation exacerbated by the lack of immediacy, and the magnifying and polarising effect of the written word), mean that it requires a more factual approach.

I have given you a lot of leeway in the past, but I have had enough, and judging on the overwhelming feedback I have had, I am not alone in that.

So, you were suspended temporarily.

I will give you the opportunity to reply to this thread, because I equally don't want you misrepresenting what I have said.

RE: Manners in this forum

Ex Member — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 07:19:18 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238576#238576"]The embellishment of the reasonable RCVS rules under her charge as BVA President was not helpful and confusing for the profession. The pieces of flawed quasi-pseudoscience research regarding discrimination was an embarrassment to the BVA and by association to her.[/quote]

I’m sorry you felt our guidance didn’t help, but with over 7000 attending the first webinar and an average of 2500 for subsequent ones after that, as well as the huge amount of positive feedback we got in comparison to a very small amount of negative, the vast majority found our work incredibly helpful and reassuring. As for the discrimination work, I have always stood by it, defended it, and would do so again if you have any issues you want to raise with it.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238576#238576"]BVA during lockdown saying don’t let cats outside as they’ll spread covid.[/quote]

Actually, this was the BBC misquoting us, and I spent a whole day on various types of media correcting it.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238580#238580"]Someone who blames the vast majority of the profession for the rise in fertility clinics for servicing breeders of designer dogs driven by lockdown or someone who, well, er, doesn’t?[/quote]

Please read the article. It’s not what I said at all. I didn’t link it to lockdown and I actually questioned whether we as a profession should rethink we communicate with owners.

RE: Manners in this forum

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 07:15:13 GMT

Is she the member who was a sad loss to the forum?! If so I'm not sad. The embellishment of the reasonable RCVS rules under her charge as BVA President was not helpful and confusing for the profession. The pieces of flawed quasi-pseudoscience research regarding discrimination was an embarrassment to the BVA and by association to her. If people are not willing to stand by their views and their work (no one defended a dissertation or similar?) then I personally have no interest in entering into discussion with them.

My worry as you instigate the death penalty for petty crimes. Sometimes it is right to point out that someone is wrong, is managing a case incorrectly, has produced a piece of work that has flaws. Professionals should rise to that and reflect on their own practice. Lets build some robustness and resilience in the profession and not lower the temperature for fear of melting snowflakes.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238580#238580"]Arlo asked me where being confrontational was successful. I gave him a few examples including the BVA during lockdown saying don’t let cats outside as they’ll spread covid. I think it was Iain Richards then who came along but whatever. The point stands. When confronted by nonsense it deserves robust, rational, and yes sometimes personal, rebuttal. And no, no personal rebuttal in any sense other than that person has expressed profession belittling stuff in the past. [/quote]

Agreed.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238580#238580"]I’m happy to leave the forum, them’s the breaks, but let’s Arlo old fruit not distort the history or the conversations and take a little step down from your PR previous life - as you say, be fair, and if you want to, publish our exchange in full, but be under no illusion I was some affable lt col saying sure no more drinks in the mess old chap good oh.[/quote]

As I said in support of him earlier - I think David is a big loss to the forum. He is down to earth and practical with advice. Helps many people out. Would be interesting to see what percentage of the total forum posts are his and how many likes he has had for being helpful (perhaps as a ratio to the dislikes).

Arlo Guthrie maybe that should be your yardstick for removing people - when dislikes exceed likes? That is your system at the end of the day.

I'll ask one more time - please can we bring back David and keep some semblance of grown up, robust veterinary discussion between adults?

RE: Manners in this forum

David Mills — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 07:10:20 GMT

Hello all, interesting to see the discussion here.

Probably be seen by less than 3 but here we go. Thanks all of you for the support especially those who’ve I’ve disagreed with but I’m no doubt would disagree with over a beer and a laugh.

I didn’t retire or walk in front of a a bus. I merely pointed out the glaring holes in Arlo’s arguments about polite debate - see Paxman/Howard etc and sometimes it is necessary to be brunt in confronting nonsense especially when it attacks a profession on its knees. De Santos was click bait and her argument boiled down to those breeders with a vet who would listen - a non story. That only came out on here, much to their chagrin/annoyance because they were called out on it directly and forcefully. I don’t like frauds. Not sure anyone does.

Arlo asked me where being confrontational was successful. I gave him a few examples including the BVA during lockdown saying don’t let cats outside as they’ll spread covid. I think it was Iain Richards then who came along but whatever. The point stands. When confronted by nonsense it deserves robust, rational, and yes sometimes personal, rebuttal. And no, no personal rebuttal in any sense other than that person has expressed profession belittling stuff in the past.

These are rational, direct, attacks on leaders, or wannabe leaders of our, your profession, actively alienating the profession for their what…? Who knows.

I’m happy to leave the forum, them’s the breaks, but let’s Arlo old fruit not distort the history or the conversations and take a little step down from your PR previous life - as you say, be fair, and if you want to, publish our exchange in full, but be under no illusion I was some affable lt col saying sure no more drinks in the mess old chap good oh.

Youll soon be left with a sterile forum of Brexit obsessives dying to play the card of lefty acceptance but only if it ticks their weird conformational boxes, and, so tragically, a dry debate. Do what you will.

And yea - partnering with possibly the most extortionate, opportunistic CPD company ever known to the profession? Le sigh.

To others - just ask yourselves who you’d prefer on here. Someone who blames the vast majority of the profession for the rise in fertility clinics for servicing breeders of designer dogs driven by lockdown or someone who, well, er, doesn’t?

Hasta la vista and all that

RE: Manners in this forum

Aine Seavers — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 07:09:25 GMT

Thanks for the reply-if you had said from the start that after a series of direct consultations with him-David asked to retire-not that you had started to suspend him-then none of the ensuing discussions would have been needed. I am fine with him being consulted with and he deciding to leave-now that is known then your actions make more sense.

RE: Manners in this forum

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 08 Aug 2022 06:30:43 GMT

[quote userid="6473" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238538#238538"]My suggestion was having 2 streams- divided into non-clinical topics in a social line.stream wherein stronger opinions could be held and into a clinical stream-wherein super strict etiquette and rules of engagement were the order of the day.[/quote]

Hi Aine Seavers

I have tried that too, and it doesn’t work. Problem is that despite signposting, people didn’t change their behaviour according to the forum. On top of which, I think that having aggressive stuff deters people regardless of where it is on the forum.

[quote userid="6473" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238538#238538"]Re the not being told about people having issues with posts and leaving-go back to some of your earlier bigger contributors who faded away-usually with history of being a topic of vile replies if you check--and u see the pattern[/quote]

There isn’t a way for me to do that! But I am quite sure that if there had been lots of them, I would have seen the pattern and acted. I cant think of a single bigger contributor who faded away as a result of vile replies.

[quote userid="6473" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238538#238538"]I was not a big contributor but did have an issue- where you were very aware of an insulting post at me-others called it out too-you said if I did not receive an apology from the poster (not David Mills or Wray) you would delete the comment-well no apology and that offensive post still persists to this day on this site years later-so so much for doing something if only you had been told- because not only was that comment called out by several for similar reasons unrelated to that post-unrelated you then had the woman moderator to see if that helped the general behaviour.[/quote]

Its really hard having this discussion because I don’t remember individual instances. I don’t remember how offensive the post, whether I thought there was any element of it that was fair, or why I didnt delete it (I cant think why I would say I would delete it and then not do so). But if you were to share a link I could comment.

[quote userid="6473" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30350/manners-in-this-forum/238538#238538"]This bad behaviour issue has been long standing,and whilst Mills might have been amongst the fray on a lot of it-kinda hard to throw him under the bus as an example to al[/quote]

You wont be aware of what went on behind the scenes, but I’d like to reassure you that I did not throw David Mills under a bus. When I first realised his posts were problematic, some years ago, I went to go and meet him in person and we debated the subject at length. We did reach some sort of agreement that he would tone things down.

Slowly, though, he returned to form. After a recent series of toxic posts, I suspended (as in temporarily) his account and got back in touch with him, to ask him to moderate his own posts. However, this time we had an irreconcilable difference of opinion, him feeling that it is necessary to be obnoxious in order to goad revealing answers out of people. He felt that to be important and said he would like to retire from the forum.

So in fact, the truth is that I did not throw him under the bus, he stepped out in front of it himself!

In summary, I’ve tried what you suggest, Aine (different forums with different standards). That didn't work. I’ve also tried warning people. That never worked, both because it was too subjective and because people would just push the boundaries. I’ve also tried having expert forums (which, incidentally, do not limit the ability for others to contribute their knowledge, because we have the general clinical discussion forums too.) They work in the sense that they are FAR more collaborative and never hostile, but as Dinu Catilina said, I need more contributors. And they do not solve the problem of toxic posts elsewhere.

The only option left is zero tolerance. In reality, I don’t just switch people off. I will always contact them, as I did in David’s case. But if they are not prepared to give an undertaking to stick to the forum rules, then there wont be a second chance.