Boris , who's next

RE: Boris , who's next

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 29 Jul 2022 12:18:01 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238447#238447"]Back to Rishi vs Liz. [/quote]

I'm flabbergasted that the extreme increase of energy prices was quickly brushed over with the usual cowardly reluctance of imposing more regulatory measures. None of them said anything useful, and Tory-friendly Ferrari didn't press them either.

RE: Boris , who's next

bob lehner — Fri, 29 Jul 2022 11:30:45 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238447#238447"] Seems to be down to low tax vs high tax, and honestly I do not know which would be better because I am not an economist.[/quote]

Not just you - ask 10 economists and you'll likely get 10 different opinions. It's not an exact science.

RE: Boris , who's next

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 29 Jul 2022 10:41:41 GMT

[quote userid="9179" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238381#238381"]They did it on PCPs in the 70's when there was a real risk of sudden climate change (a risk that at the time was not understood and since has been lost to history, but decisive international action genuinely narrowly avoided utter catastrophic change)[/quote]

Chris Milligan Do you mean CFCs?

I thought that CFCs dissipated quite quickly, where greenhouse gases do not. Is that right?

Found a graph of CFC levels:

Surprised me that levels are still so high, actually.

Anyway, my worry is that by the time decisive international action is taken, it will be too late. And I am not sure what decisive action could be taken now anyway.

We're going off on a bit of a tangent here. Perhaps if you want to continue the climate discussion, press tangent.

Back to Rishi vs Liz.

I'm not sure I find either of them particularly inspiring. Seems to be down to low tax vs high tax, and honestly I do not know which would be better because I am not an economist.

But I would like to know their ideas for making use of our Brexit freedoms, climate change policies, especially at a time when fuel is so expensive, and Ukraine.

RE: Boris , who's next

Cinzia Gandini — Thu, 28 Jul 2022 16:36:02 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238433#238433"]China going into numerous lockdowns has led to major world shortages[/quote]

I think they need to be very careful

www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Senate-PASSES-280-billion-CHIP-bill-build-semiconductors-combat-China.html

RE: Boris , who's next

Bob Russell — Thu, 28 Jul 2022 16:28:25 GMT

I see little wrong with suspending a number of taxes until such time as external inflationary pressures start to settle.

Businesses have increased prices in part because of energy price hikes. Many prices have gone up because COVID has destroyed profits and resulted in higher borrowing. Staff shortages don't help. China going into numerous lockdowns has led to major world shortages.

These will calm down and the profiteering companies will be found out eventually.

People need help now and for some time to come. We need to keep pressure on Russia and it is going to hurt us as well as them.

20p on a cheeseburger - the world will implode.

RE: Boris , who's next

Chris Milligan — Wed, 27 Jul 2022 23:07:07 GMT

yes the Chilean/Peruvian venture to recover south eastern Pacific fish stocks is a really interesting case study; the blocked off fishing areas see a massive rebound in populations, so much so that surrounding, less stringently regulated areas benefit from the recovery as well and that's where people get their sustainable fish from. Chile also has a lot of farmed fish and shellfish too but that's touted as an interrim measure. South of this area, the Reserva de Karukinka in Patagonia is a huge wilderness protected area bought up and safeguarded by (astonishingly in my opinion considering their track record) Goldman Sachs. Tepuhueico reserve in mid-chile is owned by one of Chile's megabillionaires and has seen a surging return of endangered and highly endemic wildlife and a cleaning of rivers flowing out of the region. I feel with all this, the work is afoot it just needs to be economised to the point that the businesses previously indulging in the destructive can see the value in protecting it. Germany's Black Forest is another great example of this, and something that could really be achieved in the UK if Scottish landowners could stop prioritising a few wealthy tourists a year with a grouse and deer hunting license.

RE: Boris , who's next

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 27 Jul 2022 19:58:30 GMT

[quote userid="9179" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238415#238415"]I can only commend them. Chile's management of its fishing stocks (effectively banning trawling in the northern half of the country) has led to a surge in sustainable fish stocks both in the north and, by spillover, in the south too this profiting the companies invested in this.[/quote]

That's really interesting

Trawling is awful, that's where your scallops come from. The idea of scraping the bottom with concrete is appauling and is one of the few foods I actively avoid. This will further cement David Mills view of me, but as a member of Greenpeace, i applaud them dropping rocks around the UK coast to stop this madness

Neil

RE: Boris , who's next

Chris Milligan — Wed, 27 Jul 2022 18:28:07 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238386#238386"]Both are self interest[/quote]

Definitely - the interesting thing with both CR and Chile is conservative approaches have found value in directly intervening with environmental protection measures which has proved to be good for both the environment and business. CR markets its rainforests and protects them; Chile is really interesting as it went full force into capitalism and billionaire venturists have effectively sealed off large tracts of wilderness for environmental protection. Maybe billionaires owning vast swathes of land isn't such a great idea, but if they're going to use it like this I can only commend them. Chile's management of its fishing stocks (effectively banning trawling in the northern half of the country) has led to a surge in sustainable fish stocks both in the north and, by spillover, in the south too this profiting the companies invested in this. Dominican republic is a case unto itself - effectively a benign dictatorship with a rightwing governor who happens to also love the environment. The upshot has been green politics (without all the other liberalism shackled to it) seeping into every walk of life. A cursory glance at google maps will show you the level of land protection in DR compared to neighbouring Haiti - i.e. one landscape is green and one is grey-brown.

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238386#238386"]These three observations show just how complicated things are and intertwined everything is. [/quote]

Indeed - the issue is extremely complicated and intertwined with everything. So, as per my first post, why aren't the prospective leaders talking about it?

RE: Boris , who's next

Chris Milligan — Wed, 27 Jul 2022 18:20:59 GMT

[quote userid="4103" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238412#238412"]Besides a small area of wilderness creates more troubles than advantages[/quote]

so we need big areas!

RE: Boris , who's next

Cinzia Gandini — Wed, 27 Jul 2022 17:46:44 GMT

[quote userid="9179" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238410#238410"]UK's land management[/quote]

I don’t believe that either, you talk about grazing vs wilderness which is good compared to building speculation vs wilderness. Besides a small area of wilderness creates more troubles than advantages

RE: Boris , who's next

Chris Milligan — Wed, 27 Jul 2022 16:57:35 GMT

[quote userid="4103" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238382#238382"]I doubt it very much indeed that the UK has the worst environment protection policy in the EU[/quote]

No you're right it doesn't, I was commenting on the UK's land management as being amongst the worst which is part of the wider effort to mitigate climate change which it certainly is compared to most EU countries; scrubbed land cleared of trees and turned to grazing for sheep, insane historical levels of agro run off still not dealt with especially in the south east of england and a reluctance to wholesale manage species diversity loss preferring instead to focus on preservation of tiny SSI or preservation of a handful of species. And the less said about land management practices in the UK's supposed wilderness jewels of Scotland and Wales the better. Sheep are a huge problem in the UK - not for CO2 emissions (UK actually fairly good on that compared to, say, Poland or Germany), but rather for their domination and aggravation of the land management issue. Grazing is pursued at the expense of returning areas to wilderness, suppressing species diversity and preventing the recovery of land. It's also a tremendously cost ineffective industry - in effect the UK is stripping and stalling recovery of affected areas for the sake of subsidising sheep farmers for products that cost more to produce than they make. Doesn't make any sense at all. But there's an awful lot more to protecting the planet than CO2 levels.

RE: Boris , who's next

Cinzia Gandini — Tue, 26 Jul 2022 20:38:22 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next"]hidden by COVID[/quote]

Covid goes damage remains, not for long

RE: Boris , who's next

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 26 Jul 2022 19:57:30 GMT

I haven't been to The Dominican Republic, but a very broad brush observation

[quote userid="9179" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238381#238381"]Costa Rica and Chile all have highly effective and demonstrable strategies for managing some of these issues.[/quote]

Both are self interest

In the case of Costa Rica, they have discovered that having a green country full of wildlife is fantastic for tourism

Chile has a more pressing issue...water. They have few reservoirs relying on snow melt from the Andes and are desperately trying to build them because the snow melt is disappearing

UK and I suspect Europe are masters at exporting our green credentials to achieve net zero. Bear with me on this one as it's a great example

BP is a UK based company. To increase their green credentials they are selling their refineries (I know this from a good friend) to companies with less scruples. If you really drill down on why we are paying more for fuel, it's because the refineries are charging more.Cause and effect

These three observations show just how complicated things are and intertwined everything is.

I feel sorry for politicians, genuinely. They put a green levy on to pay for insulation etc, but this looks like it will go. Take the NI increase, this was to pay for Social Care a longstanding problem, but that's going to go. Politics is so short term, but as voters we encourage this

A bit of a ramble.

Neil

RE: Boris , who's next

Cinzia Gandini — Tue, 26 Jul 2022 17:59:35 GMT

[quote userid="9179" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238381#238381"]worst in Europe[/quote]

I doubt it very much indeed that the UK has the worst environment protection policy in the EU, maybe a bit too many sheep per m2... that produce CO2 ...but again, no I don't believe that give us evidence please

RE: Boris , who's next

Chris Milligan — Tue, 26 Jul 2022 17:29:54 GMT

[quote userid="4103" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238376#238376"]I doubt very much indeed climate change will be a priority, and no the UK is too small to think alone can stop the marmolada collapse unfortunately[/quote]

no country can stop it alone - it requires fundamental changes in the way the whole world works together, which requires every country to do what they can. They did it on PCPs in the 70's when there was a real risk of sudden climate change (a risk that at the time was not understood and since has been lost to history, but decisive international action genuinely narrowly avoided utter catastrophic change).

The UK's management of it's environment, particularly in the realm of species decline, wilderness protection and agricultural policies are amongst the worst in Europe, largely as a result of the way land management is organised in the UK. Of course they're not soly responsible for it (it's a global issue at heart) but the tories are simply not equipped to address these issues, and many are adversely invested in the land ownership issue. Managing temperature change and ocean acidification is a much more global issue of course, but diversity collapse, overproduction of food and agropollution is a highly localised issue and will need to be a cornerstone of any sensible approach to managing our future.

Interestingly, the countries that seem to have managed these local issues best are actually those with centre-right leaning governments getting stuff done. The Dominican Republic, Costa Rica and Chile all have highly effective and demonstrable strategies for managing some of these issues. The problem in western English speaking countries is that environmental protection has become conflated with left-leaning liberal policies and got caught up in the culture war. Which is frustrating if you're an environmentalist and just want to see climate change addressed irrespective of all the other political baggage.

RE: Boris , who's next

Cinzia Gandini — Tue, 26 Jul 2022 16:31:06 GMT

[quote userid="9179" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238375#238375"]tory incumbents[/quote]

The problem is now EU countries will have big problems with lack of gas so I doubt very much indeed climate change will be a priority, and no the UK is too small to think alone can stop the marmolada collapse unfortunately

RE: Boris , who's next

Chris Milligan — Tue, 26 Jul 2022 16:09:17 GMT

[quote userid="4103" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238374#238374"]Glaciers are not collapsing because the UK hasn't got a plan on climate change unfortunately[/quote]

Yes they are, but not just the UK's lack of plan. As we're so often told - we're all in this together. Also, there are plans to tackle things just not from the current batch of tory incumbents.

RE: Boris , who's next

Cinzia Gandini — Tue, 26 Jul 2022 15:53:16 GMT

[quote userid="9179" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238372#238372"]coherent policy on climate change[/quote]

There isn't much that a 93,628 sq mi land can do to fight climate change, practically either bigger places like 3,705,407 sq mi do something or for us is just to say we're green. Glaciers are not collapsing because the UK hasn't got a plan on climate change unfortunately. But sure it's all welcome

RE: Boris , who's next

Chris Milligan — Tue, 26 Jul 2022 15:44:24 GMT

Am I the only one absolutely gobsmacked that in 2022, in the midst of some of the the UK's hottest ever temperatures, and with damning evidence daily from around the world that things are starting to get serious, that neither these two remaining candidates nor anyone else who threw their cap into the ring has a coherent policy on climate change, much less have talked about it? and the public/journalists/other members haven't pressed them on it? Mumbling about net zero once and having a quiet hour long conversation about the vaguaries of weather change just don't cut it. Are we mad?

RE: Boris , who's next

Joyce Whitehead — Mon, 25 Jul 2022 15:52:28 GMT

I agree with Neil, and with Bob (and therefore Richard Osman) that commenting in height is rude. My dad was about 5’5” at his height ( ) and got comments about short man syndrome at times, which he definitely did not have. My son however is 6’5” and is equally fed up of the “wow you’re big” comments (especially when with the rest of us close family as I’m 5’4 and husband is about 5’8, daughter 5’6. I seem to spend my life answering “where did he get the tall genes from?”

Anyway, back to the subject. I am very far from being a Tory, so don’t get a say, but can’t abide Liz Truss, she never seems to know the answer to questions for a start. I suspect Rishi is a very bright bloke so of the two I’d prefer him.

RE: Boris , who's next

bob lehner — Mon, 25 Jul 2022 07:05:34 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238326#238326"]If you do meet a 'short' person , please please please don't comment on it, because I expect they are fed up with being told that.[/quote]

I remember Richard Osman (6'8'') on 'Room 101' - he wanted to put 'people that told him he was tall' into the dark room, as he was so fed up with it.

I was 6'4'' and built like a bean pole when younger (shrunk a bit and fatter now ) - but also got fed up with people observing that I was of an unusual height and build.... I guess many of us are sensitive about our physical appearance.

Anyway - just Google 'Famous short people from history' to see that it is no bar to success.

RE: Boris , who's next

Cinzia Gandini — Sun, 24 Jul 2022 22:36:46 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next"]So who's next?[/quote]

I don't know who but I know what's next, in 2024 the EU funds for farmers will come to an end. Between the two it's a hard choice isn't it. Surely Sunak is more knowledgeable

RE: Boris , who's next

Cinzia Gandini — Sun, 24 Jul 2022 22:29:02 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238330#238330"]commenting on height to a short person[/quote]

height is not defining a person so why should we comment? well if you want to win the beauty contest maybe

RE: Boris , who's next

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 24 Jul 2022 22:25:59 GMT

[quote userid="4103" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238327#238327"]well Rishi Sunack is as tall as Tom Cruise, 1.70... but Tom Cruise has always been considered good looking, so it's not the height[/quote]

That's 5 foot 6 inches, not that short

I've probably gone overboard, but if it triggers even one person to think twice before commenting on height to a short person, I've achieved something

Neil

RE: Boris , who's next

Cinzia Gandini — Sun, 24 Jul 2022 22:14:28 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30346/boris-who-s-next/238326#238326"]a 'short' person[/quote]

well Rishi Sunack is as tall as Tom Cruise, 1.70... but Tom Cruise has always been considered good looking, so it's not the height